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2011 NHL Entry Draft/Other Prospects (All NON-RANGERS Prospect Discussion - Part 3) ‎

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06-09-2011, 07:32 PM
  #826
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Love the amateur scouts on this site...

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06-09-2011, 07:34 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by RangerBlues View Post
If you watched Chara when he played for the Islanders that was the extent of his game. The Islanders would run commercials of him crushing opponents. The best thing that ever happened to him was getting traded away from Milbury
I watched plenty. That's really not true. Of course, they would run commercials like that. Big hits is how you attract people who don't really give a **** about hockey, but that doesn't mean that's all he did on the ice. As big as he is, though, it's also easier for him than anyone else to rack up hits, especially pre-lockout before the rule changes.

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06-09-2011, 07:35 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I watched plenty. That's really not true. Of course, they would run commercials like that. Big hits is how you attract people who don't really give a **** about hockey, but that doesn't mean that's all he did on the ice. As big as he is, though, it's also easier for him than anyone else to rack up hits, especially pre-lockout before the rule changes.
Chara was an absolute mess. My isles fan friends don't even get on Milbury for that one because of how ***** he was at the time.

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06-09-2011, 07:43 PM
  #829
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Chara was an absolute mess. My isles fan friends don't even get on Milbury for that one because of how ***** he was at the time.
I'm not arguing that he wasn't a mess, but you're missing the point. There is a fundamental aspect of the game that Chara, as raw as he was, still had. Again, he was adjusting to a new rink, he was also playing on a joke of a team that was horrendously coached.

You can play poorly but still show signs that you have the basis upon which to build something. Chara had it. He had the basic understanding, and that's not surprising, as European hockey starts with learning positioning. I don't believe McIlrath has that basis, because in North American hockey, that emphasis isn't there, and coaches at minor/junior levels of hockey encourage physical specimens to run wild and win rather than trying to rein them in and lay a foundation. In European hockey, it is different, because you are playing your entire teenage life usually for the same club. They have a goal, and it is to develop you into the best player you can be for the club's top level. That doesn't happen in NA hockey, where the coach at every level cares mainly about winning.

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06-09-2011, 07:49 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
If we draft a center or a left wing this year isn't that drafting for a need?
I've never advocated drafting based on need, I've said numerous times that if a dman is the BPA, take the dman. So if we take a center or LW this year, I'm assuming that it is the highest ranked player available

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06-09-2011, 07:57 PM
  #831
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I'm not arguing that he wasn't a mess, but you're missing the point. There is a fundamental aspect of the game that Chara, as raw as he was, still had. Again, he was adjusting to a new rink, he was also playing on a joke of a team that was horrendously coached.

You can play poorly but still show signs that you have the basis upon which to build something. Chara had it. He had the basic understanding, and that's not surprising, as European hockey starts with learning positioning. I don't believe McIlrath has that basis, because in North American hockey, that emphasis isn't there, and coaches at minor/junior levels of hockey encourage physical specimens to run wild and win rather than trying to rein them in and lay a foundation. In European hockey, it is different, because you are playing your entire teenage life usually for the same club. They have a goal, and it is to develop you into the best player you can be for the club's top level. That doesn't happen in NA hockey, where the coach at every level cares mainly about winning.
I'm sure you were able to look at the player Chara was when he was 19 and determine he was going to be the player he is now.

: laugh:

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06-09-2011, 07:58 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I'm not arguing that he wasn't a mess, but you're missing the point. There is a fundamental aspect of the game that Chara, as raw as he was, still had. Again, he was adjusting to a new rink, he was also playing on a joke of a team that was horrendously coached.

You can play poorly but still show signs that you have the basis upon which to build something. Chara had it. He had the basic understanding, and that's not surprising, as European hockey starts with learning positioning. I don't believe McIlrath has that basis, because in North American hockey, that emphasis isn't there, and coaches at minor/junior levels of hockey encourage physical specimens to run wild and win rather than trying to rein them in and lay a foundation. In European hockey, it is different, because you are playing your entire teenage life usually for the same club. They have a goal, and it is to develop you into the best player you can be for the club's top level. That doesn't happen in NA hockey, where the coach at every level cares mainly about winning.
Well whatever those fundamentals were he sure as **** didn't show them on the island.

People on this board are hilarious. Piss on their own prospects just so they can hope to one day say "HA HA I Was right" while their favorite team suffers, instead of hoping they're wrong and that the guys who get paid to do this (Clarke, Gorton) are actually right. But they couldn't be right could they?

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06-09-2011, 08:07 PM
  #833
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Couple of things about McIlrath.

