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The Flyers & Columbus' 8th Overall pick

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Old
06-08-2011, 09:20 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
It was a joke... perhaps this would have helped.... --->

Carter I don't think is going anywhere. Carle likely - Stegger perhaps.
Ah, ok then. I reacted like that because I actually saw a deal like that on the main board.

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06-08-2011, 09:20 PM
  #102
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Anyone know what Voracek is looking for as far as a contract next year?

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06-08-2011, 11:10 PM
  #103
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I completely forgot that Upshall is in Columbus now.

I could live with him being part of the deal (doubt Columbus would though!)

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06-08-2011, 11:40 PM
  #104
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I completely forgot that Upshall is in Columbus now.

I could live with him being part of the deal (doubt Columbus would though!)
Upshall is an UFA, but I think he would be out of our pricing

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06-09-2011, 01:42 AM
  #105
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What kind of player is Voracek?

Could he be a guy that they could just slide in to replace Leino?
A very tenacious player. Fast, more of a passer, good in his own end. Not super high end, but a very legit player that is just starting to put it all together and could well be a 50-60 point guy next year. In the draft where we took JVR at the time I thought he should have been given consideration for the number 2 spot. He is probably the third best guy taken in the first round that year. Not worth Carter by himself, but I cant imagine that Columbus would package him with the 8th overall for him either.

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06-09-2011, 02:32 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
A very tenacious player. Fast, more of a passer, good in his own end. Not super high end, but a very legit player that is just starting to put it all together and could well be a 50-60 point guy next year. In the draft where we took JVR at the time I thought he should have been given consideration for the number 2 spot. He is probably the third best guy taken in the first round that year. Not worth Carter by himself, but I cant imagine that Columbus would package him with the 8th overall for him either.
Carter is a very valuable commodity, especially for a team like CBJ who are (1) bleeding red ink and (2) desperate for a first-line center.

Carter is a young, legitimate #1 center (strong offensively, solid defensively, and even good on draws), and he's signed long-term at a cap friendly number (5.27M). To illustrate, consider that only Steven Stamkos, Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, and Patrick Marleau have scored more goals over the past three seasons than Carter. That is great company to keep.

Voracek is a nice piece, but he hasn't blossomed in the CBJ organization. He's a RFA, so you're only getting his rights, making him less valuable. The #8 pick is another nice piece, but this is a mediocre draft in terms of top-end talent. This pick isn't worth what it would have been several years ago, or will be next year.

In all honesty, I don't think Voracek + #8 pick will be viewed as fair market value for Carter, not after someone like Versteeg commanded a first and a third. If this deal gets done, I'd expect it to look something like:

Carter & Carle

for

Voracek, Filatov/Moore, #8 pick, (lower-level prospect/later pick).

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06-09-2011, 06:59 AM
  #107
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I wouldnt mind Carter for Voracek, 8th, Nicolas Deschamps or other prospects/draft picks

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06-09-2011, 07:26 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
A very tenacious player. Fast, more of a passer, good in his own end. Not super high end, but a very legit player that is just starting to put it all together and could well be a 50-60 point guy next year. In the draft where we took JVR at the time I thought he should have been given consideration for the number 2 spot. He is probably the third best guy taken in the first round that year. Not worth Carter by himself, but I cant imagine that Columbus would package him with the 8th overall for him either.
Basically Ville Leino with more speed?

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06-09-2011, 09:19 AM
  #109
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Carter <-> 8th + Voracek

DO IT AND RUN!!!

That would be great deal for this situation. We could sign Bryz.

Using 62.2 as a cap

Quote:
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.500m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Darroll Powe ($0.900m)
Andreas Nodl ($0.900m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Kris Versteeg ($3.083m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Jody Shelley ($1.100m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.300m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,159,761; BONUSES: $1,700,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $40,239
would be great. Not sure will powe or nödl sign 900k and Voracek 2.5. Lets hope for greater cap. If tight waiv Shelley

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Basically Ville Leino with more speed?
And better in own zone and higher potential.

