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Old
06-10-2011, 10:26 AM
  #76
I am the Liquor
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Originally Posted by tmack224 View Post
You do know that just becuase someone is drafted first overall doesnt make them better then every player in the league right? HAll had a pretty good year I think hes gonna be a great player dont get me wrong. He still has a lot to prove as does Myers but I personally would take Myers over Hall any day of the week on my team. Players like Myers are almost impossible to come by. Pretty much every Team has a Hall type player on it.
Yes two time Memorial Cup mvp's are a dime a dozen.

Good call.

I will await your list of "Hall" type players for all thirty teams.

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06-10-2011, 10:29 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Hahaha!

Hall? Get real, Myers had an elite rookie season, much better then halls.

myers is only behind Doughty when it comes to young d-men.

I laugh at you including Hall with Kovy.
Like Myers more if you want but you don't need to bash Hall to make a point.

Hall was the Oilers best forward this season and the main focus of the opposition on many nights since Hemsky was injured. He created his own chances and was dominant on many nights. After going goalless in the first 7 games of his career, he had 22 goals/41 points in the final 58 games of the season. That's a 31 goal/58 point pace. To have that kind run at 18/19 years old is impressive.

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Old
06-10-2011, 10:35 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Where was Myers playing as an 18yr old?

That's what I thought.

He wasnt even in the top thirty in scoring for dmen this year.
Hall turned 19 a month into the season, Myers was 19 his calder winning year. Thats what I thought.

Btw, hall scored 42 points (52 point 82 gp pace) on a basement Terrible team. Myers scored 48 on a division winner as a d-man, and you think Hall>myers?

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06-10-2011, 10:37 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Hall turned 19 a month into the season, Myers was 19 his calder winning year. Thats what I thought.

Btw, hall scored 42 points (52 point 82 gp pace) on a basement Terrible team. Myers scored 48 on a division winner as a d-man, and you think Hall>myers?
I don't think the division winner point helps your argument. I'm sure Hall would have had more goals and points had he been on a team with more talent too.

How many points does Myers put up if he's playing on a team that had powerplay made up of Paajarvi, Eberle, Omark, Cogliano and Gagner? With Gilbert, Smid or Vandermeer as his defense partner?

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06-10-2011, 10:38 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
Like Myers more if you want but you don't need to bash Hall to make a point.

Hall was the Oilers best forward this season and the main focus of the opposition on many nights since Hemsky was injured. He created his own chances and was dominant on many nights. After going goalless in the first 7 games of his career, he had 22 goals/41 points in the final 58 games of the season. That's a 31 goal/58 point pace. To have that kind run at 18/19 years old is impressive.
No reason to bash either player really. Hall is going to be a great offensive scorer with 40+ goal potential. Myers has the potential to be an elite defenseman in all three zones of the ice. Defenseman take longer to develop and as soon as Myers' experience catches up to his mobility and strength I believe he will be second to only Doughty.

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06-10-2011, 10:41 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Hall turned 19 a month into the season, Myers was 19 his calder winning year. Thats what I thought.

Btw, hall scored 42 points (52 point 82 gp pace) on a basement Terrible team. Myers scored 48 on a division winner as a d-man, and you think Hall>myers?
I think that Hall is better than Myers, but not my much.

P.S. Hall will produce no matter who he is playing with, he's one of those players.

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06-10-2011, 10:42 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
I don't think the division winner point helps your argument. I'm sure Hall would have had more goals and points had he been on a team with more talent too.

How many points does Myers put up if he's playing on a team that had powerplay made up of Paajarvi, Eberle, Omark, Cogliano and Gagner? With Gilbert, Smid or Vandermeer as his defense partner?
Why are we comparing points between a scoring winger and a defenseman? It's a stupid comparison. Myers put up those points while shutting down the opposition as a first priority.

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Old
06-10-2011, 10:43 AM
  #83
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Lol ok Wingers that I would say are equal to Hall or better
Anahiem : Corey Perry, Bobby Ryan
Boston : Lucic
Buffalo : Vanek, Stafford
Calgary : Iginla
Carolina : Skinner but hes pretty much equal to Hall
Chicago : Kane, Hossa
Colorodo : none
Columbus : Nash
Dallas : Eriksson, Benn
Detroit : Maybe Franzen but Ill give it to Hall on this unless you wanna count Zett
Florida : none
LA : Dustin Brown
Minnesota : Latandresse if he could stay healthy
Montreal : Cammaleri, Gionta
Nashville : None
New Jersey : Kovy, Parise
NY Islanders : Grabner, Moulson
Rangers : Dubinsky, Callahan, Gaborik
Sens : none
Philly : Giroux, JVR
Phoenix : none
Pitt : none
SJ : Clowe
St. Louis : Stewart, Perron
Tampa : St. Louis
Toronto : Kessel, Kulemin
Vancouver : SEdin, Burrows
Washington : Semin, Ovechkin

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Old
06-10-2011, 10:46 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Havok89 View Post
Why are we comparing points between a scoring winger and a defenseman? It's a stupid comparison. Myers put up those points while shutting down the opposition as a first priority.
I'm not the one making the stats argument so I don't really have an answer for you.