The Rangers didn't draft him to be a one dimensional defenseman. I'm not saying they're expecting him to become Weber, but they drafted him because they saw "huge guy who plays a rough game, but can skate well and looks like he has the tools to develop into a two way player in the similar mold of guys like Girardi and Staal"

That's not to say he'll be as good as Staal, but that I believe they're looking for basically the super physical version of a Dan Girardi or something. A guy who is a warrior and can play good defense and move the puck well enough, but with McIlrath, has the added bonus of beating the crap out of opponents along the boards, in front of the net, and in the open ice.

I do agree that you don't want him to always be going for the big hit, but again, he's a kid...lots of young defenseman need to learn that going for the big hit all the time isn't the best idea, even if they're otherwise skilled and smart players. It's part of the maturation process.

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06-09-2011, 08:26 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by RangerBlues View Post
I'm sure you were able to look at the player Chara was when he was 19 and determine he was going to be the player he is now.

: laugh:
I never said I did. Please try to respond to what people are actually saying.

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Well whatever those fundamentals were he sure as **** didn't show them on the island.
Sure he did. One needs to know what to look for to spot them, however.

Quote:
People on this board are hilarious. Piss on their own prospects just so they can hope to one day say "HA HA I Was right" while their favorite team suffers, instead of hoping they're wrong and that the guys who get paid to do this (Clarke, Gorton) are actually right. But they couldn't be right could they?
That's an asinine thing to say. I don't think McIlrath was a good pick. So should I instead hide my feelings (feelings that have been echoed by scouts that I know on a personal and professional level, by the way)? When I praise other picks that I do like, for example Thomas and Fasth from the same 2010 draft, should I lie then also? Should I pretend I don't like them?

I hope I'm wrong, but why should that prevent me from sharing my opinion? My opinion isn't why my favorite team might be suffering.

What I think is hilarious is when people who don't know what they're talking about piss on other people who just might. I'm not a scout, so I must know nothing, right?


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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I do agree that you don't want him to always be going for the big hit, but again, he's a kid...lots of young defenseman need to learn that going for the big hit all the time isn't the best idea, even if they're otherwise skilled and smart players. It's part of the maturation process.
If you look at most of the best defensemen in the league, they have this understanding embedded in them before they get to the NHL. This is such a fundamental part of the game, something that must become instinctual, that it is imperative that it be ingrained in the player at an early age. It's a lot harder to change bad habits like that at an older age.

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06-09-2011, 08:30 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I never said I did. Please try to respond to what people are actually saying rather.



Sure he did. One needs to know what to look for to spot them, however.



That's an asinine thing to say. I don't think McIlrath was a good pick. So should I instead hide my feelings (feelings that have been echoed by scouts that I know on a personal and professional level, by the way)? When I praise other picks that I do like, for example Thomas and Fasth from the same 2010 draft, should I lie then also? Should I pretend I don't like them?

I hope I'm wrong, but why should that prevent me from sharing my opinion? My opinion isn't why my favorite team might be suffering.

What I think is hilarious is when people who don't know what they're talking about piss on other people who just might. I'm not a scout, so I must know nothing, right?
Yeah you know how to spot them
Hmm, who to trust, somebody who gets paid, or some ******* on a message board?

you don't hope your wrong, otherwise you wouldn't be waging an all out war against him. If you don't like the pick, fine. Having an opinion is one thing, but you're on some kind of mission to convince everyone else how good you are at spotting talent and how terrible McIlrath is.

He's been picked. He's a Ranger. Get over it.

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06-09-2011, 08:42 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
Yeah you know how to spot them
Hmm, who to trust, somebody who gets paid, or some ******* on a message board?
You are absolutely right. Only a professional scout can have a valid opinion. Sports are so difficult to understand, how could anyone else possibly have anything credible to add?

Quote:
you don't hope your wrong, otherwise you wouldn't be waging an all out war against him. If you don't like the pick, fine. Having an opinion is one thing, but you're on some kind of mission to convince everyone else how good you are at spotting talent and how terrible McIlrath is.
If I'm on a mission, it's to convince people that drafting big tall defensemen with terrible hockey IQ with the 11th pick in the draft is a terrible decision. If I was looking to convince someone of my ability to spot talent or evaluate roster moves, that goal would have been accomplished a long time ago.

Quote:
He's been picked. He's a Ranger. Get over it.
Some people don't believe that being a fan means falling all over yourself to glorify every single thing your favorite team does. There are always going to be people that have more insight into things than others do. Like, for example, someone that can't spot Chara's grasp of fundamental, basic principles that govern defensive hockey, is someone who doesn't have a very deep understanding of the sport, IMO.

