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Is LW more of a problem than C?

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06-13-2011, 09:57 AM
  #51
NYR Sting
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There is no question that center is the bigger problem, because the biggest problem the team has is a lack of playmaking ability, a lack of players who are capable of producing quality scoring chances for themselves and others. Because center is the more difficult position of the two forward positions, most of the best playmakers are centers. There are always exceptions (in the past, Jagr; today, Kane), but for the most part, the best offensive players and the best playmakers and puck distributors play the center position.

It is for the same reason that whoever suggested that Anisimov (or for that matter, Stepan) movve to wing does not understand the difference in responsibility between center and wing. Why would you move the smartest defensive forward we have to the wing, where he will have less responsibility? That would be a horrible move. That's misusing an asset.

Boyle should be moved to LW, because like Dubinsky, his package of abilities is better suited to the wing, as he is more of a goalscorer than a playmaker, and because the center position has too many responsibilities for him to handle.

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06-13-2011, 11:36 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Boyle should be moved to LW, because like Dubinsky, his package of abilities is better suited to the wing, as he is more of a goalscorer than a playmaker, and because the center position has too many responsibilities for him to handle.
I wouldn't move Boyle anywhere. He is not top 6 Power Forward Dubi is. Boyles production is not something that makes him someone with unused potential. If Feds let go WW-Boyle-Prust could play well.
Good post otherwise.

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06-13-2011, 11:45 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I wouldn't move Boyle anywhere. He is not top 6 Power Forward Dubi is. Boyles production is not something that makes him someone with unused potential. If Feds let go WW-Boyle-Prust could play well.
Good post otherwise.
Well, I didn't say Boyle is a top 6 power forward, just that he's better suited to play the wing position. I wasn't comparing him to Dubinsky in terms of talent. It's not all about production, it's more about what the players do aside from production.

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06-13-2011, 11:52 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well, I didn't say Boyle is a top 6 power forward, just that he's better suited to play the wing position. I wasn't comparing him to Dubinsky in terms of talent. It's not all about production, it's more about what the players do aside from production.
Every time you demote the player from C to W it cost you money and you hurt the guy, at least initially. Also there is no replacement/upgrade for Boyle from within at the moment and you know it. Although I see you point about Boyle not being good playmaker, he should stay put unless Richards signs elsewhere and entire roster would come in motion. That is possible, but I'd move Stepan to the wing first if no UFA aquired.

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06-13-2011, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Every time you demote the player from C to W it cost you money and you hurt the guy, at least initially.
Cost you money? I'm not sure I see how, but take a look at Dubinsky. The move from center to wing had rough patches along the way, but he's a much better winger than he is a center. That much is pretty clear. Boyle is not as good as Dubinsky, but he would benefit from a move to the wing for many of the same reasons.

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Also there is no replacement/upgrade for Boyle from within at the moment and you know it.
I'm not saying that needs to happen now. I'm not sure how long Boyle remains with this club anyway, but if he does stick around, then I think his future will see him as a winger.

Lindberg, BTW, is our option there for the future. Grachev could be a possibility.

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Although I see you point about Boyle not being good playmaker, he should stay put unless Richards signs elsewhere and entire roster would come in motion. That is possible, but I'd move Stepan to the wing first if no UFA aquired.
If we don't sign ANY free agent centers, including Richards, you probably see Stepan as the first line center, barring a trade. In that case, Boyle definitely remains at center.

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06-13-2011, 02:11 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Cost you money? I'm not sure I see how, but take a look at Dubinsky. The move from center to wing had rough patches along the way, but he's a much better winger than he is a center. That much is pretty clear. Boyle is not as good as Dubinsky, but he would benefit from a move to the wing for many of the same reasons.
You save money by paying winger less. You lose money by buying C to play the position. The balance usually negative. Sather spent millions to replace Dubinski and save a few hundred grand to pay Dubi less on the wing. The fact that Sather bought expensive Cs beforehand by signing DRUMEZ doesn't change anything. Dubi had no chance at C as he was out as soon as Jagr was out. Luckily Dubi is successful on the wing, but size is what really helps there. He sniping is not up to 1st line still. Dubi would be a great replacement for Boyle, if he has stamina to play C, but it is something we cannot currently afford. If Richards is out and Sather gets someone like Leino, then Dubi may go back to center, but serious upgrade to Dubi on LW will not be cheap