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06-09-2011, 10:28 AM
  #110
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Blue Jackets: Philadelphia center is top trade target for Howson

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Multiple sources have said that the Blue Jackets and Flyers have discussed a trade that would send Jeff Carter to the Jackets for the 8th overall pick in the 2011 NHL draft and a top 6 forward, presumably RFA winger Jake Voracek. It’s likely not to be finalized until draft day, June 24th. Carter carries a $5.27 million cap hit for 11 years. The Blue Jackets are looking to make a big move as they’ve missed the playoffs 9 of 10 years, and attendance decreased by 2,000 last year. The Jackets and Flyers have been talking trade since January, and picked up at the NHL scouting combine. The Blue Jackets have also talked with the Edmonton Oilers about the 8th overall pick, possibly about Ales Hemsky and/or Tom Gilbert.

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live/...n.html?sid=101
If this happens I will be dancing to this song in honor of all the Carter fans...


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06-09-2011, 10:30 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
If this happens I will be dancing to this song in honor of all the Carter fans...

We get it, you hate Carter and want him gone.

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06-09-2011, 10:37 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We get it, you hate Carter and want him gone.
How cute....no more Cartsiephan to play with so the default Cartsiephan rebuttal is trotted out once again.

Nope ...I've always expressed why I think Carter should be moved..has more to do with business (cap issues etc) then red herring hate BS.

It also makes sense given what Meltzer laid out with respect to the cap quandry the Flyers find themselves in if they want to put a team out on the ice with some decent depth..

Below is a snippet.

Quote:
Using the Capgeek.com calculator, I looked at what it would take to get Ville Leino signed and remain under the cap (just barely) if Bryzgalov is signed. Herein lies the real problem.

In crunching the numbers, it's going to be virtually impossible -- without additional trades -- to keep Leino or sign a comparable replacement and remain cap compliant.

Let's suppose that the six-year contract with the $5.67 million cap hit would be agreeable to Bryzgalov. Then add in the CBA-required 10 percent raises for restricted free agents Andreas Nödl and Darroll Powe.

With Nodl, because his base salary of $650,000 — total salary of $735,000 minus signing bonus of $85,000 — is less than $660,000, it is increased by 10 percent for the purposes of his qualifying offer. As a result, the minimum the Flyers could sign him for would be $715,000. With Powe, the qualifying offer would be $761,250.

Now suppose the Flyers were to waive Jody Shelley ($1.1 million) and not resign Dan Carcillo ($1.075 million). The Flyers could start the season with Tom Sestito ($635,520 figuring in a 10 percent raise) and Zac Rinaldo ($544,444) as cheaper alternatives to the "toughness" roles in the lineup.

On the blueline, the team may well have to replace UFA veteran Sean O'Donnell ($1.3 million) with either Oskars Bartulis ($600,000) or Erik Gustafsson ($900,000). In terms of backup goaltending, the team will waive Michael Leighton ($1.55 million) so long as Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.75 million without a bonus cushion) is not traded.

That would still leave a maximum of just $1,885,717 toward filling Leino's roster spot, and that won't be nearly enough to sign him. If the bonus cushion were to remain in place, however, the Flyers could go up to about $3.25 million for Leino -- but that would force the team to carry just 12 forwards and 6 defensemen, creating hassles every time there is an injury and severely limiting the Flyers' trading ability.

It is also worth noting again that James van Riemsdyk will be a restricted free agent after next season and Braydon Coburn and Matt Carle will both be unrestricted free agents.

Unless the club were to make one of those rumored deals involving a high-salaried player without a no-trade clause in his contract, you may well be looking at Matt Read ($900,000) in the Leino spot in the lineup and with players such as Sestito and Rinaldo rounding out the lineup on the fourth line.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...-math/45/36296

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06-09-2011, 10:48 AM
  #113
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Below is a snippet.
So every million we save in Carter trade goes to Leino. If Voracek is 2million cheaper than Carter we could sign Leino?

This is great.

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06-09-2011, 10:50 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
How cute....no more Cartsiephan to play with so the default Cartsiephan rebuttal is trotted out once again.

Nope ...I've always expressed why I think Carter should be moved..has more to do with business (cap issues etc) then red herring hate BS.

