The delusion of signing Wiz and Markov in this thread is unreal. I guarantee you 100% it will not happen. And we aren't going to send Spacek or Gomez to the minors...
How can some people call themselves hockey fans with their logic.
I am not a clairvoyant. Signing Makov and Wiz really might not happen. We don't really know that PG is thinking, we don't really know what Markov and Wisniewski are thinking and we don't really know what their agents are thinking.
So I'm ok with posters who feel the odds of signing both are not that great. Fine. I'm also ok with those who would take the $5M or so that would be spent on one of these two D-men and throw it at a forward instead. I personally would not do that, but I know the difference between my opinion and mathemetical certainty.
What drives me NUTS though are those who say that signing both is "impossible". That is simply not true. We have seen enough CapGeek lists to KNOW that is not true, but some stubbornly persist in telling this discredited story..............
I am not a clairvoyant. Signing Makov and Wiz really might not happen. We don't really know that PG is thinking, we don't really know what Markov and Wisniewski are thinking and we don't really know what their agents are thinking.
So I'm ok with posters who feel the odds of signing both are not that great. Fine. I'm also ok with those who would take the $5M or so that would be spent on one of these two D-men and throw it at a forward instead. I personally would not do that, but I know the difference between my opinion and mathemetical certainty.
What drives me NUTS though are those who say that signing both is "impossible". That is simply not true. We have seen enough CapGeek lists to KNOW that is not true, but some stubbornly persist in telling this discredited story..............
The only CapGeek lists I see including Wisniewski AND Markov are ones that put Spacek as a seventh defenseman. We all know the Habs brass will not bench Spacek, that is just a complete waste of our assets. Especially with almost 4mil being spent on him.
It is just plain bad asset management signing Markov and Wisniweski, pretty much having Markov, Subban, Gorges, Gill, Wiz, Spacek as our top 6, and pushing Emelin and Weber as number 7 and 8? It just doesn't add up. We don't need Wisniewski at all and it's painfully obvious. That's just too many top D and not enough top forwards.
The only CapGeek lists I see including Wisniewski AND Markov are ones that put Spacek as a seventh defenseman. We all know the Habs brass will not bench Spacek, that is just a complete waste of our assets. Especially with almost 4mil being spent on him.
It is just plain bad asset management signing Markov and Wisniweski, pretty much having Markov, Subban, Gorges, Gill, Wiz, Spacek as our top 6, and pushing Emelin and Weber as number 7 and 8? It just doesn't add up. We don't need Wisniewski at all and it's painfully obvious. That's just too many top D and not enough top forwards.
In 18-24 months I think Weber will be as good as Wisniewski is now. Minus maybe the "nutjob" streak that Wiz displayed in Anaheim but probably better defensively.
Only in the last season. If Markov didn't come back from injury in 09-10, the Habs probably wouldn't have made the playoffs. Markov was the MVP in the 45 games he played in 09-10, ranking top 3 among dmen for team's GFPG when he's on the ice, and top 10 for overall +/- put on an average of 82 games (ES+PP+PK) among all dmen. His PPG average was 6th among all dmen. The team's GF average went up almost by 0,50, and the team's GAA went down by almost 0,50, compared to when he wasn't there. Gomez was also very productive when Markov was on the ice, scoring 41 points in the 45 games Markov was there versus 18 points in the 33 games he wasn't there. I think most people will agree that Gomez wouldn't have racked up those points without Markov.
The only reason the team didn't flunk without a true #1D in the last season is because PK Subban took the spot, although with some rookie mistakes along the way. Having the TWO of them is what will make the Habs very hard to beat, not just one of them.
Really it was more of a joint Subban-Hamrlik effort. The two of them anchored the top 4 even strength pairings. Subban was more useful on special teams while Hamrlik carried a bigger role on even strength. Both also allowed their partners in Wisniewski and Gill who have crucial skills but also have significant weaknesses to play to their strengths and be effective.
The choice this summer isn't Markov vs. Wisnieski. Its Wisniewski versus major forward signing. Personally, as I'm unimpressed with who is out their as UFA top-6 forwards I'd rather keep the group already there upgrade the defense. Then sign a strong top-9 forward for less to play with Eller.
The scoring woes are due the top forwards all having sub-par seasons, mainly due to vagaries of poor shooting percentage. They're good enough to take this team to the playoffs and if an upgrade is necessary it can be done at the deadline when either a Spacek trade or long-term injury has opened some space. Overpaying long-term for Laich or Jokinen long-term doesn't advance the team much beyond what it is now.
