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Old
06-12-2011, 11:59 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Grow-up kiddo.

Making false-assumptions about me won't make your premise right.

My actual target was Ehrhoff, between 5,5 and 6 mil. But that's my own ideal situation where we would have Jagr at 2 mil. It fits the cap, with everyone signed, and no amount of No no no from you will change that this possibility is feasible cap-wise.
It isn't impossible to sign Wiz with Spacek on the roster but assuming we do sign Markov it's simply bad asset management to sign Wiz and have all these D spacek being like a #7-8 making 3.8. (At best #6)

No GM would do that I'm afraid and fact of the matter still remains we definitely need an upgrade in the top 6. If not only to add scoring but to add depth that we clearly lacked by having bottom sixers in the top six all year. If Spacek is dealt I could see us signing Wiz but if not I see that money going to a top 6 forward and not Wiz. I want Wiz to stay too but it just doesn't make any sense to have Spacek making that kind of money playing as a #6-7. It is just one season but it would be a pretty horrific way to play the season having him eat up 3.8 mil that could have gone to signing a guy like Laich long term or even taking a chance on Jagr.

Heck at this point I'd even be willing to see what Upshall could do just to add a little more depth. We need a winger who can help our top 6/9 and if we sign Markov/Wiz to like 10.5-11 million combined something would have to give regarding Spacek. We'd be really causing ourselves to have poor depth up front if we did that. So while I'm not saying it's impossible to do it I'm just saying Gauthier won't do it.

PS: Like your idea but honestly don't see Jagr taking less than 3. I know he said he'd sign for cheaper than 3.5 but it remains to be seen. I'd like Wiz to stay personally though and could live without Bieksa/Ehrhoff.

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06-12-2011, 12:02 PM
  #27
Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
It isn't impossible to sign Wiz with Spacek on the roster but assuming we do sign Markov it's simply bad asset management to sign Wiz and have all these D spacek being like a #7-8 making 3.8. (At best #6)

No GM would do that I'm afraid and fact of the matter still remains we definitely need an upgrade in the top 6. If not only to add scoring but to add depth that we clearly lacked by having bottom sixers in the top six all year. If Spacek is dealt I could see us signing Wiz but if not I see that money going to a top 6 forward and not Wiz. I want Wiz to stay too but it just doesn't make any sense to have Spacek making that kind of money playing as a #6-7. It is just one season but it would be a pretty horrific way to play the season having him eat up 3.8 mil that could have gone to signing a guy like Laich long term or even taking a chance on Jagr.

Heck at this point I'd even be willing to see what Upshall could do just to add a little more depth. We need a winger who can help our top 6/9 and if we sign Markov/Wiz to like 10.5-11 million combined something would have to give regarding Spacek. We'd be really causing ourselves to have poor depth up front if we did that. So while I'm not saying it's impossible to do it I'm just saying Gauthier won't do it.
I know, and that's why my target would either be Hamr, or someone on the market because Wiz is a bad fit if Markov is there.

BTW, that would make Spacek #4. Emelin played a bigger rink with more time to react. The quicker pace, and the substracted fraction of a second to react will make him a #7 for the time it takes for him to adapt. Your vision of Spacek as #6-7 is only based on Emelin and Weber being higher on the D scale, which IMO is false.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 06-12-2011 at 12:08 PM.
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Old
06-12-2011, 12:10 PM
  #28
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If you have Markov, Wiz and Subban to quaterback the offence, and if the six actual forwards produce slighltly better next season, we won't have too many offensive problems.
Exactly..I agree 100%...And early in the season Georges showed he can be effective as well

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06-12-2011, 12:11 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Habblues View Post
I just can`t imagine even thinking about letting the WIZ walk after what he did for this team. He was the main reason they made the playoffs, THE MAIN REASON imo !
Price, Subban, Plekanec?

Wiz was a great asset on the PP, no doubt about it. So was MAB. Both were also defensive liabilities. Schneider was also good on the PP, until he got hurt.

Hopefully Markov and Subban will be healthy all year, and play big minutes on the PP! I have full confidence in those two. If we run into some more bad luck, it won't cost much to acquire another offensive specialist

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06-12-2011, 12:12 PM
  #30
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I think its some fans with the poor memory. When Markov is healthy hes one of the best in the game on the back end and makes our team that much better in both ends of the ice. Now, yes its a risk with his injuries but all you have to do is look at wiz who has had his fair share of knee injuries to see people can overcome that stuff. I'd like them both back but we probably will only chose 1 and that choice has to be Markov.