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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I'm not saying that needs to happen now. I'm not sure how long Boyle remains with this club anyway, but if he does stick around, then I think his future will see him as a winger.
I agree, although Boyle may be disappointed with your conclusion. There is no centers that see themself as a wing, very much like only a few centerfielders would be okay to play at the corners.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If we don't sign ANY free agent centers, including Richards, you probably see Stepan as the first line center, barring a trade. In that case, Boyle definitely remains at center.
If no Richards, we keep AA for that role. Stepan may end up on same line but as a wing, IMO, but Sather will bring FA. If Richards signed AA is as good as gone. We've got no better asset at the moment.

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06-13-2011, 02:23 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
You save money by paying winger less. You lose money by buying C to play the position. The balance usually negative. Sather spent millions to replace Dubinski and save a few hundred grand to pay Dubi less on the wing. The fact that Sather bought expensive Cs beforehand by signing DRUMEZ doesn't change anything. Dubi had no chance at C as he was out as soon as Jagr was out. Luckily Dubi is successful on the wing, but size is what really helps there. He sniping is not up to 1st line still. Dubi would be a great replacement for Boyle, if he has stamina to play C, but it is something we cannot currently afford. If Richards is out and Sather gets someone like Leino, then Dubi may go back to center, but serious upgrade to Dubi on LW will not be cheap
You aren't buying a center to play the position. You are moving a young, relatively unproven RFA on an affordable contract to his proper position.

Dubinsky is on the wing because he belongs there, not because Sather was trying to save money. Dubinsky is not as effective as a center. I don't know what you're talking about with Dubinsky as a replacement for Boyle? You want Dubinsky to be a third or fourth line center? That's insane. Ideally, Dubinsky is a 2nd line LW, but he's solid as a 1st line LW, depending on the other two layers on his line.

Leino or not, Dubinsky is not moving to center.

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I agree, although Boyle may be disappointed with your conclusion. There is no centers that see themself as a wing, very much like only a few centerfielders would be okay to play at the corners.
Who cares?

No one would take Brian Boyle seriously as a prima donna. He's switched from D to C already. The man has 1 good season under his belt. He'll do what he's told if he wants to stay here. and if he doesn't, then you don't really want him here anyway.

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If no Richards, we keep AA for that role. Stepan may end up on same line but as a wing, IMO. If Richards signed AA is as good as gone. We've got no better asset at the moment.
If we don't sign Richards, there is no chance that Stepan will be a winger on Anisimov's line. Nor do I think Anisimov is "as good as gone" if we get Richards. Trade him in a package for a better player, maybe, but no problem holding on to him. He's a very good young player.

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06-13-2011, 03:10 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
You aren't buying a center to play the position. You are moving a young, relatively unproven RFA on an affordable contract to his proper position.
Not everyone plays proper position. Anyone can play wing since it is an easiest job of all. You have to utilize the player at the toughest job he can handle. That's asset management. Boyle may score a few more, but if he can play C at bottom 6, keep him there. 3C is tougher job to handle than any wing on any line.


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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Dubinsky is on the wing because he belongs there, not because Sather was trying to save money. Dubinsky is not as effective as a center.
Since Nylander we didn't have anyone being effective as a C. Well, Boyle may be. If we are to move all ineffective Cs to the wing we wont have anyone at that position. Dubi was ineffective, true, but he was as ineffective as anyone else. No one saves money or ever did here. I was referring to necessity to replace the winger you move due to ineffectiveness. It comes with cost. We have a salary cap and all adds up.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
You want Dubinsky to be a third or fourth line center? That's insane. Ideally, Dubinsky is a 2nd line LW, but he's solid as a 1st line LW, depending on the other two layers on his line.

Leino or not, Dubinsky is not moving to center.
Okay, I can give you that. But then there is no one to replace Boyle at C no matter how good he might be at the wing. Boyle stays put. Just tried to help you out with replacement for Boyle, not to take Dubi off the wing at any cost.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Who cares?