Also having 3 top level offensive defensemen in Markov, Subban and Wisnieski is a good way to promote team offense. All three are good bets to make the top-30 in defenseman scoring next season. What's the difference between getting 40-45 points from a defenseman and getting it from a winger?
Average scoring rates (ppg) of players in Canadiens uniform past 4 (including playoff) years versus scoring rate past regular season:
Player-----Last season---Habs Average
Plekanec:--0.73----------0.72
Cammaleri:-0.70----------0.80
Gionta:----0.56----------0.66
Gomez:----0.46----------0.62
Kostitysn:--0.56----------0.58
Its a rare year when no one over-preforms and only 2 (Plekanec and Kostitsyn) are about average. Consult their shooting percentages versus shots generated as I did here http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...als-offense-is and you get a similar result.
Last year's team could score because they had no depth beyond their top players. This year's team had offensive depth, but its top players underproduced. One is a bad sign the other points to a better next year.
The only CapGeek lists I see including Wisniewski AND Markov are ones that put Spacek as a seventh defenseman. We all know the Habs brass will not bench Spacek, that is just a complete waste of our assets. Especially with almost 4mil being spent on him.
It is just plain bad asset management signing Markov and Wisniweski, pretty much having Markov, Subban, Gorges, Gill, Wiz, Spacek as our top 6, and pushing Emelin and Weber as number 7 and 8? It just doesn't add up. We don't need Wisniewski at all and it's painfully obvious. That's just too many top D and not enough top forwards.
Weber hasn't shown top-6 skills yet at the NHL level, and Yemelin will get his chance either this year through injuries or at worst next year when Spacek and maybe Gill too are gone.
Meanwhile, there is just no such thing as too many good defencemen.
The Habs of the 70s obviously had a great first line, and terrific checkers and energy forwards, but the second line was usually incomplete. Murray Wilson, Rejean Houle, even Glen Sather had a shot at the 6th forward position at various times.
But nobody thought to sacrifice one of Lapointe, Savard or Robinson to solve this obvious imbalance!
Now, you might tell me that Markov, Subban and Wisniewski are not as good as the Big 3 of the 70s but that just makes my point stronger that they would not be "too much" to have on one team.
As far as I`m concerned the Habs brass have poor memories by which they fail (every year) to recognize the players that were KEY to getting the Habs into the playoffs and worked like dogs during the playoffs. Last summer they let certain players walk after a terrific season and playoff run. And here we go again. I just can`t imagine even thinking about letting the WIZ walk after what he did for this team. He was the main reason they made the playoffs, THE MAIN REASON imo ! He was a warrior in the playoffs even though he was playing with many injuries.....As far as I`m concerned they can`t afford to lose a guy like that.
He'll be replaced by Markov and Gorges. I know they can't live up to your image of Wisniewski but give those two a chance.
Weber hasn't shown top-6 skills yet at the NHL level, and Yemelin will get his chance either this year through injuries or at worst next year when Spacek and maybe Gill too are gone.
Meanwhile, there is just no such thing as too many good defencemen.
The Habs of the 70s obviously had a great first line, and terrific checkers and energy forwards, but the second line was usually incomplete. Murray Wilson, Rejean Houle, even Glen Sather had a shot at the 6th forward position at various times.
But nobody thought to sacrifice one of Lapointe, Savard or Robinson to solve this obvious imbalance!
Now, you might tell me that Markov, Subban and Wisniewski are not as good as the Big 3 of the 70s but that just makes my point stronger that they would not be "too much" to have on one team.
That's just it. We don't have a good enough first line to cover for our lack of depth. Instead, we absolutely NEED to be playing second line forwards like AK on our third line to make up for the offense lost by playing second line forwards on our first line.
At the same time, we had good enough defense and goaltending to finish in the top third in the league in goals against. By replacing Hamrlik, Wiz and Sopel with Markov, Gorges and Emelin, we have already upgraded the defensive ability of our team more than enough IMO, provided that they remain healthy.
Having too much of something does become a problem when you're stuck with a limited amount of cap space. As much of a luxury it would be to have a "big 3" on our team, it's not the most cost-efficient way to improve the team IMO. Wizniewski's main asset is his ability to run a PP, which is something that would be redundant considering what we already have anyway.