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06-12-2011, 12:15 PM
  #31
HCH
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Not really. Just substract hamrlik'"s salary and give a good chunk to Wiz.
Gotta think longer term than that. We have guys like Subban and Price to re-sign after next season. Part of the problem has been too much short term thinking and not enough strategic planning

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06-12-2011, 12:20 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
I think its some fans with the poor memory. When Markov is healthy hes one of the best in the game on the back end and makes our team that much better in both ends of the ice. Now, yes its a risk with his injuries but all you have to do is look at wiz who has had his fair share of knee injuries to see people can overcome that stuff. I'd like them both back but we probably will only chose 1 and that choice has to be Markov.
That goes without saying re; Markov....And same goes for Carry Price. I didn`t think I had to mention that he was the MAIN reason we made it into the playoffs. The Wiz gives us a D man with B***s who can BLISTER the puck and get us some points.....I`m still concerned about the health of Markov.....It`s been two season since he`s played a full schedule.
Subban, Markov, the Wiz, Georges, Gill, Hamrlik is a great D corpse foundation. Build around those guys.

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06-12-2011, 12:24 PM
  #33
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D corpse
George Romero for defensemen coach!

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06-12-2011, 12:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Habblues View Post
As far as I`m concerned the Habs brass have poor memories by which they fail (every year) to recognize the players that were KEY to getting the Habs into the playoffs and worked like dogs during the playoffs. Last summer they let certain players walk after a terrific season and playoff run. And here we go again. I just can`t imagine even thinking about letting the WIZ walk after what he did for this team. He was the main reason they made the playoffs, THE MAIN REASON imo ! He was a warrior in the playoffs even though he was playing with many injuries.....As far as I`m concerned they can`t afford to lose a guy like that.
So you think we should keep Wisniewski and let markov walk?

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Old
06-12-2011, 12:49 PM
  #35
BaseballCoach
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Enough cap space say Hey

Some people are really bad at logic.
Exactly.

Here is an example with Markov, Wiz and Jagr.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Jaromir Jagr ($2.500m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.500m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.350m) / Lars Eller ($1.270m) / Andrei Kostitsyn ($3.250m)
Tom Pyatt ($0.550m) / David Desharnais ($0.605m) / Ryan White ($0.500m)
Mathieu Darche ($0.700m) / / Travis Moen ($1.500m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / P.K. Subban ($0.875m)
Hal Gill ($2.250m) / Josh Gorges ($2.500m)
Alexei Yemelin ($0.984m) / James Wisniewski ($4.750m)
Jaroslav Spacek ($3.833m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($2.750m) / Alex Auld ($1.000m)

BUYOUTS: Georges Laraque ($0.500m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $63,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,275,509; BONUSES: $400,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,124,491

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Old
06-12-2011, 12:53 PM
  #36
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You really think that we are going to get a top 6 forward for 2.5 ? Seriously ? Jagr isn't coming back to the NHL.

Why is Moen your extra forward as well as Darche. And where is Weber ? Listen our top 6 is going to cost us in between 3-4.5 million dollars


Last edited by overlords: 06-12-2011 at 01:09 PM.
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Old
06-12-2011, 12:56 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
Gotta think longer term than that. We have guys like Subban and Price to re-sign after next season. Part of the problem has been too much short term thinking and not enough strategic planning
You do realize that Spacek, Gill, and Moen will be off the books after next season, more than enough to sign Subban and Price. Plus the cap will go up again, especially with Winnipeg replacing Atlanta, and the US dollar in free fall.

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06-12-2011, 01:02 PM
  #38
Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
Gotta think longer term than that. We have guys like Subban and Price to re-sign after next season. Part of the problem has been too much short term thinking and not enough strategic planning
The cap will likely be going up 5-6 mil in the span of two seasons, counting Spacek's contract also going next season. Price and Subban already represent 3,625 mil on the cap, and will probably get an added 5-6 mil together.

Signing Wiz at a bit lower cap hit than Hamrlik isn't a problem, it only adds to the space of the present makeup they had this season vs the cap vs the next season, Wiz takes Hammer's spot on the cap, we have enough ingoing and outgoing players (veterans (Spacek, Gill, Moen vs youth in terms of NHL experience such as Subban-Emelin-Weber-Diaz-DD-White-Enqvist-Pal-Kristo) to maintain the cap afloat while keeping all the key players. Hamr was a key player in last year's cap makeup and needs to be signed or replaced. Habs never let 4-5 mil of cap space hang. And certainly not 7-9 mil if we consider what the present trend of players would cost :

