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The Future of Hockey in the Southeast

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Old
06-11-2011, 08:53 PM
  #51
Law
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adaminnj View Post
We shall see. one of the best things that happened with the Atlanta move is that Newfoundland now has a pro hockey team. The moose move is going to be great in Nfl. even in that tiny market. They have more players from the maritimes in the N, A, EC, HL, and Europe than the whole of the southern US.

I just have to add "Give your ed a shake eh"
Those poor players, first Winnipeg and now Newfoundland. No one should be subjected to that kind of cruelty.

Oh, also, with a lack of Manhattan born and bred players, we should explore relocating the Rangers and correct another injustice as soon as possible. My God, there aren't even any outdoor ponds there!

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06-13-2011, 08:22 AM
  #52
tarheelhockey
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I wish there was a poll among NHL players as to how many have played a significant amount of time on ponds.

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06-13-2011, 10:50 AM
  #53
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I'm going to look past the prejudice and approach this from a business perspective.

Adaminnj, I don't think you understand the premise of southern expansion. The idea of putting teams into the south is to expand into new markets. You've probably heard that argument before but have you thought about what that means? A new market means potential customers, customers you don't have yet. Many Canadian/N USA cities that could support a NHL team that do not currently have one still have customers of the game, people that watch the games on TV and buy merchandise - these people are already customers. By expanding to the south you're looking to grow the game and add to the total number of customers.

You don't expect expansion to be profitable right away but you're looking to add customers for the long haul. There might be about two additional Canadian cities worth expanding into that can add total value but at some point if you have too many Canadian teams the markets start to cannibalize each other.

Your lake argument is baseless. The NHL isn't played on a pond, it's played on artificially made ice, which in just about all instances is indoors. Go tell inner-city kids playing baseball in the streets that their hobby isn't worthy of baseball played on a field and their city doesn't deserve a baseball team.

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06-13-2011, 12:18 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blokeyhighlander View Post
I'm going to look past the prejudice and approach this from a business perspective.

Adaminnj, I don't think you understand the premise of southern expansion. The idea of putting teams into the south is to expand into new markets. You've probably heard that argument before but have you thought about what that means? A new market means potential customers, customers you don't have yet. Many Canadian/N USA cities that could support a NHL team that do not currently have one still have customers of the game, people that watch the games on TV and buy merchandise - these people are already customers. By expanding to the south you're looking to grow the game and add to the total number of customers.

You don't expect expansion to be profitable right away but you're looking to add customers for the long haul. There might be about two additional Canadian cities worth expanding into that can add total value but at some point if you have too many Canadian teams the markets start to cannibalize each other.

Your lake argument is baseless. The NHL isn't played on a pond, it's played on artificially made ice, which in just about all instances is indoors. Go tell inner-city kids playing baseball in the streets that their hobby isn't worthy of baseball played on a field and their city doesn't deserve a baseball team.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, that was well thought out, concise, and articulate...you take that crap somewhere else, buddy, we don't want any of your rational thinking around here!




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Old
06-13-2011, 01:36 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blokeyhighlander View Post
I'm going to look past the prejudice and approach this from a business perspective.

Adaminnj, I don't think you understand the premise of southern expansion. The idea of putting teams into the south is to expand into new markets. You've probably heard that argument before but have you thought about what that means? A new market means potential customers, customers you don't have yet. Many Canadian/N USA cities that could support a NHL team that do not currently have one still have customers of the game, people that watch the games on TV and buy merchandise - these people are already customers. By expanding to the south you're looking to grow the game and add to the total number of customers.

You don't expect expansion to be profitable right away but you're looking to add customers for the long haul. There might be about two additional Canadian cities worth expanding into that can add total value but at some point if you have too many Canadian teams the markets start to cannibalize each other.

Your lake argument is baseless. The NHL isn't played on a pond, it's played on artificially made ice, which in just about all instances is indoors. Go tell inner-city kids playing baseball in the streets that their hobby isn't worthy of baseball played on a field and their city doesn't deserve a baseball team.
Your argument is w/o merit in whole. I just heard an interview on AM 590 in TO with Dave Hanson today and a close quote was "I played and liked football and baseball better than hockey, but because I was in Minnesota and I played hockey, could play hockey 10 months a year. I ended up playing college (University) hockey for Minnesota." Grassroots market development works on "GrassRoots" or "Frozen lakes" Kids need to be able to grab a ball and bat, or skates and a stick and go outside to play. I know growing up I would play baseball 3 or 4 times a week after school in the sandlot w/o an organization or grownup in sight. Then have a weekend practice and game for the league I was in. I'm still a baseball fan and still support the Yankees only going to Yankees games in TO, As well My father is from Philly and he no longer lives in PA but still is a fan of all Philly teams and supports all of them. The Phillys, the flyers, the eagles, the lions (PSU) by going to the games, and buying the merchandise.

The Southern market is failing and it was an experiment based on the numbers of Northern transplants with hopes of growing the NHL revenues in that market. I'm not sure that there was ever any demographics done. It seems more like it was Bettman's baby and he is trying to refuse or admit he was wrong.