Really it was more of a joint Subban-Hamrlik effort. The two of them anchored the top 4 even strength pairings. Subban was more useful on special teams while Hamrlik carried a bigger role on even strength. Both also allowed their partners in Wisniewski and Gill who have crucial skills but also have significant weaknesses to play to their strengths and be effective.
Oh, I totally agree with that. It was more to show that there was someone to replace that anchor, whereas in the past, we were left with Hamrlik as the only top 4 pairing anchor when Markov went down.
This is also why I would either re-sign Hamrlik, or find someone one else to anchor a line, as Subban is young, and to win, you need two solid anchors, one for each pairing, and having three is the key to being contenders in the model the Habs seem to have, where our Dmen are the best players on the team (Markov and Subban).
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The choice this summer isn't Markov vs. Wisnieski. Its Wisniewski versus major forward signing.
This I partly disagree with. IMO, the choice is what to do with Hamr's cap space? Replace him with Wiz, a UFA D, or a forward?
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Personally, as I'm unimpressed with who is out their as UFA top-6 forwards I'd rather keep the group already there upgrade the defense. Then sign a strong top-9 forward for less to play with Eller.
That I entirely agree with. It's the reason why I would try to get the D over the top instead as there is an opportunity for this.
Quote:
The scoring woes are due the top forwards all having sub-par seasons, mainly due to vagaries of poor shooting percentage. They're good enough to take this team to the playoffs and if an upgrade is necessary it can be done at the deadline when either a Spacek trade or long-term injury has opened some space. Overpaying long-term for Laich or Jokinen long-term doesn't advance the team much beyond what it is now.
Also having 3 top level offensive defensemen in Markov, Subban and Wisnieski is a good way to promote team offense. All three are good bets to make the top-30 in defenseman scoring next season. What's the difference between getting 40-45 points from a defenseman and getting it from a winger?
Average scoring rates (ppg) of players in Canadiens uniform past 4 (including playoff) years versus scoring rate past regular season:
Player-----Last season---Habs Average
Plekanec:--0.73----------0.72
Cammaleri:-0.70----------0.80
Gionta:----0.56----------0.66
Gomez:----0.46----------0.62
Kostitysn:--0.56----------0.58
Its a rare year when no one over-preforms and only 2 (Plekanec and Kostitsyn) are about average. Consult their shooting percentages versus shots generated as I did here http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...als-offense-is and you get a similar result.
Last year's team could score because they had no depth beyond their top players. This year's team had offensive depth, but its top players underproduced. One is a bad sign the other points to a better next year.
Agreed, although, IMO, a major reason why the forwards underperformed this year is due to Markov's absence.
I know, and that's why my target would either be Hamr, or someone on the market because Wiz is a bad fit if Markov is there.
BTW, that would make Spacek #4. Emelin played a bigger rink with more time to react. The quicker pace, and the substracted fraction of a second to react will make him a #7 for the time it takes for him to adapt. Your vision of Spacek as #6-7 is only based on Emelin and Weber being higher on the D scale, which IMO is false.
If initially it takes (Y)Emelin a fraction of a second longer to react, doesn't he more than compensate by getting to a spot faster than it would take Spacek?
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Originally Posted by Belso
Pouliot is gone IMO. Just trade his rights to a team desperate for offence, (Edmonton, Ottawa, Columbus, etc) for a draft pick and give the extra money to Jagr...
and you can save a little if you sign a cheaper goalie to back up Price. Auld was a good choice last season because it wasn't guaranteed that Price could play so many games and perform the way he did. But now that they know how many games he can play, go get a cheaper goalie...
Desperate for offense? Aren't the Habs just as desperate?
If initially it takes (Y)Emelin a fraction of a second longer to react, doesn't he more than compensate by getting to a spot faster than it would take Spacek?
Hockey vision > speed
because movements happen quickly from many sources in tiny windows of time, and sound positioning has more to do with vision than with speed. It's not just the speed it takes to get somewhere, but the entire dynamics of reflex which is a mental adaptation and has to do with many of them, like pivoting, pokechecking, bodychecking. All of those will be timed differently, using a different more restrained space, and less time to do so. That's why many euros don't make it as quickly in the NHL, because they need to adapt to the quicker pace of the game and the restrained space.
That's why speedy players are usually on the wing, not on defense, because they have to move a lot more than defensemen, whereas the best of defensemen (and centermen) have the highest hockey vision, not the quickest step (although it sure helps to have the two like Subban does, which makes him so unique and he'd probably more suited to be a centerman)
Desperate for offense? Aren't the Habs just as desperate?
