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Dream of a true 4-line team could be realized this season

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Old
06-09-2011, 04:57 PM
  #26
Telos
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I am confident Stoll and fulfill Zeus' role. If Zeus pleaded with a bottom of the barrel offer, he would be one of the best fourth line centers in the league and I would likely sign him, but he could get much more on the open market and he has served his purpose, it's best to move on and see if we can't promote some of these youngsters. Schenn or Loktionov will be battling for 2nd or 3rd, whichever position they win, Stoll is guaranteed one of them.

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06-09-2011, 05:05 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Well, I suppose it's all based on what people would deem to be important, but:

When the Kings were shorthanded, Handzus took 255 draws in the defensive zone, while Stoll took 198.

When the Kings were on the power play, Handzus took 182 draws in the offensive zone, while Stoll took 180.

Stoll took more draws 5-on-5, but if you're looking at draws on special teams to be more critical to the outcome of the game (based on the increased probability of scoring or giving up a goal in those scenarios), then Handzus took more of the important faceoffs than Stoll did.
how about late in games?

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06-09-2011, 05:25 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Well, I suppose it's all based on what people would deem to be important, but:

When the Kings were shorthanded, Handzus took 255 draws in the defensive zone, while Stoll took 198.

When the Kings were on the power play, Handzus took 182 draws in the offensive zone, while Stoll took 180.

Stoll took more draws 5-on-5, but if you're looking at draws on special teams to be more critical to the outcome of the game (based on the increased probability of scoring or giving up a goal in those scenarios), then Handzus took more of the important faceoffs than Stoll did.
How many of those draws was Stoll kicked out of and Handzus took? Also, which side were the draws taken from? Murray used them depending on the side the faceoff was taken.

This also shows that Murray used Handzus too much and wasted one of the best faceoff players in the NHL.

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06-09-2011, 05:25 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
how about late in games?
... It would be nice to know the numbers in "close and late" situations, but as far as I know, no one keeps track of that. I would imagine that those situations would mirror the totals I posted.

From my own perspective in viewing, I never saw Murray make any conscious effort to send Stoll out there any more than Handzus in crunch time. Early in the season when the Stoll line was so hot, Murray would send out that line if he needed a goal. But if he needed to send out guys to hold a lead late, it was always the Handzus line from my observation.

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06-09-2011, 05:37 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
How many of those draws was Stoll kicked out of and Handzus took?
... I can't remember that happening too much. If Stoll got kicked out, usually Smyth took the draw - and in fact Smyth led all Kings' wingers in faceoffs (132).

How often do you figure a guy gets kicked out of the circle, anyway? This is a legit question; I'm not trying to be rhetorical here. About once every ten times he takes the draw? Stoll took 1310 total faceoffs - and Smyth took 132, about one-tenth of Stoll's number. So it would match up pretty well.

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Also, which side were the draws taken from? Murray used them depending on the side the faceoff was taken.
... A very good question that unfortunately I can't answer.

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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
This also shows that Murray used Handzus too much and wasted one of the best faceoff players in the NHL.
... It's a tough call. For the last couple years before this season, Handzus was the best defensive forward the Kings had, and actually it wasn't close. I don't blame Murray too much for sending him out there.

As this season went along, however - Handzus was slowing down. It was noticeable, and sad to see. I suppose Murray figured he'd bide his time until Michal came around. Unfortunately, he never really did.

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06-09-2011, 05:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
I know a lot of you don't care for the shootout, but the fact is, it's here and it isn't going away any time soon. Why would we want to get rid of one of the best face off men in the league, who also is the best shootout scorer in the league? Funny how fans in Vancouver love Manny Malhotra like he's a god around the city and all he does is win faceoffs, and Kings fans want to throw their own players under the bus and run them out of town. Blows me away how some of you don't support your own players top to bottom.
I never mentioned trading Stoll in my post.
Steckel also is a top end faceoff specialist.
Wolski is also money in the shoot outs.

