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Old
06-13-2011, 02:40 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OILERS91 View Post
We give you Gagner, smid 19th, 31st and we take carter and 2 salary dumps. Versteeg and carle. We send you 4.0 million and you give us 12.5 million is salary so 8.5 million in cap relief.
How about you give us Gagner, Smid, 1st Overall for Carter, and PAY for our "salary dumps" of Versteeg and Carle with the 19th and 31st?

You want stuff for free? For no reason?




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Originally Posted by willch878 View Post
If Columbus is offering Voracek and their 8th overall for Carter, I'd take it and run.

Getting rid of Carter gives you the cap space you need to sign Bryz without having to get rid of anyone else on the Flyers' roster.

So you're basically getting Bryzgalov, Voracek, and Columbus' 8th in exchange for Carter.

Voracek alone has about equal the natural talent (albeit unrealized) as Carter. If you could get Ryan Strome with that 8th..... then you're getting two forwards with about the same natural talent (albeit unrealized) as Carter...... this in addition to finally getting a legit goalie.
Wait...

Your logic is off...

They're not giving us "Bryzgalov" + Voracek + 8th because we get Bryzgalov signed theoretically if we dump Carle. So nobody is giving us Bryzgalov regardless of how we decided or do not decide to sign him.

And also, I don't see Voracek ever becoming as good as Carter. It's just nice that he's physical, talented, and on the wing where we need him.

Also, that 8th, probably used on a defenseman like Hamilton at this point.

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06-13-2011, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by OILERS91 View Post
We give you Gagner, smid 19th, 31st and we take carter and 2 salary dumps. Versteeg and carle. We send you 4.0 million and you give us 12.5 million is salary so 8.5 million in cap relief.
Counter

Eberle, 19th, MPS for Carter


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06-13-2011, 02:51 PM
  #78
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I was thinking that the salary dumps were helpful but I can see how that is very lopsided to oilers.

Carter would be nice but I think we would take our chances with RNH.

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06-13-2011, 02:53 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
I'm saying that stating length of contract as an issue for Carter and not Richards is absurd. Aside from that, your offer blows.


If you think Eberle is more untouchable than Richards, something is wrong with you.

Yeah, i guess he is your captain and all. Okies, how about Gagner, Smid, 19th pick for Carter?
Saves you cap, and gets rid of an albatross of a contract.

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06-13-2011, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
How about you give us Gagner, Smid, 1st Overall for Carter, and PAY for our "salary dumps" of Versteeg and Carle with the 19th and 31st?
You want stuff for free? For no reason?






Wait...

Your logic is off...

They're not giving us "Bryzgalov" + Voracek + 8th because we get Bryzgalov signed theoretically if we dump Carle. So nobody is giving us Bryzgalov regardless of how we decided or do not decide to sign him.

And also, I don't see Voracek ever becoming as good as Carter. It's just nice that he's physical, talented, and on the wing where we need him.

Also, that 8th, probably used on a defenseman like Hamilton at this point.

Now you're just getting silly...Seriously. You can't be that much of a Homer for Carter. His contract is good if it was only for another 4-5 years not 11. In return you get 2 #1 picks (Gags and 19th), and a servicable #4-5 D. Gags would be killer on one of your wings and he's got 4 years of NHL experience under his belt at 21. He's only going to get better.

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06-13-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booya42 View Post
Yeah, i guess he is your captain and all. Okies, how about Gagner, Smid, 19th pick for Carter?
Saves you cap, and gets rid of an albatross of a contract.
Carter's contract is long but cheap for his production.

I'd trade him if possible though, but $5.27 in 8 years might be nothing anyway.

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06-13-2011, 03:03 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
How about you give us Gagner, Smid, 1st Overall for Carter, and PAY for our "salary dumps" of Versteeg and Carle with the 19th and 31st?

You want stuff for free? For no reason?






Wait...

Your logic is off...

They're not giving us "Bryzgalov" + Voracek + 8th because we get Bryzgalov signed theoretically if we dump Carle. So nobody is giving us Bryzgalov regardless of how we decided or do not decide to sign him.

And also, I don't see Voracek ever becoming as good as Carter. It's just nice that he's physical, talented, and on the wing where we need him.

Also, that 8th, probably used on a defenseman like Hamilton at this point.
My logic wasn't meant to be fully dead on.... hence the words "you're basically".

But I'm right in that only Carter's cap could be traded one-for-one based on what Bryz will be asking for (something in the $5-6m range).... unless you think trading Richards is a better idea or you're able to find someone willing to take on Briere's contract.