If the Habs were just as desperate to play a guy like Pouliot as a forward to score goals, why was he a healthy scratch in the play-offs???? Why did they play webber instead?
Sometimes a team either losses hope on a player, thinks he doesn't bring enough for his skill and salary, don't like his work ethics, etc.. the Habs had their reasons, but their decision to not play him when they needed the best players available in a desperate game speaks volumes..
Some thought Seelane was finished after his stint in Colorado, some teams still give Samsonov a try after some bad seasons with many teams..
All I'm saying is that there are other teams who don't have much depth and might be willing to give Pouliot a try. He's a RFA. If the Habs offer hm 500K next season and another team offers him 600k, he's gone.. You think the Habs want to spend over a million on a guy they gave a one year contract to prove himself and ended up being scratched in a game 7 series?
I can't see why Pacioretty won't play on the top 2 lines next season.. He was only getting better before his meeting with the turnbuckle. He was cleared to play again after Game 7 which they lost.
Who would you rather have? Pouliot or Pacioretty?
Desharnais with less NHL experience plays bigger and has more heart then Pouliot. He also had a better PPG average then Pouliot. So who would you rather have? Desharnais or Pouilot?
Pouliot was making almost $1.4M last season.. If a team offers him $1.6-2M next season, you think the Habs will match that? Pouliot is not going to play as a top 6 IMO and just can't contribute more than anyone else on the team on the bottom 6. There's no more place for him and will become too expensive.. If the Habs offer him minimum and no other team is interested, then fine, let him play when there are injuries and give him a chance to prove himself yet again.. But I'd rather him not take a roster place away from Cammalleri, Ginta, Pacioretty, Kostitsyn or Desharnais. (Ya I know I named 5 but depending on any given night with Martin's line juggling, you never know who the top 4 wingers will be...)
I'd love to see Wiz re-signed (although I would prefer Pitkanen myself...), as he was great for us, and think he could even be better a full season long. And they could still sign him, get over the cap, and fix it before next season begins... now, perhaps they have someone else in mind ? Perhaps Wiz is asking too much... could it be that he don't want to sign here at all ?? Who knows besides Gauthier and Wiz clan, really ? Some posters here need to get their head out of their ass and understand that they only speculate, as we ALL do...
Wisniewski the main reason we made the playoffs? I like Wiz, but Carey Price contributed most to that this season with all the injuries we faced and his play.
In the salary cap era, you can't keep everybody and it looks like Markov will be re-signed over Wisniewski. I'd love for the Wiz to stay on the Habs -- while re-signing Markov and Gorges, but it's just not happening.
Signing Wiz wouldn't be a mistake, he's not a liability in his own end like MAB. Wiz also has heart, he is the only dman on the habs who has a mean streak in him. We need a tiny bit of that.
Signing Wiz wouldn't be a mistake, he's not a liability in his own end like MAB. Wiz also has heart, he is the only dman on the habs who has a mean streak in him. We need a tiny bit of that.
Probably correct for sure! But what will Detroit, etc offer Wiz? I just can't see the Habs going to 6M.
Hey! any guy that takes a puck to the face & plays, is a warrior. I tell you if I ever meet those RDS guys in a PUB that said MAB is the same or better, Nuff Said!
Probably correct for sure! But what will Detroit, etc offer Wiz? I just can't see the Habs going to 6M.
Hey! any guy that takes a puck to the face & plays, is a warrior. I tell you if I ever meet those RDS guys in a PUB that said MAB is the same or better, Nuff Said!
I got to say that I agree that there are 29 other teams who may also have interest in him and can also offer more $$$$$$$.
So it all comes down to one man. Wisniewski... There will be offers to a D like him.. Let's just cross our fingers he enjoyed his time in Montreal and may want to come back...
Yeah, that seems to be the goal....just make the playoffs!
It will be interesting to see Geoff Molson's expectations for his team as team president and of course owner.
If (and only if) Molson is in it for the money - he should be smart enough to know that getting to the final-4 consistantly will bring in more $$$$.
We'll see I guess. What if this is...as good as it gets!
Of course Molson realizes. Players who reach the plyoffs don;t get paid at the same rate as their season salaries, so the owners get aa larger share of the playoff revenue.