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06-09-2011, 06:16 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by nK View Post
I never mentioned trading Stoll in my post.
Steckel also is a top end faceoff specialist.
Wolski is also money in the shoot outs.
Wolski may be had for cheap too, if the Rangers do buy him out.

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06-10-2011, 10:49 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... It would be nice to know the numbers in "close and late" situations, but as far as I know, no one keeps track of that. I would imagine that those situations would mirror the totals I posted.

From my own perspective in viewing, I never saw Murray make any conscious effort to send Stoll out there any more than Handzus in crunch time. Early in the season when the Stoll line was so hot, Murray would send out that line if he needed a goal. But if he needed to send out guys to hold a lead late, it was always the Handzus line from my observation.
My sense was that he did send Stoll out in crunch time more than Zues but, like you say, I don't have any numbers to support it which is why I was curious.

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06-10-2011, 02:14 PM
  #34
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There are other factors to. Such as which side of the ice the draw was happening on, as Handzus is a lefty and Stoll a righty.

Also consider the fact that Handzus is a strong defensive forward and Stoll is a below average defensive player. And even the best faceoff guys in the league still lose 40% of their draws. When your up a goal and the draw in your defensive zone he is obviously going to want Handzus out there matching up with presumably the other teams top offensive center.

And just to add, as many know I am not a big Stoll fan but I don't believe Kurri when he says faceoffs aren't important. I am just arguing that Stoll is to much of a tweener to justify his salary. He is clearly not offensively talented enough to be a 2nd line player and isn't a strong enough two-way player to be on a defensive line. He has some value with his faceoffs and shootouts, but what line do you put him on?

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Old
06-10-2011, 02:31 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markisonfire View Post
You can't score goals if you don't have the puck. The top ten teams in terms of face off percentage:
  1. Vancouver
  2. San Jose
  3. Detroit
  4. Florida
  5. Boston
  6. Washington
  7. Phoenix
  8. Colombus
  9. New Jersey
  10. Los Angeles

Seven of the top ten teams made the playoffs this year.
Jeeezzzz..... so Stoll and Handzus are one of the best faceoff guys in the league.
So how comes we are not top 3 in scoring ????????

Puck posession means absolutely nothing when you can't play hockey.
BTW there are many kinds of puck posessions........
of course we use the wrong one.
Having an attacker in puckposession but pinned to the board by 2 defender IS NOT PUCK POSESSSION IS THIS MEANING.

What i want is real puck posession... the puck has to be used like a flippertable ball.
the passing skills has to be used to move opponents out of position and to find the open attacker who just tipps it in.....

This is puck posession.

Do we have the system for this ?????
No !!!!

So why do we need puck posession if we use it wrong.


I prefer any player who is able to force a lightning fast breakout with mixed with smart passing and ice vision over any faceoff winning guy who is not able to see his linemate starting abreakout.
Not to mention the shooting skills........
Hell... Stoll wouldn't even hit the water when falling out of a boat

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Old
06-10-2011, 03:46 PM
  #36
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It doesn't take a genius to understand that having the puck is better than not having the puck. What they then decide to do with the puck is a totally different argument. Faceoffs are very important.

Having Loktionov, Schenn and Lewis as centers will HURT in that department. None of them had over 40% in draws this season. Obviously the sample size for Schenn and Loktionov isn't that big but it's definitely concerning.

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06-10-2011, 04:30 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BigBrown View Post
It doesn't take a genius to understand that having the puck is better than not having the puck. What they then decide to do with the puck is a totally different argument. Faceoffs are very important.

Having Loktionov, Schenn and Lewis as centers will HURT in that department. None of them had over 40% in draws this season. Obviously the sample size for Schenn and Loktionov isn't that big but it's definitely concerning.
It is a very small sample size for Loktionov and Schenn. The big boys do everything better then guys in the minors/juniors, including taking faceoffs. It takes time to adjust, and it takes time to build up a rhythm. Playing center in only a few games will not allow a player to do either. I expect all three to improve, but don't expect the improvement to be gigantic. Even Kopitar is still under 50% and he's got the experience and size the other three don't.