Your expansion argument would be good but then you would have to explain the MLS markets and why there is no pro cricket, field hockey leagues in the US? Soccer is the worlds #1 sport but it's not getting the foothold in the US market one would expect in a pro-league even with kids playing soccer all over the US and Canada. I do have to say that in some markets MLS teams get a better turnout for home games than southern market hockey teams.

The text I bolded above is just an example of trolling and exactly opposite of what I have been saying. Playing half-rubber in the street is exactly the kind of thing that builds support for a local baseball team. nice try kid-o.
I do feel bad for the kids who bought in to the NHL in the south and now feel like they are being left hung out to dry but this is the NHL and they are out to make money for the owners. The NHL, is an unincorporated not-for-profit association.
I'm done.

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06-13-2011, 03:39 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adaminnj View Post
Your argument is w/o merit in whole. I just heard an interview on AM 590 in TO with Dave Hanson today and a close quote was "I played and liked football and baseball better than hockey, but because I was in Minnesota and I played hockey, could play hockey 10 months a year. I ended up playing college (University) hockey for Minnesota." Grassroots market development works on "GrassRoots" or "Frozen lakes" Kids need to be able to grab a ball and bat, or skates and a stick and go outside to play. I know growing up I would play baseball 3 or 4 times a week after school in the sandlot w/o an organization or grownup in sight. Then have a weekend practice and game for the league I was in. I'm still a baseball fan and still support the Yankees only going to Yankees games in TO, As well My father is from Philly and he no longer lives in PA but still is a fan of all Philly teams and supports all of them. The Phillys, the flyers, the eagles, the lions (PSU) by going to the games, and buying the merchandise.

The Southern market is failing and it was an experiment based on the numbers of Northern transplants with hopes of growing the NHL revenues in that market. I'm not sure that there was ever any demographics done. It seems more like it was Bettman's baby and he is trying to refuse or admit he was wrong.

Your expansion argument would be good but then you would have to explain the MLS markets and why there is no pro cricket, field hockey leagues in the US? Soccer is the worlds #1 sport but it's not getting the foothold in the US market one would expect in a pro-league even with kids playing soccer all over the US and Canada. I do have to say that in some markets MLS teams get a better turnout for home games than southern market hockey teams.

The text I bolded above is just an example of trolling and exactly opposite of what I have been saying. Playing half-rubber in the street is exactly the kind of thing that builds support for a local baseball team. nice try kid-o.
I do feel bad for the kids who bought in to the NHL in the south and now feel like they are being left hung out to dry but this is the NHL and they are out to make money for the owners. The NHL, is an unincorporated not-for-profit association.
I'm done.
You ever hear of street hockey? How about roller hockey? I grew up near DC and played street hockey just about every day for a few years with kids from the neighborhood and we all were endeared to hockey through local roller leagues. There's no ponds to play hockey on in DC and the team is doing quite well.

Your argument about MLS is not comparable. MLS is an inferior product to UEFA. The NHL is the premier hockey product in the world. The NHL is merely expanding it's premier product in countries it already has lucrative markets in. You argument about the MLS would be more akin to putting the KHL in southern US markets and seeing how it works there.

Many southern teams fail because of incompetent ownership and inferior teams. The only team that's had some prolonged (and I use this term loosely) that 's situation doesn't appear to be remediable is Phoenix. Let's not forget those northern markets were in dire situations when they were moved south in the first place.

Grassroots can easily begin with street/roller hockey. Hockey can be played on/off the ice.

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06-13-2011, 04:03 PM
  #57
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Ah man I could just type up so much on this topic but it seems like itd be pretty useless because some people are just so narrow minded on the subject its sad.


So to keep my opinion is simple as possible without getting into all that, yes, Atlanta losing its team does hurt the chances of hockey getting more popular in the south and Id say thats a given.

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06-13-2011, 04:15 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorbjorb View Post
list of rinks in manitoba/winnipeg lol
http://www.arenamaps.com/arenas/Manitoba.htm

where ever you are in winnipeg theres always a sheet of ice you can go on within a 5 km radius
And for 6 months of the year wherever you are in Winnipeg you can skate from your bed to your toilet.

Also - I've never seen a badger within a 5km radius of my house and you don't hear me bragging about it...

Just joking around - I feel bad for the real hockey fans in Atlanta - however many or few of them there are.

Winnipeg: 633,451
Atlanta: 540,000

Holy crap! Winnipeg is bigger than Atlanta?? Who'd have thunk it? The only reason I have ever been to Atlanta is because I was flying Delta to Florida. As for Winnipeg - couldn't find it on a map if you paid me.

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06-13-2011, 05:41 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
And for 6 months of the year wherever you are in Winnipeg you can skate from your bed to your toilet.

Also - I've never seen a badger within a 5km radius of my house and you don't hear me bragging about it...

Just joking around - I feel bad for the real hockey fans in Atlanta - however many or few of them there are.