[QUOTE=macavoy;33591956]In 4 years Wiz > Markov imo.
Signing Wiz wouldn't be a mistake, he's not a liability in his own end like MAB. Wiz also has heart, he is the only dman on the habs who has a mean streak in him. We need a tiny bit of that.[/QUO
I agree with this. Emelin will also bring some toughness, but whether he becomes a regular defensemen in the lineup is debatable.
Look at Vancouver and how they loaded up on "D" men this past season. It is paying off for them now, as injuries to Hamhuis, Rome's suspension, and season-long adversity in their defensive corps tested their mettle. Mike Gillis looks brilliant right now. Some criticized him for spending too many assets to gain the depth the Canucks have on their blue-line.
Just for the record, I hate the Canucks almost as much as the Bruins and Leafs - but Montreal would be wise to follow Vancouver's lead and construct a "deep" defensive corps if they want to contend deep in the Eastern Conference playoffs let alone contend for a Cup. Wisniewski definitely helps that process.
Look at Vancouver and how they loaded up on "D" men this past season. It is paying off for them now, as injuries to Hamhuis, Rome's suspension, and season-long adversity in their defensive corps tested their mettle. Mike Gillis looks brilliant right now. Some criticized him for spending too many assets to gain the depth the Canucks have on their blue-line.
That's kind of a rosy take on Vancouver's D. If anything, Tanev is making Gillis look like a genius right now while a huge acquisition like Ballard at the cost of Grabner is making Gillis look like a mere mortal.
People forget how bad defensively Wizniewski is and forget how GREAT defensively Markov is.
Just because Markov doesn't throw a check doesn't mean he's bad defensively. He's closest to Lidstrom on defensive style then any one else in the league. Obviously, Lidstrom is one of the greatest defenceman to have ever lived.
Signing Wiz wouldn't be a mistake, he's not a liability in his own end like MAB. Wiz also has heart, he is the only dman on the habs who has a mean streak in him. We need a tiny bit of that.
Markov says Hey to the OP, as without him we wouldn't have made the playoffs the year before.
Point is, it's not the player, but the type of player we need, a premiere offensive Dman. The OP talks about bad memory, but its even worse memory to talk about Wiz and forget he was only there to replace Markov, and if Markov would've played all season long, we would've probably made the playoffs too.
Some people are really bad at logic.
Here's some food for logic. Two years ago the team had the 26th most effective offense. Last year they made a bump to 22nd in the league, worst amongst playoff competitors.
The combination of poor 2011 UFA supply at forward, Scott Gomez's punitive salary/ROI and a development system that is offering no quick fixes, means that a GM must be thinking of creative ways to get better at scoring goals. Having Markov and Wisniewski on the same team doesn't make up for a 40 goal first line centre but it's at least an attempt at addressing the teams most pressing need, and as the saying goes, i'd piss on a sparkplug if I thought it would make it work.
Waiting for Gomez to return to 80 point levels or for 15 guys to have career years simultaneously is not a valid approach. Gauthier has an issue to address, he's a professional that I presume understands that issue, now he needs to execute steps to address it.
Here's some food for logic. Two years ago the team had the 26th most effective offense. Last year they made a bump to 22nd in the league, worst amongst playoff competitors.
The combination of poor 2011 UFA supply at forward, Scott Gomez's punitive salary/ROI and a development system that is offering no quick fixes, means that a GM must be thinking of creative ways to get better at scoring goals. Having Markov and Wisniewski on the same team doesn't make up for a 40 goal first line centre but it's at least an attempt at addressing the teams most pressing need, and as the saying goes, i'd piss on a sparkplug if I thought it would make it work.
Waiting for Gomez to return to 80 point levels or for 15 guys to have career years simultaneously is not a valid approach. Gauthier has an issue to address, he's a professional that I presume understands that issue, now he needs to execute steps to address it.
That's not food for logic, that's your own conclusions based on your assumptions. Now I could easily debate this, but it's been said and done over and over, just search for posts by me with the word "Markov" in your search and you'll know what I mean. And the other reason I don't want to debate this with you is that it's pointless, as I remember all your posts from last year, and just the fact that you still have that username makes me remember just how bad you are at logic and only base your conclusion on your subjective view, without taking arguments that show another side. Maybe you've learned from that as Price has proven you wrong this year, but I highly doubt that. Please don't bother replying to me again. You can do so, but I won't reply.
What if this is...as good as it gets!