I don't know how you get the idea we can afford Bryz by merely dumping Carle.

If we sign Bryz, we don't have the cap space to ice a full (23-24 man) roster by merely dumping him..... unless you assume the cap goes up to $62-63m AND you're willing to round out the roster by filling up 5 forward spots and 2 D spots with players making about $600-$700k. That hurts the team more than simply getting rid of Carter imo because as we've all seen this year and last year.... depth is what wins championships. Good defenses will be able to shut down your first and second lines in the playoffs. Just look at the Canucks.... it's their third line that's providing all the scoring right now.

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06-13-2011, 03:08 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Carter's contract is long but cheap for his production.

I'd trade him if possible though, but $5.27 in 8 years might be nothing anyway.
True, though there is still a lot of inherent risk in taking on a contract that has 11 years left and takes the player to 38? IIRC, that's right.

That's just such a LOONG time. I mean, he gets to 33 and gets a serious injury, which would still give him 6-7 years of solid hockey, but then you're left with a brutal contract for the last 5 years.

I don't think it really lowers Carter's value, but I think it does seperate the return from being great and being exceptional. If that deal has 6 years left and not 11, I think the Flyers would get a ridiculous return for Carter.

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06-13-2011, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booya42 View Post
Now you're just getting silly...Seriously. You can't be that much of a Homer for Carter. His contract is good if it was only for another 4-5 years not 11. In return you get 2 #1 picks (Gags and 19th), and a servicable #4-5 D. Gags would be killer on one of your wings and he's got 4 years of NHL experience under his belt at 21. He's only going to get better.
I like Smid. I'd be curious in deals outside of this such as Versteeg + Carle for Smid + 19th/31st.

As far as Carter is concerned, Gagner doesn't impress me, RNH (we'd be picking Larsson anyway I think) is head of a weak class and possibly won't even hit Carter's level, and Smid does not do enough to ease my fears about the draft class.


As far as the 19th instead of the 1st overall...(compared to Voracek and 8th from CBJ)

I like Voracek's future more than Gagner.
The 8th overall does a lot more for me than 19th + Smid.

So basically you lowballed the Columbus rumor, and you expect me to just agree that you're within fair territory of getting Carter?

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06-13-2011, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
True, though there is still a lot of inherent risk in taking on a contract that has 11 years left and takes the player to 38? IIRC, that's right.

That's just such a LOONG time. I mean, he gets to 33 and gets a serious injury, which would still give him 6-7 years of solid hockey, but then you're left with a brutal contract for the last 5 years.

I don't think it really lowers Carter's value, but I think it does seperate the return from being great and being exceptional. If that deal has 6 years left and not 11, I think the Flyers would get a ridiculous return for Carter.
people always use this logic and it doesn't make any sense to me.

the league salary cap has been on a steady increase nearly every off season.

in 3 or 4 years, jeff carter suddenly has one of the best cap hits in the league.

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06-13-2011, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by willch878 View Post
I don't know how you get the idea we can afford Bryz by merely dumping Carle.
Dump Carle. Waive Shelley + Leighton + Walker. Lappy to LTIR.

Bryz has to come under 6.00m for that to work snugly, but it can be done.

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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
people always use this logic and it doesn't make any sense to me.

the league salary cap has been on a steady increase nearly every off season.

in 3 or 4 years, jeff carter suddenly has one of the best cap hits in the league.
Believe it or not, it's a shame we're not going to be able to keep everyone together this year. One of Carle, Versteeg, or Hartnell has to be moved at least.

But from the new TV deal that's being put in place next year, you should see a dramatic rise in the cap again. We could've potentially been able to keep the whole team plus Bryz.

But yeah, it's going to be fun on this team in a couple years when we get a jump in cap space and Timonen's and Hartnell's contracts come off the books. Magic 10.50m+ to get a new #1 defenseman while everyone else is locked up to what will be great contracts.

I want Carter to stay.

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06-13-2011, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Dump Carle. Waive Shelley + Leighton + Walker. Lappy to LTIR.

Bryz has to come under 6.00m for that to work snugly, but it can be done.
I already assumed all of what you suggested above except the waiving of Leighton part.

I went ahead and waived Leighton this time and ran the numbers on that scenario..... assuming a $62.5m cap.... we'd still need to fill 10 roster spots (6 forwards, 3 D spots, and 1 backup goalie) with $7.03m in cap space. That's an average of $700k per player.