It also makes sense given what Meltzer laid out with respect to the cap quandry the Flyers find themselves in if they want to put a team out on the ice with some decent depth..

Below is a snippet.
Setting a precedent by trading away a player who just signed a 11 year deal at a hometown discount without that player playing a year of that contract is a worse business decision. Why would anyone ever look for an extension with us after that? Why would a free agent seeking long term security come here?

I'd rather go into the next year with Read or Wellwood replacing Leino than trade Carter. I feel like people are forgetting how utterly useless HBL was after the all-star break.

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06-09-2011, 11:01 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
Setting a precedent by trading away a player who just signed a 11 year deal at a hometown discount without that player playing a year of that contract is a worse business decision. Why would anyone ever look for an extension with us after that? Why would a free agent seeking long term security come here?

I'd rather go into the next year with Read or Wellwood replacing Leino than trade Carter. I feel like people are forgetting how utterly useless HBL was after the all-star break.
The business of business ...is business. Sadly no room for ethics sometimes..not saying it's always right but it is what it is. Lots of business people operate amorally ..the curious thing is that rumor has it that the Flyers feel they owe something to Leino to sign him if you believe Eklund and his sources. Anyway, not sure it's all about sacrificing Carter for Leino...it's about cap flexibility too. They might have some other moves they want to make to not have to scramble all the time to be cap compliant or be hemmed in when they need to make a serious trade. Again I think they are factoring in leaving some more breathing space due to the Pronger situation. The LTIR will only serve them so much since Pronger could be in and out of the lineup and not necessarily shelved for any extended period.

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06-09-2011, 11:08 AM
  #116
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Jesus.

Carter is UN LIKELY to be moved. He and Richards will more than likely be Flyers until they retire. That is why the LONG contract he signed. He WANTS to be here. Richards wants him here. Homer wants him here.

Yea it may look great 'business' wise - but it may be BAD business to trade him, then you have a brooding Richards - we don't want that.

Carle and Versteeg are the best possible candidates to be moved.

Leino's head can fit through the door now, so let him walk - unless we get rid of BOTH Carle and Steeg (who I'd like to see stay)

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06-09-2011, 11:22 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
Setting a precedent by trading away a player who just signed a 11 year deal at a hometown discount without that player playing a year of that contract is a worse business decision. Why would anyone ever look for an extension with us after that? Why would a free agent seeking long term security come here?

I'd rather go into the next year with Read or Wellwood replacing Leino than trade Carter. I feel like people are forgetting how utterly useless HBL was after the all-star break.
Why is Carter getting moved in the first year of his fancy contract suddenly the line you cross where people won't want to sign here?

Gagne was a hometown hero for years and signed what was - at the time - a fairly decent contract. He wanted to play here until he retired, he loved it here, the fans loved him. And then he gets pressured into waiving his NMC to go elsewhere. Why would anyone want to come here seeking long term security after that?


Trades happen. If Carter has to be moved so the team can address its most significant weakness, players won't suddenly think the Flyers are some classless organization waiting to hock its players elsewhere. Players understand that trades are sometimes necessary; it's nothing personal, sometimes they just need to be made.

*Note: I do not think Carter is actually going anywhere, but find the notion that suddenly, this trade will make players hate the Flyers to be ridiculous.

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06-09-2011, 11:29 AM
  #118
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Lets say we move Carter + Carle for Voracek + #8 + medium prospect? Sign Gagne?

Gagne [2.5] - Richards [5.75] - Nodl [1.1]
Hartnell [4.2] - Briere [6.5] - Leino [2.2]
JVR [1.6] - Giroux [3.75] - Voracek [1.2]
Shelley [1.1] - Betts [0.7] - Powe/AHL Player/FA [0.6]


Pronger [5.0] - #8 pick? [~1.2]
Coburn [3.2] - Timonen [6.3]
O'Donnell/Vet Dman [1.3] - Meszaros [4.0]

Bryz [5.5]
Bob [1.75]


That right there is ~59.5 million
Gags wont sign for 2.5 mil let alone sign a contract with Holmgren here in Philly.
Leino has already turned down 3 mil a year so why would he now agree to even less???
Voracek is an RFA and will be looking at getting at least 2.5 mil and probably closer to 3 mil.
The #8 pick, if playing in the NHL as an 18-year old, will be making 3.75 mil on his ELC.