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Originally Posted by tmack224 View Post
Lol ok Wingers that I would say are equal to Hall or better
Anahiem : Corey Perry, Bobby Ryan
Boston : Lucic
Buffalo : Vanek, Stafford
Calgary : Iginla
Carolina : Skinner but hes pretty much equal to Hall
Chicago : Kane, Hossa
Colorodo : none
Columbus : Nash
Dallas : Eriksson, Benn
Detroit : Maybe Franzen but Ill give it to Hall on this unless you wanna count Zett
Florida : none
LA : Dustin Brown
Minnesota : Latandresse if he could stay healthy
Montreal : Cammaleri, Gionta
Nashville : None
New Jersey : Kovy, Parise
NY Islanders : Grabner, Moulson
Rangers : Dubinsky, Callahan, Gaborik
Sens : none
Philly : Giroux, JVR
Phoenix : none
Pitt : none
SJ : Clowe
St. Louis : Stewart, Perron
Tampa : St. Louis
Toronto : Kessel, Kulemin
Vancouver : SEdin, Burrows
Washington : Semin, Ovechkin
What is your definition of a "Hall type player"? You have St.Louis and Lucic on the same list.

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Old
06-10-2011, 10:46 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
I don't think the division winner point helps your argument. I'm sure Hall would have had more goals and points had he been on a team with more talent too.

How many points does Myers put up if he's playing on a team that had powerplay made up of Paajarvi, Eberle, Omark, Cogliano and Gagner? With Gilbert, Smid or Vandermeer as his defense partner?
Ah the supporting cast argument. Kovy didn't need one to score 50 a year, if anything it helps you put up more #s do to more ice time.Regardless, if a dman is producing just as much as a forward , it's pretty sad to think that said forward is worlds better then the said dman.

I'm not saying Hall is bad, he'll be a 70-80 point forward, but to say Hall>>Myers or think that Myers isnt already a #1 dman is real misinformed.

Both are good young players, but it seems the one with the accolades gets no respect.

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06-10-2011, 10:49 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by tmack224 View Post
Lol ok Wingers that I would say are equal to Hall or better
Anahiem : Corey Perry, Bobby Ryan
Boston : Lucic
Buffalo : Vanek, Stafford
Calgary : Iginla
Carolina : Skinner but hes pretty much equal to Hall
Chicago : Kane, Hossa
Colorodo : none
Columbus : Nash
Dallas : Eriksson, Benn
Detroit : Maybe Franzen but Ill give it to Hall on this unless you wanna count Zett
Florida : none
LA : Dustin Brown
Minnesota : Latandresse if he could stay healthy
Montreal : Cammaleri, Gionta
Nashville : None
New Jersey : Kovy, Parise
NY Islanders : Grabner, Moulson
Rangers : Dubinsky, Callahan, Gaborik
Sens : none
Philly : Giroux, JVR
Phoenix : none
Pitt : none
SJ : Clowe
St. Louis : Stewart, Perron
Tampa : St. Louis
Toronto : Kessel, Kulemin
Vancouver : SEdin, Burrows
Washington : Semin, Ovechkin
Hall is already better than the bolded, and will be better than the italicized...and I am pretty sure he will be better than what I have predicted here.

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06-10-2011, 10:50 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Ah the supporting cast argument. Kovy didn't need one to score 50 a year, if anything it helps you put up more #s do to more ice time.Regardless, if a dman is producing just as much as a forward , it's pretty sad to think that said forward is worlds better then the said dman.

I'm not saying Hall is bad, he'll be a 70-80 point forward, but to say Hall>>Myers or think that Myers isnt already a #1 dman is real misinformed.

Both are good young players, but it seems the one with the accolades gets no respect.
Did you know Visnovsky had more points than Backstrom this season? Or that Kovalchuk only had 1 more point than Yandle.

Stats aren't the end all be all...and if they are, why aren't we talking about how Myers had 37 points this season?

...and I don't know why the supporting cast argument gets thrown out the window. Being surrounded by better talent and having a better coach are huge factors.

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Old
06-10-2011, 10:55 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
I'm not the one making the stats argument so I don't really have an answer for you.

What is your definition of a "Hall type player"? You have St.Louis and Lucic on the same list.
I was just making a list of wingers on each team that I would take as equal or better then hall

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06-10-2011, 10:59 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by tmack224 View Post
I was just making a list of wingers on each team that I would take as equal or better then hall
You think it's fair to compare a winger that is fresh out of junior to veterans 23-33 years old? Lots of teams have top pairing Dmen too but I wouldn't compare them to Myers because they're not 21 years old. They should be equal/better by the time they're that age.

Edit: I appreciate that you put the work in the make a list. I just don't see how it's relevant.

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06-10-2011, 10:59 AM
  #90
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RNH is more of a lock for 1 this year then Hall was last year. Show me one ranking that was done lately that does not have him first. Also, it would be Myers +++ for first overall
Oh good god, you cant be serious that on top of Myers you want Buffalo to add???