Seriously, it makes more sense imo to get rid of Carter. We need depth to win in the playoffs. If Carter was the type of player who stepped it up big time in the playoffs, maybe you could argue it might be worth keeping him at the loss of depth.... but we all know the opposite happens with Carter in the playoffs..... he plays worse than he does in the regular season.

He's put up a mere 21 points in 41 playoff games the last four playoffs.

I think we're definitely stronger getting rid of him in favor of depth.

Let's not forget, the above-scenario means we also lose Leino. Leino alone does more in the playoffs than Carter.

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06-13-2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I like Smid. I'd be curious in deals outside of this such as Versteeg + Carle for Smid + 19th/31st.

As far as Carter is concerned, Gagner doesn't impress me, RNH (we'd be picking Larsson anyway I think) is head of a weak class and possibly won't even hit Carter's level, and Smid does not do enough to ease my fears about the draft class.


As far as the 19th instead of the 1st overall...(compared to Voracek and 8th from CBJ)

I like Voracek's future more than Gagner.
The 8th overall does a lot more for me than 19th + Smid.

So basically you lowballed the Columbus rumor, and you expect me to just agree that you're within fair territory of getting Carter?
First bolded - Fair enough on that..

Second bolded - There's rumours that we also are looking to grab that 8th pick lol. Maybe a three way is in the works??

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06-13-2011, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by willch878 View Post
I already assumed all of what you suggested above except the waiving of Leighton part.

I went ahead and waived Leighton this time and ran the numbers on that scenario..... assuming a $62.5m cap.... we'd still need to fill 10 roster spots (6 forwards, 3 D spots, and 1 backup goalie) with $7.03m in cap space. That's an average of $700k per player.
Sestito, Wellwood, Bartulis, and Rinaldo are all less than that. Read isn't too far off either. Neither is Gustafsson.

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Originally Posted by willch878 View Post
Seriously, it makes more sense imo to get rid of Carter. We need depth to win in the playoffs. If Carter was the type of player who stepped it up big time in the playoffs, maybe you could argue it might be worth keeping him at the loss of depth.... but we all know the opposite happens with Carter in the playoffs..... he plays worse than he does in the regular season.

He's put up a mere 21 points in 41 playoff games the last four playoffs.

I think we're definitely stronger getting rid of him in favor of depth.

Let's not forget, the above-scenario means we also lose Leino. Leino alone does more in the playoffs than Carter.


That "depth" you're saying is worth more than Carter is Carle and/or Versteeg or Hartnell.

Please, please, please can we not turn this into another stupid bash Carter thread. Cartsiephan* (god rest his soul) would be rolling in his banishment grave right now if he knew someone was stealing his job.

It's a shame how a few people on the Flyers board have tarnished Carter's name across all of HFBoards. I can't tell you how many people still think he's terrible defensively.

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06-13-2011, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
True, though there is still a lot of inherent risk in taking on a contract that has 11 years left and takes the player to 38? IIRC, that's right.

That's just such a LOONG time. I mean, he gets to 33 and gets a serious injury, which would still give him 6-7 years of solid hockey, but then you're left with a brutal contract for the last 5 years.

I don't think it really lowers Carter's value, but I think it does seperate the return from being great and being exceptional. If that deal has 6 years left and not 11, I think the Flyers would get a ridiculous return for Carter.
1. Carter gets paid $7M total in his final three years. Not bad at all.
2. His contract is insured. I'm not sure how it works in hockey, but I'm sure the insurance company would pay a good chunk of change if he got badly injured.
3. Even if he does get badly injured, any team can just throw him on LTIR and his cap space opens up.

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06-13-2011, 03:39 PM
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First bolded - Fair enough on that..

Second bolded - There's rumours that we also are looking to grab that 8th pick lol. Maybe a three way is in the works??
Probably not.

Word is that we're not interested in moving Carter. I'm happy with that.

Like I said though, I'd be interested in something like Smid + 19th/31st for Carle + Versteeg.

Smid would fit nicely in our 5 spot at a solid price. You guys get an upgrade in Carle who can move the puck, though you're going to want to get him some defensive support. Then we give you a 20-goal scorer for what amounts to a late 1st in a weak draft.

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06-13-2011, 03:48 PM
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Probably not.

Word is that we're not interested in moving Carter. I'm happy with that.

Like I said though, I'd be interested in something like Smid + 19th/31st for Carle + Versteeg.

Smid would fit nicely in our 5 spot at a solid price. You guys get an upgrade in Carle who can move the puck, though you're going to want to get him some defensive support. Then we give you a 20-goal scorer for what amounts to a late 1st in a weak draft.
Ach, but we don't need wingers...We need a #1 C - hence the whole Carter/Richards thing.