If you want that lineup then you'd have to add at least 6 mil to your totals right now and that would both be over the cap limit and not leave any room for a 13th forward, 7th dman, or injury call-ups.

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06-09-2011, 11:42 AM
  #119
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The best scenario for the Flyers would be to trade Hartnell & Carle and let Leino walk. The Habs have a need for a guy like Hartnell and we could probably get their 2012 1st for him. I think we could trade Carle + our 2012 1st to CBJ for the #8 pick this year CBJ 2012 2nd. CBJ has a need for qualitly dmen and Carle would help them out. I'd then see if I could package the #8 pick + the two 2nds in 2012 to move up into the top 4 this year and take the top defensive prospect available.

Versteeg NEEDS to stay because if he leaves then we MUST play either Carter or JVR on Richards wing and that would seriously limit the offensive production of those 2 guys (something I am very much againt). Carter and JVR are our only 2 solid 2-way forwards after Richards and Versteeg. We CAN'T place the entire responsibility for shutting down guys like Crosby on Richards' shoulders without giving him any real help at all.

Briere needs to go back out to the wing and Carter needs to be in the center.

Versteeg & Richards on the shut-down line
Carter & Briere on the top scoring line
JVR & Giroux on the 2nd scoring line

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06-09-2011, 11:45 AM
  #120
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I guess I just struggle to understand why people look at Carter...see the guy who is 4th in the league for scoring in the last 3 seasons, can play 2 positions, and is good on defense...they see he is signed for a very friendly cap hit that only gets friendlier as time goes on...and they think TRADE HIM. He's one of the best 2-way players in the league; it's in the Flyers' best interests to keep him, not pawn him off for younger less proven players.

Should Washington trade Ovechkin? I mean, with his cap hit off the books, and with his value, they could get crazy-good players back!

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06-09-2011, 11:49 AM
  #121
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We CAN'T place the entire responsibility for shutting down guys like Crosby on Richards' shoulders without giving him any real help at all.
Meh...our last line of defense Bryzgalov (if signed of course) will stone those losers anyway...

I suspect though there is going to be some kind of multiple team and player trade at the draft. Flyers, Columbus, Florida..Toronto etc. Players will be flying all over the place. Maybe Carter somehow stays put but depends on what teams throw at Holmgren.

If Holmgren somehow puts together a masterful multiplayer transaction(s)...personally I think his brain will be so burned out and he will have lost ten years of his life that he'll be forced to retire immediately after the trade(s)...

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06-09-2011, 11:50 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I guess I just struggle to understand why people look at Carter...see the guy who is 4th in the league for scoring in the last 3 seasons, can play 2 positions, and is good on defense...they see he is signed for a very friendly cap hit that only gets friendlier as time goes on...and they think TRADE HIM. He's one of the best 2-way players in the league; it's in the Flyers' best interests to keep him, not pawn him off for younger less proven players.

Should Washington trade Ovechkin? I mean, with his cap hit off the books, and with his value, they could get crazy-good players back!
Another false equivalency...Carter = Ovechkin????

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06-09-2011, 11:51 AM
  #123
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Another false equivalency...Carter = Ovechkin????
It's the same idea.

"This guy has great value, so we should trade him since we'd get the most back."

Also like OV...Carter is more valuable to the Flyers ON the team than he would be off it.

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06-09-2011, 11:54 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's the same idea.

"This guy has great value, so we should trade him since we'd get the most back."

Also like OV...Carter is more valuable to the Flyers ON the team than he would be off it.
Not really b/c again Ovechkin is not comparable to Carter and you cannot compare our situation and multiple needs or cap situation to that of Washington. Two different teams with different needs and options to address those needs. You are exaggerating things...

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06-09-2011, 11:58 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Should Washington trade Ovechkin? I mean, with his cap hit off the books, and with his value, they could get crazy-good players back!
if Ovechkin was a Flyer people would whine over his high and wide or his low and outside shot attempts.

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