Winnipeg: 633,451
Atlanta: 540,000

Holy crap! Winnipeg is bigger than Atlanta?? Who'd have thunk it? The only reason I have ever been to Atlanta is because I was flying Delta to Florida. As for Winnipeg - couldn't find it on a map if you paid me.
Atlanta proper? Sure. But most people in Atlanta live in the suburbs. The metro area has 5.2 million people. Winnipeg's metro area has 750K, IIRC.

Winnipeg is much, much smaller.

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06-13-2011, 06:27 PM
  #60
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Vancouver never gets cold enough to play pond hockey (something I'd like to do once before I die) yet, with 100,000+ people downtown alone to watch the SCF, we seem to manage. Yeah, expanding to more base markets (Pacific Northwest, Wisconsin, Manitoba, Quebec, Southern Ontario) would get my vote for smarter expansion strategy, but that ship has gone and sailed. We're in the south now and we should be for the long haul- you don't give fans a taste of the NHL with bad management and poor results than rip it away without leaving many disgruntled and disenchanted with it.

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06-13-2011, 07:16 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adaminnj View Post
Your expansion argument would be good but then you would have to explain the MLS markets and why there is no pro cricket, field hockey leagues in the US? Soccer is the worlds #1 sport but it's not getting the foothold in the US market one would expect in a pro-league even with kids playing soccer all over the US and Canada. I do have to say that in some markets MLS teams get a better turnout for home games than southern market hockey teams
Quick: what triggered the soccer boom in the United States?

Answer: the World Cup being played in America in 1994, despite the fact that previous leagues had failed in the United States even with some of the world's premier talent.

In 1994, the United States did not have anything resembling a decent-quality professional soccer league. FIFA put the World Cup here anyway, anticipating that large crowds of transplants and visitors from out of the country would be able to change that. Shortly after the massive success of the World Cup, MLS was formed and, although it took a while, it's taken hold and been very successful. The United States is starting to produce elite talent....ALL of this was unthinkable 20 years ago.

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06-13-2011, 09:24 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by adaminnj View Post
Kids need to be able to grab a ball and bat, or skates and a stick and go outside to play.
If you'll recall my previous post, I played hockey frequently in North Carolina a time when there were no pro teams in the state. It was simple -- in gym class they gave us plastic sticks and a tennis ball, and set us loose.

I still remember the time in 3rd grade when a girl got a front tooth knocked out

It's never made any sense to me why some people think this sport is completely "foreign" in the south. Pretty much every kid, everywhere, is exposed to hockey at some point in time. For cryin' out loud, it's on primetime network television as I type this. Could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we get NBC down here.


Quote:
Soccer is the worlds #1 sport but it's not getting the foothold in the US market one would expect in a pro-league even with kids playing soccer all over the US and Canada.

Doesn't this pretty much destroy your entire standpoint re: youth participation -> fanbase?

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06-13-2011, 09:28 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckommunist View Post
Vancouver never gets cold enough to play pond hockey (something I'd like to do once before I die) yet, with 100,000+ people downtown alone to watch the SCF, we seem to manage. Yeah, expanding to more base markets (Pacific Northwest, Wisconsin, Manitoba, Quebec, Southern Ontario) would get my vote for smarter expansion strategy, but that ship has gone and sailed. We're in the south now and we should be for the long haul- you don't give fans a taste of the NHL with bad management and poor results than rip it away without leaving many disgruntled and disenchanted with it.
But unless I'm mistaken the NHL never decided they wanted to rip the Thrashers from Atlanta. The old ownership group wanted to sell the team and the NHL was unable to find a qualified buyer who would keep the team in Atlanta.

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06-13-2011, 09:41 PM
  #64
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But unless I'm mistaken the NHL never decided they wanted to rip the Thrashers from Atlanta. The old ownership group wanted to sell the team and the NHL was unable to find a qualified buyer who would keep the team in Atlanta.
One small nuance -- the NHL never bothered looking too hard for a buyer. Without getting bogged down in details, there was no realistic possibility of anybody making a deal that could have kept them in Atlanta due to the circumstances around their arena situation.

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06-14-2011, 12:10 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckommunist View Post
Vancouver never gets cold enough to play pond hockey (something I'd like to do once before I die) yet, with 100,000+ people downtown alone to watch the SCF, we seem to manage. Yeah, expanding to more base markets (Pacific Northwest, Wisconsin, Manitoba, Quebec, Southern Ontario) would get my vote for smarter expansion strategy, but that ship has gone and sailed. We're in the south now and we should be for the long haul- you don't give fans a taste of the NHL with bad management and poor results than rip it away without leaving many disgruntled and disenchanted with it.
Well said. It's at least debatable as to whether they should have secured more 'traditional' markets first, but as you stated, that ship has sailed. Glad Winnipeg got a team again, but I hate that it came at the expense of Atlanta.

Would also love to see Seattle or Portland get a team (expansion!), think it would be a great regional rivalry with the Nucks and to a lesser degree, maybe the Flames and Oil.

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