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Old
06-17-2011, 02:24 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Also consider the fact that Handzus is a strong defensive forward and Stoll is a below average defensive player.
... Come ON, man - I know you love to bash Stoll on a repeated basis, but where do you get this from? Pure +/-? What about the other factors?

Look at the Corsi numbers Stoll puts up (all Corsi rating does is tabulate shots, missed shots, and blocked shots while a player's on the ice).

- In Corsi rating relative to the quality of his teammates on the ice, Stoll has the best mark among all the Kings' forwards.

- In Corsi rating relative to the quality of the competition he faced on the ice, Stoll was behind Kopitar and Handzus among Kings' centers (rightfully so) but ahead of Smyth, Williams, and the other centers. He was the defensive forward on that Smyth-Stoll-Williams line.

- Stoll was third among Kings' forwards in blocked shots, behind Kopitar and Handzus. He was third in takeaways.

- Stoll started his shifts in the offensive zone 48.1% of the time when it was 5-on-5. His shifts ended in the offensive zone 46.3% of the time. The difference was -1.8%, which was only behind Handzus, Simmonds, and Kopitar among Kings' forwards. Handzus was the only regular Kings' forward with a positive number in this category.

- Stoll, of course, won the highest percentage of his draws, which has intrinsic defensive value.

Now - you might be able to say that any one of these points doesn't conclusively show that Stoll was a good defensive forward. But are ALL of them meaningless? Sure, Handzus (even though he was slowing down) still was probably the best defensive forward on the team, and Kopitar had a terrific defensive season in his own right. But Stoll was right behind those two in certain categories, and better than them in others.

The other defensive stalwarts were Simmonds (no shocker) and Brown (who's overall pretty solid defensively despite the occasional blunder).

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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
And just to add, as many know I am not a big Stoll fan
... You're kidding.

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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
He is clearly not offensively talented enough to be a 2nd line player and isn't a strong enough two-way player to be on a defensive line.
... I see a guy who has pretty solid defensive metrics and also managed to score 20 goals. That's a valuable and solid second line center, whether you like it or not.

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He has some value with his faceoffs and shootouts, but what line do you put him on?
... The second line, unless and until Schenn can show that he's better overall.

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Old
06-17-2011, 08:43 AM
  #39
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Hey JT, excellent work on this thread...appreciate all the info, had to take some effort to retieve and used well to support your thoughts .

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Old
06-17-2011, 02:29 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
Jeeezzzz..... so Stoll and Handzus are one of the best faceoff guys in the league.
So how comes we are not top 3 in scoring ????????

Puck posession means absolutely nothing when you can't play hockey.
BTW there are many kinds of puck posessions........
of course we use the wrong one.
Having an attacker in puckposession but pinned to the board by 2 defender IS NOT PUCK POSESSSION IS THIS MEANING.

What i want is real puck posession... the puck has to be used like a flippertable ball.
the passing skills has to be used to move opponents out of position and to find the open attacker who just tipps it in.....

This is puck posession.

Do we have the system for this ?????
No !!!!

So why do we need puck posession if we use it wrong.


I prefer any player who is able to force a lightning fast breakout with mixed with smart passing and ice vision over any faceoff winning guy who is not able to see his linemate starting abreakout.
Not to mention the shooting skills........
Hell... Stoll wouldn't even hit the water when falling out of a boat
...what? It doesn't matter what you do with the puck if you can't get it in the first place.

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Old
06-17-2011, 02:42 PM
  #41
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And Westgarth is going to magically disappear with the Ducks as a main rival? Only hf... always forgetting the enforcer. I also doubt Richards will be coming to LA anytime soon.

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