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06-09-2011, 08:43 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well that's fine for you, assuming that all scouts are "with you." Be certain that this is not the case, however.



This doesn't have any bearing on the discussion at hand. It doesn't change the fact that one dimensional role players like McIlrath are available later in the draft.



Lawyers, even the worst ones, have to pass exams. Just because a player can play, it doesn't mean he can coach/put together a team/commentate about the game/evaluate other player's ability to play. But I know for a fact that some scouts are not tested, simply given the job based on their own playing career, and who they know and are friends with.



Taking a risk on a Savard with a lottery pick makes perfect sense. Taking a risk on a Beukeboom does not. And McIlrath is no Beukeboom.



No, buddy, it's not that I have so much knowledge. It's that you have absolutely none.



Really? That's what I said, that Chara was a finished product as a prospect? Or is what I said that Chara understands the fundamental concepts at play for a defenseman, and that McIlrath doesn't?

Chara, who began his carer playing for some absolutely horrendous Islanders teams with some disgusting coaching, also had to make the adjustment from bigger rinks to smaller rinks. Yes, he was raw, but he had the foundation. The most basic principles that a defenseman must understand: positioning and timing. When to make what play. When to hit, when not to hit, when and where to force puckhandlers to go so as to eliminate possibilities from their arsenal. That's what good defensemen do. What good defensemen don't do is rush head first at the puck carrier the moment he enters the zone and try to hit him. That's what McIlrath does, because he tries to overwhelm boys with his size. That's not going to work in the NHL.



From watching him. On a regular basis? No, but enough to see the patterns. It is not a coincidence that the best defensemen, especially these days, relegate the hit to the status of an occasional tool that you whip out when the opportunity presents itself. The worst defensemen, bar none, are the defensemen that have no regard for positioning, that look for the hit every time down the ice. These are the players that rack up the most hits, but also give up the most breakways and odd man rushes, expend the most energy, and suffer the most injuries, many of which are avoidable if not for their reckless and poorly planned style of play.
When McIIrath is a star on Broadway will you have the balls to admit that you are wrong?

It took Chara 5-6 years to become a good NHL dman and then another 2-3 to become a great dman...

You have seen the kid play 10 games at the very best and if you say more than that your are probably lying...

BTW wasn't it Clark that drafted Chara, you think maybe he knows a little bit more about this stuff then someone who sits in front of his computer blogging all day and night.

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06-09-2011, 08:45 PM
  #838
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Chara was fundamentally horrible on LI, and you have no credibility saying you saw it all the way back when. It's easy to have a selective memory. Chara was big, raw, and was pretty bad back then...the fact is nobody really knew he'd turn out like he did. All there was was the possibility - that's all there ever is. Now, good scouts can maybe slant things in their favor by being good at what they do, but projecting talent, growth, etc etc is very difficult to do. Nobody's gonna be right all the time.

This leads me to...can we really say what we have in McIlrath? You can't say he'll be a star, nor can you say he'll be horrible...nobody knows. Having said this, Clarke has had an above average track record here, so I think the chances are at least decent that he'll develop nicely.

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06-09-2011, 08:48 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
You are absolutely right. Only a professional scout can have a valid opinion. Sports are so difficult to understand, how could anyone else possibly have anything credible to add?

I just gotta understand, how do you see yourself in the context of this world? as some sort of great hockey mind who never got a shot?

If I'm on a mission, it's to convince people that drafting big tall defensemen with terrible hockey IQ with the 11th pick in the draft is a terrible decision. If I was looking to convince someone of my ability to spot talent or evaluate roster moves, that goal would have been accomplished a long time ago.

Great, and at the end of the day, you have ABSOLUTELY NO SAY IN WHAT THE ORGANIZATION DOES. If McIlrath busts then they aren't gonna call you up and be like "listen man, you KNOW hockey, you've expressed as much on a hockey message board so you must be a great eye for talent, who do we draft next?"

Some people don't believe that being a fan means falling all over yourself to glorify every single thing your favorite team does. There are always going to be people that have more insight into things than others do. Like, for example, someone that can't spot Chara's grasp of fundamental, basic principles that govern defensive hockey, is someone who doesn't have a very deep understanding of the sport, IMO.

Listen man, keep at it, you'll get to the show one day.

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06-09-2011, 08:49 PM
  #840
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I was not thrilled with the McIlrath pick at all. But I do see and understand what the Ranger scouts see in him and why he was picked.
I believe he is a NHL player. That can mean a bottom pairing D man/enforcer. If thats what he turns into, they reached for him too soon.
Anything better than that where he was drafted is justifiable.