Gomez(7,35)-Cam(6)-Plex(5)-Gio(5)-AK(3,25)-Pac(2*)-
Moen(1,5)-Eller(1,27) (Sign Halpern or someone else in the meantime, similar cap)-Pouliot(1,3*)-White(0,950*)-DD(0,7*)-Darche(0,7)
Markov(5,75)-Spacek(3,833)-Gorges(2,5*)-Gill(2,25)-
Emelin(0,975)-Weber(0,975*)-Subban(0,875)
Price(2,75)-Auld(1*)

=56 428 000/63 500 000
With 7 mil of cap space with 21 players signed

And that's with the maximum I think some players will get. Markov wants a multi-year contract, if he does, he'll quite probably conceed some salary, I think he'll get his 3+ years, but closer to 5 mil. Gorges has been injured just like Markov, is one year removed from FA and will probably sign for only one season at closer to 2 mil and won't bar much of a salary upgrade comes next year. Pac might get 2 mil if he signs for 3 seasons, which I think he might be interested in taking a longer term contract even if his value isn't as up as he would like to be considering his career could've been over, but if he signs for less, than it will be closer to 1,5-1,7. Auld could be replaced by someone cheaper too. All that gives around 1+mil to the 7 mi already available. And that's without any tinkering with trades, like signing a top 6 winger AND getting rid of Pouliot, replacing him, instead of only adding the UFA, which then takes less margin on the cap, and take the lesser spot with a guy like Pyatt or someone else who costs close to the minimum.

Comes next year, even if we used the remaining cap space this year on long term contracts (3+years), we'll still have Gill going (probably replaced by a more experienced Emelin), Spacek going, Moen going. And the cap probably going up again if all goes well with Winnipeg and another team is slated to move in a better financial environment. So next year, with most of our core signed, Price and Subban might be the only important players we'll need to sign, the only added cap space, outside of 3th-4th liners and RFAs who don't cost much and can be replaced easily. All this will account for almost 6-7 mil of cap space, quite sufficient to re-sign them both and the rest of what is needed.

It is ironic that Spacek's cap space will be used to sign Subban at a higher cap hit, as what Subban will do, Spacek was intended to do when he was signed.

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06-12-2011, 01:08 PM
  #39
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Not only is good offensively, Wizniewsky can skate and drop the gloves.

Wisniewski > M.A. Bergeron

I agree with some other posters.. Habs will have $5.5M more to spent next season now that Hamrlik's contract is expired. If you offer Wiz $4.5M and he accepts ($1M raise), give Markov a $5.5M one year deal to show his knee is fine, give Gorges $2.2M ($0.9M raise), you will notice that if they started the season with these top 7 defense men:

Markov 5.5
Subban 0.875
Wisniewski 4.5
Gill 2.25
Spacek 3.83
Gorges 2.2
Yemelin 0.984
=$20.14M

Vs. last season's top 7 before all the injuries...

Markov 5.75
Subban 0.875
Hamrlik 5.5
Gill 2.25
Spacek 3.83
Gorges 1.3
webber 0.637
=$20.142M

you will notice that the salaries are comparable....

So It will be hard to convince me that the Habs can't afford to pay Wisniewski now that Hamrlik's contract is expired. And if the Habs really wanted to sign the Wiz, they can still try and move Spacek to get some more funds..

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Old
06-12-2011, 01:16 PM
  #40
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I agree with the OP completely.

It is completely possible to be within the salary cap with Wiz and Markov.

Stop trying to win the classiest organization in the league award and start trying to win a Stanley Cup.

Spacek making almost 4 M ?
Sending him to the minors isn't a complicated task.

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06-12-2011, 01:17 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
I agree with the OP completely.

It is completely possible to be within the salary cap with Wiz and Markov.

Stop trying to win the classiest organization in the league award and start trying to win a Stanley Cup.

Spacek making almost 4 M ?
Sending him to the minors isn't a complicated task.
I'm not too familiar with how the cap works with contracts over 35, but wouldn't Spacek still count against the cap even if sent down? so yes, they could send Spacek down, but he'd still count against the cap and considering that he is still a serviceable d-man, it would be a move that probably wouldn't benefit the habs.

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Old
06-12-2011, 01:18 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Habblues View Post
As far as I`m concerned the Habs brass have poor memories by which they fail (every year) to recognize the players that were KEY to getting the Habs into the playoffs and worked like dogs during the playoffs. Last summer they let certain players walk after a terrific season and playoff run. And here we go again. I just can`t imagine even thinking about letting the WIZ walk after what he did for this team. He was the main reason they made the playoffs, THE MAIN REASON imo ! He was a warrior in the playoffs even though he was playing with many injuries.....As far as I`m concerned they can`t afford to lose a guy like that.
Posters who forget the NHL has a salary cap have poor memories!