No one would take Brian Boyle seriously as a prima donna. He's switched from D to C already. The man has 1 good season under his belt. He'll do what he's told if he wants to stay here. and if he doesn't, then you don't really want him here anyway.
Boyle is here to stay. We made a mistake letting Betts go. He could be better.



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If we don't sign Richards, there is no chance that Stepan will be a winger on Anisimov's line. .
So far Stepan is nothing special as a C, but it is too early to tell. He needs to gain weight and improve strenght. This is the only way to bypass AA.
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Trade him in a package for a better player, maybe, but no problem holding on to him. He's a very good young player.
He will be traded if Richards here and Stepan not at wing. How else we will get the offense we missing?

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06-13-2011, 11:34 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Not everyone plays proper position. Anyone can play wing since it is an easiest job of all. You have to utilize the player at the toughest job he can handle. That's asset management. Boyle may score a few more, but if he can play C at bottom 6, keep him there. 3C is tougher job to handle than any wing on any line.
In 2012-2013:

Richards-Stepan-Anisimov-Lindberg

Quote:
Since Nylander we didn't have anyone being effective as a C. Well, Boyle may be. If we are to move all ineffective Cs to the wing we wont have anyone at that position. Dubi was ineffective, true, but he was as ineffective as anyone else. No one saves money or ever did here. I was referring to necessity to replace the winger you move due to ineffectiveness. It comes with cost. We have a salary cap and all adds up.
Anisimov has been effective at center. Stepan probably will be more effective next season.

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Boyle is here to stay. We made a mistake letting Betts go. He could be better.
Boyle is an expendable asset that holds some value. He's one of the likeliest players on the roster to be moved in a trade, IMO. Girardi and Boyle.

Quote:
So far Stepan is nothing special as a C, but it is too early to tell. He needs to gain weight and improve strenght. This is the only way to bypass AA.
Stepan may not have really played the position all that well last year, but based on his abilities and his experience, he won't be moved from center ice, whether we get Richards or not. If we don't get Richards, it's not so much that he's bypassing Anisimov, it's more like we don't have a real first line. Anisimov works well with Callahan, and without Richards, Stepan will be the only choice we have for Gaborik.

Quote:
He will be traded if Richards here and Stepan not at wing. How else we will get the offense we missing?
I don't think we'll be missing all that much offense if we get Richards. He'll revitalize Gaborik, and everyone else will move down a line meaning easier opposition to play against. If we'll need more help offensively, more than anything, it'll need to come from the back end.

In a couple of years, we could be dealing with all of the following forwards:

Richards, Dubinsky, Callahan, Gaborik, Kreider, Thomas, Hagelin, Stepan, Anisimov, MZA, Prust, Lindberg.

Anisimov will be a key defensive forward for this team.

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06-14-2011, 07:47 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
In 2012-2013:

Richards-Stepan-Anisimov-Lindberg
All are top 6 material. Thus, it's a redundant group. If Lindberg and Anisimov are headed to bottom 6 we better get something from the teams that could use them where they belong. That is why I think they may be moved, if we get Richards. Why do you think we need to upgrade at 3C? It's not a problem as of now, we have other holes to address... I think you are reaching with your idea to move Boyle to a wing. That's why.
Look, AA is on my avatar since Higgins gone (nice job in VAN, eh?), I love the guy, but he has a value that we can use to get very good forward to upgrade Dubi, if Dubi not traded. He will have much more interest.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
. Anisimov works well with Callahan, and without Richards, Stepan will be the only choice we have for Gaborik.
May be, may be not. It is a risky proposition. Who knows what Gaborik needs, if anything... In any case I don't think a sophomore center with obvious risk of typical slump is a reliable solution. I'd stick with Anisimov at 1C and would try to see if he can be developed into Richards, Rucinski or Madden.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I don't think we'll be missing all that much offense if we get Richards. He'll revitalize Gaborik, and everyone else will move down a line meaning easier opposition to play against. If we'll need more help offensively, more than anything, it'll need to come from the back end.
Is that you, Sting? Read it over again, you've been hacked.

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