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06-09-2011, 08:52 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
Chara was fundamentally horrible on LI, and you have no credibility saying you saw it all the way back when. It's easy to have a selective memory. Chara was big, raw, and was pretty bad back then...the fact is nobody really knew he'd turn out like he did. All there was was the possibility - that's all there ever is. Now, good scouts can maybe slant things in their favor by being good at what they do, but projecting talent, growth, etc etc is very difficult to do. Nobody's gonna be right all the time.

This leads me to...can we really say what we have in McIlrath? You can't say he'll be a star, nor can you say he'll be horrible...nobody knows. Having said this, Clarke has had an above average track record here, so I think the chances are at least decent that he'll develop nicely.
Sting, you are getting it handed to you tonight...better run along...

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06-09-2011, 09:09 PM
  #842
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When McIIrath is a star on Broadway will you have the balls to admit that you are wrong?

It took Chara 5-6 years to become a good NHL dman and then another 2-3 to become a great dman...

You have seen the kid play 10 games at the very best and if you say more than that your are probably lying...

BTW wasn't it Clark that drafted Chara, you think maybe he knows a little bit more about this stuff then someone who sits in front of his computer blogging all day and night.
I don't blog at all, actually. I work and go to school, but not surprisingly, once again, you are missing the point.

What will you admit when he doesn't become a star? That you've NEVER seen him play even once? I've seen him play significantly more than 10 times, but you're welcome to think I'm lying. I know elementary school students that understand hockey better than you. You can think I'm lying about that, too.

Quote:
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Chara was fundamentally horrible on LI, and you have no credibility saying you saw it all the way back when. It's easy to have a selective memory. Chara was big, raw, and was pretty bad back then...the fact is nobody really knew he'd turn out like he did. All there was was the possibility - that's all there ever is. Now, good scouts can maybe slant things in their favor by being good at what they do, but projecting talent, growth, etc etc is very difficult to do. Nobody's gonna be right all the time.

This leads me to...can we really say what we have in McIlrath? You can't say he'll be a star, nor can you say he'll be horrible...nobody knows. Having said this, Clarke has had an above average track record here, so I think the chances are at least decent that he'll develop nicely.
I never said I knew how Chara would turn out. I never said Chara wasn't bad, or raw. What I said was the had a fundamental base, and if you don't think he did, well, then I don't think you have any credibility. I never thought Chara would be as good as he is, but I saw that Chara had a base from which to grow. A base that is bigger than the one McIlrath has. Chara didn't run around sacrificing position to go for hits every time the other team had the puck. He didn't execute properly, for sure.

And AFAIC, you most certainly can make a good educated guess about what kind of player McIlrath will become, because if you look at the history of the game, it's a lot harder for players who don't have those fundamentals by the time they are drafted to develop them than for players that already do. Drafting players who don't have that, whether they are forwards or defensemen, is a big, big risk.

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I was not thrilled with the McIlrath pick at all. But I do see and understand what the Ranger scouts see in him and why he was picked.
I believe he is a NHL player. That can mean a bottom pairing D man/enforcer. If thats what he turns into, they reached for him too soon.
Anything better than that where he was drafted is justifiable.
I don't disagree. He will be an NHL player, but I feel that he will be a bottom pairing type D. A guy that is physically intimidating but is nothing spectacular as far as playing actual defense goes, which is why the pick bothers me so much. I'm all for drafting/acquiring players like him, just not with the 11th pick. Hell, there were better players in the same draft that do the same things he does.

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Listen man, keep at it, you'll get to the show one day.
I grew up around hockey, man. I never asked for a shot. Great hockey mind? I don't think there is any such thing. There is simply intelligence, and varying degrees of it. And if you are an intelligent person, then it doesn't take very much to understand sports. Sports aren't very complicated, unless you aren't very intelligent.

I'm just wondering...you've been here a month. Do you plan on contributing anything to the boards, or are you going to be another one of those people that try to tell people how they should or shouldn't be fans? Let me let you in on a little secret. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. Ignore button. For me, being a fan means being honest. That'll never change for me. You don't like it, take your own advice: get over it.

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06-09-2011, 09:13 PM
  #843
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Sting, you are getting it handed to you tonight...better run along...
If anyone shares an opinion that is in line with one presented by you, that alone should be enough to prove that the person's opinion is lacking in credibility.

Considering the frequency with which YOUR opinions are ripped to shreds and shown for the complete and utter ******** that they are, I'm genuinely surprised that you still post here.

But hey, don't leave. You're the comic relief.