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Old
06-12-2011, 01:18 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Exactly.

Here is an example with Markov, Wiz and Jagr.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Jaromir Jagr ($2.500m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.500m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.350m) / Lars Eller ($1.270m) / Andrei Kostitsyn ($3.250m)
Tom Pyatt ($0.550m) / David Desharnais ($0.605m) / Ryan White ($0.500m)
Mathieu Darche ($0.700m) / / Travis Moen ($1.500m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / P.K. Subban ($0.875m)
Hal Gill ($2.250m) / Josh Gorges ($2.500m)
Alexei Yemelin ($0.984m) / James Wisniewski ($4.750m)
Jaroslav Spacek ($3.833m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($2.750m) / Alex Auld ($1.000m)

BUYOUTS: Georges Laraque ($0.500m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $63,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,275,509; BONUSES: $400,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,124,491
Pouliot is gone IMO. Just trade his rights to a team desperate for offence, (Edmonton, Ottawa, Columbus, etc) for a draft pick and give the extra money to Jagr...

and you can save a little if you sign a cheaper goalie to back up Price. Auld was a good choice last season because it wasn't guaranteed that Price could play so many games and perform the way he did. But now that they know how many games he can play, go get a cheaper goalie...

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Old
06-12-2011, 01:21 PM
  #44
Schooner Guy
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Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
Spacek making almost 4 M ?
Sending him to the minors isn't a complicated task.
Learning the basics of the CBA isn't a complicated task.

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Old
06-12-2011, 01:22 PM
  #45
Belso
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Posters who forget the NHL has a salary cap have poor memories!
Take a look at my post #40.. Affording Wisniewski is nowhere near impossible.. The Hab's aren't going to have to add $5M to the D to afford him.. Hamrlik's contract really did open up a lot of room to sign Wisniewski IF that is their intention..

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06-12-2011, 01:24 PM
  #46
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Meanwhile some guys are laughing at us..


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06-12-2011, 01:24 PM
  #47
Belso
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Learning the basics of the CBA isn't a complicated task.
What is the rule again? Players above 35 will always have their salaries count against the cap????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Poutine View Post
Meanwhile some guys are laughing at us..

LOL Funny...

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06-12-2011, 01:26 PM
  #48
Andy
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What is the rule again? Players above 35 will always have their salaries count against the cap????
Yup I just read up on it.



Players who sign multi-year contracts when they are age 35 or older (calculated on June 30 of the season the contract begins) count toward the cap under all circumstances, regardless of where (or if) the player is playing. The only cap relief is $100,000 from the player's cap hit if he is assigned to the minors after the first year of the contract.

CBA reference: Section 50.5 (d-i-B-5) (P. 203)

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06-12-2011, 01:38 PM
  #49
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cap going up is an illusion. it's just inflation. it goes up and up, but everyone's new contracts just go up by at least the same percentage. it doesn't actually give you room to sign new people. other than your average scrubs.

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06-12-2011, 01:46 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
NO it's not. That's only you being very very poor at math.

With 21 players signed (all rfas + Markov), we would still have between 7-9 million to spend. If you get a forward at 3 mil, you still have between 4 and 6 mil (depending on RFA contracts) to spend on another D. But it is a minimal 4 mil (under the possibility of signing another forward at 3 mil or less) and have much more if we sign that forward for less (like Jagr at 2 mil, we would have between 5 and 7 mil to spend on another D).

As I've said many times before, I've done the spreadsheets many many times with many many different possibilities, and it is just ridiculous to say we need to get rid of Spacek to sign another D. If we get rid of Spacek, we could sign BOTH Wiz and Hamr.

BTW, I hope you got the news, the cap will be around 63,5 mil.

I always find it amusing when someone tries to force a psendo-reality based on his misconceptions, false-assumptions and premature conclusions.

Next thing you'll tell me, the typical knee-jerk reaction, is that we need space for next season for Price, Subban and maybe Pac if he signs for only 1 season (which i highly doubt). My spreadsheets include following seasons with a 5% increasing cap (as it is almost always the case), and there's always room for everyone of them.

I might be wrong about some things, but I'm rarely wrong about the cap and the space we have, and the contract money players will get. Don't try to teach a teacher. The real situation here is that the cap space says Hay, and you say nay because you either can't see it properly, or are highly insecure about money.
Not that I disagree with you, because I don't, but I was wondering if I could get a copy of your spreadsheets?

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