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06-10-2011, 10:59 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Hall is already better than the bolded, and will be better than the italicized...and I am pretty sure he will be better than what I have predicted here.
Hall will undoubtedly be better than Stafford. That said, he was not better than Drew last season. Sorry. 31 goals in 62 games > 22 goals in 65 games.

EDIT: And that's not a knock on Hall. A 19-year-old shouldn't be better than an in-his-prime 25-year-old with the skill set of Stafford.

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06-10-2011, 11:10 AM
  #92
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I must have missed Hall's all-star worthy season. With all this talk of how great he is there should be no reason for him not win the Calder then. I know I don't follow the west much but I really can't believe I missed Hall's incredible Crosby like season.

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06-10-2011, 11:14 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Hall is already better than the bolded, and will be better than the italicized...and I am pretty sure he will be better than what I have predicted here.
Really already better then Lucic? Benn? Brown? Moulson already has 2 30 goal seasons... I was saying equal to or greater then hall so I agree hes gonna pass a couple of those guys on the list. But his skill set isnt that much greater then them.

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06-10-2011, 11:23 AM
  #94
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Really already better then Lucic? Benn? Brown? Moulson already has 2 30 goal seasons... I was saying equal to or greater then hall so I agree hes gonna pass a couple of those guys on the list. But his skill set isnt that much greater then them.
Hall's skillset is better then 90% of those on that list. Why even comment on a player if you never watched him?

I have watched more of Myers then you have (Watched him all through JR and majority of Sabres games) and his play this year was very subpar compaired to his rookie year, his defensive play was a lot worse.

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06-10-2011, 11:29 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by eberlehall View Post
Hall's skillset is better then 90% of those on that list. Why even comment on a player if you never watched him?

I have watched more of Myers then you have (Watched him all through JR and majority of Sabres games) and his play this year was very subpar compaired to his rookie year, his defensive play was a lot worse.
Lol ok everyone just relax Im talking about what hes has done so far not what he is gonna do considering no one knows what he is really gonna end up becoming. Yes I know Hall has a chance at being elite but he hasnt yet nor was his first year anything to be wowed about. people act like your kicking their dog around here if you say anything less then their home teams player is amazing...

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06-10-2011, 11:40 AM
  #96
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Hall is going to be a fine player but Myers has a real shot at becoming a Norris candidate when he finally reaches his peak. Hall just doesn't have that kind of potential. If the 2008 draft was redrafted knowing what we know now, Myers easily goes 3rd and possibly even 2nd overall. Their PPG and +/- are almost the same but Myers happened to win the Calder his rookie year. Hall wasn't even close to being nominated for the Calder.

Myers had a sophomore slump this year which Hall could easily have next. Scoring wingers are more marginal players and are fairly easy to come by. I'd also like to address the "He'd have had a better season on a team with more talent" point. That isn't always the case. He wouldn't be getting 1st line ice time on a team with better talent so his production might not have been any better. To say Hall is or will be a more valuable player than Myers is absurd at best.

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06-10-2011, 11:48 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havok89 View Post
No reason to bash either player really. Hall is going to be a great offensive scorer with 40+ goal potential. Myers has the potential to be an elite defenseman in all three zones of the ice. Defenseman take longer to develop and as soon as Myers' experience catches up to his mobility and strength I believe he will be second to only Doughty.
Personally, and I know I'm in the minority, I think Myers is going to surpass Doughty. Doughty is a great player, but seems to lack leadership qualities, seeing as he was an out of shape drunk during the offseason. Myers seems to have everything you're looking for from somebody that age. He's mature beyond his years, while Doughty, it appears, is not.

Edit: to save this from derailing the conversation, Myers is more valuable than Hall, and quite a bit more valuable than the 1st pick, IMO.


Last edited by stokes84: 06-10-2011 at 12:02 PM.
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Old
06-10-2011, 11:58 AM
  #98
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Well that is a ridiculous statement.

Professional scouts have predicted otherwise, and really, you have no idea how these players are going to project.
How is it ridiculous? I think you'd be hard pressed to find an NHL GM with an intact brain stem that would trade a proven 21 year old franchise defenseman on an entry-level contract for the first overall pick in almost any draft, let alone one that most professionals are calling weak.

The Sabres went as Myers went. When the season started, he had a tough time [first 4-6 weeks]. The Sabres record was the worst in the NHL. Then he picked it up and settled in, and the Sabres made the playoffs. At one point in the season, I believe late November, there was statistically a 2% chance that the Sabres would make it into the playoffs. They did, and they took a good team in Philly to 7 games despite some key injuries. Myers is THE cog.

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06-10-2011, 12:06 PM
  #99
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It seems that Myers has a similar value to the likes of Pronger? (i.e. two playoff teams' firsts + two decent players)

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06-10-2011, 12:09 PM
  #100
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It seems that Myers has a similar value to the likes of Pronger? (i.e. two playoff teams' firsts + two decent players)
Current Pronger? Or should I say current as in the last time he was traded? Pronger's value isn't as high as it was, obviously, due to his advancing age. Myers trade value is higher than Pronger's at this point.

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