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06-09-2011, 09:15 PM
  #844
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I grew up around hockey, man. I never asked for a shot. Great hockey mind? I don't think there is any such thing. There is simply intelligence, and varying degrees of it. And if you are an intelligent person, then it doesn't take very much to understand sports. Sports aren't very complicated, unless you aren't very intelligent.

I'm just wondering...you've been here a month. Do you plan on contributing anything to the boards, or are you going to be another one of those people that try to tell people how they should or shouldn't be fans? Let me let you in on a little secret. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. Ignore button. For me, being a fan means being honest. That'll never change for me. You don't like it, take your own advice: get over it.
Right, you got the intelligence, you see all the angles, thats why you feel you gotta remind people of that over and over.
There's a distinct difference between being a fan and being a whiney baby about something that you have absolutely no control over, or never will. Be a man.

BTW, as has been pointed out, the example your using of chara was picked by the same guy who picked McIlrath. Kinda of weakens it - a lot.

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06-09-2011, 09:16 PM
  #845
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I grew up around hockey, man. I never asked for a shot. Great hockey mind? I don't think there is any such thing. There is simply intelligence, and varying degrees of it. And if you are an intelligent person, then it doesn't take very much to understand sports. Sports aren't very complicated, unless you aren't very intelligent.
Apparently if an NHL team isn't signing your paycheck your opinion counts for diddly around here. Weren't you aware that pro scouts are always 100% right Sting? They're...professionals!

It may be a message board filled with amateurs, but that doesn't mean that there aren't intelligient, well-informed opinions to be had if you sift through all the other noise.

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06-09-2011, 09:21 PM
  #846
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Apparently if an NHL team isn't signing your paycheck your opinion counts for diddly around here. Weren't you aware that pro scouts are always 100% right Sting? They're...professionals!

It may be a message board filled with amateurs, but that doesn't mean that there aren't intelligient, well-informed opinions to be had if you sift through all the other noise.

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06-09-2011, 09:21 PM
  #847
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Apparently if an NHL team isn't signing your paycheck your opinion counts for diddly around here. Weren't you aware that pro scouts are always 100% right Sting? They're...professionals!

It may be a message board filled with amateurs, but that doesn't mean that there aren't intelligient, well-informed opinions to be had if you sift through all the other noise.
Theres a difference between having an opinion, and making grandiose claims about how superior one's hockey knowledge is, on a message board, which is tantamount to what that guy is doing.

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06-09-2011, 09:26 PM
  #848
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Right, you got the intelligence, you see all the angles, thats why you feel you gotta remind people of that over and over.
There's a distinct difference between being a fan and being a whiney baby about something that you have absolutely no control over, or never will. Be a man.

BTW, as has been pointed out, the example your using of chara was picked by the same guy who picked McIlrath. Kinda of weakens it - a lot.
Aren't you the one whining because someone is sharing an opinion that doesn't match up with yours? Be a man and accept that some people do things differently than you do. Don't like it? Don't read it.

I don't have all the intelligence or see all the angles, but I am very confident in my opinions where hockey is concerned. You'll notice that I rarely post in the baseball thread. Why? Because, while I watch baseball and consider myself a fan, there is much I don't know. So I don't give an opinion, because I know my opinion there isn't worth much. When it comes to hockey, I know my opinion is worth something. You may not think so, but the people who are the end all for you - the people who get paid to do this - they seem to think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyrfan444 View Post
Apparently if an NHL team isn't signing your paycheck your opinion counts for diddly around here. Weren't you aware that pro scouts are always 100% right Sting? They're...professionals!

It may be a message board filled with amateurs, but that doesn't mean that there aren't intelligient, well-informed opinions to be had if you sift through all the other noise.
And your opinion is one of those intelligent, well-informed ones.

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06-09-2011, 09:28 PM
  #849
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
Theres a difference between having an opinion, and making grandiose claims about how superior one's hockey knowledge is, on a message board, which is tantamount to what that guy is doing.
I gave an opinion. You attacked me for having it. I didn't say anything about intelligence until you attacked mine.

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06-09-2011, 09:32 PM
  #850
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I gave an opinion. You attacked me for having it. I didn't say anything about intelligence until you attacked mine.
You state your "opinions" like facts.

Listen, at the end of the day, what you know or don't know about hockey doesn't mean a lick to me. Because at the end of the day I know that not one ounce of that "knowledge" will ever effect any professional sports franchise, even if you'd like to think that it would

And at the end of the day, McIlrath is STILL gonna be a Ranger, which I'm loving even more now because I know how much it bothers you that he is!

When I want an opinion on rocket science, i'll trust that of a rocket scientist, not a fan of rocket science who is on a computer posting on a message board about "how much he knows about rocket science"
Thanks

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