I'm curious to see how this plays out if it does..

Are the rumours true about Richards not really getting along with Laviolette and Pronger? Is it true that Ed Snider actually said that they'd consider trading Richards? If so, then it wouldn't be outside the realm of possiblity that he could be traded - make Pronger your next captain and all. It's been made clear that Carter is out of the picture for trades.

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06-13-2011, 03:52 PM
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Sestito, Wellwood, Bartulis, and Rinaldo are all less than that. Read isn't too far off either. Neither is Gustafsson.





That "depth" you're saying is worth more than Carter is Carle and/or Versteeg or Hartnell.

Please, please, please can we not turn this into another stupid bash Carter thread. Cartsiephan* (god rest his soul) would be rolling in his banishment grave right now if he knew someone was stealing his job.

It's a shame how a few people on the Flyers board have tarnished Carter's name across all of HFBoards. I can't tell you how many people still think he's terrible defensively.
I think I need to face palm too .

Your valuation and assessment of Carter does not comport with the facts nor reality.

That depth is not Carle and/or Versteeg or Hartnell.

That depth is Carle and Leino. I think we should probably trade Versteeg regardless of whether we keep Carter or not.

I don't dislike Carter. Sure, I'd like to keep him if we could.

But I prefer Carle and Leino over just Carter.

Let's see.....Leino has 26 points in 30 gp the last two playoffs.... that's 5 more points than Carter has put up in four playoffs.

And while I'm not the biggest fan of Carle, he brings speed and puck-moving ability from the back end.... which we've seen with Vancouver this year (Ehrhoff, Edler, Bieksa, Hamhuis) and Chicago (Keith, Campbell, Hjalmarsson) last year..... is something you can't have enough of. You know what.... let's add Detroit a couple years ago to that list too (Lidstrom, Kronwall, Rafalski).

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06-13-2011, 03:56 PM
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If it comes down to keeping Carter or Leino and Carle, I'd kick Leino and Carle out the door, deadbolt it, and board up the windows.

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06-13-2011, 04:05 PM
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Seriously, it makes more sense imo to get rid of Carter. We need depth to win in the playoffs. If Carter was the type of player who stepped it up big time in the playoffs, maybe you could argue it might be worth keeping him at the loss of depth.... but we all know the opposite happens with Carter in the playoffs..... he plays worse than he does in the regular season.

He's put up a mere 21 points in 41 playoff games the last four playoffs.

I think we're definitely stronger getting rid of him in favor of depth.

Let's not forget, the above-scenario means we also lose Leino. Leino alone does more in the playoffs than Carter.



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06-13-2011, 04:09 PM
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06-13-2011, 04:11 PM
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Right, forgot that one.


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06-13-2011, 04:21 PM
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If it comes down to keeping Carter or Leino and Carle, I'd kick Leino and Carle out the door, deadbolt it, and board up the windows.
I wouldn't mind all three leaving. I think this team would have much more success if they changed their mindset to a more north/south type of game than an east/west style. I think all three listed above tend to fall into the latter category. Leino especially. Versteeg has an edge about him, which is why I think keeping him and bringing in a Larose type player would help change the culture around here.

I think Carter is a very good player, he's just frustrating at times because he has the tools to be so much more. If he made a consistent effort to get inside and bang with the defenseman and get those dirty goals (where I believe he gets most of his goals) instead of taking a half dozen perimeter shots into ankles, I think he would be brought up a lot more in conversations regarding the league's top goal scorers.

Ultimately, Carter probably won't get moved because his size would be sorely missed down the middle.

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06-13-2011, 04:25 PM
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I wouldn't mind all three leaving. I think this team would have much more success if they changed their mindset to a more north/south type of game than an east/west style. I think all three listed above tend to fall into the latter category. Leino especially. Versteeg has an edge about him, which is why I think keeping him and bringing in a Larose type player would help change the culture around here.

I think Carter is a very good player, he's just frustrating at times because he has the tools to be so much more. If he made a consistent effort to get inside and bang with the defenseman and get those dirty goals (where I believe he gets most of his goals) instead of taking a half dozen perimeter shots into ankles, I think he would be brought up a lot more in conversations regarding the league's top goal scorers.

Ultimately, Carter probably won't get moved because his size would be sorely missed down the middle.
Well, he finished 5th overall for the season in even strength goals, so he should be in those discussions anyways.

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06-13-2011, 04:32 PM
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Well, he finished 5th overall for the season in even strength goals, so he should be in those discussions anyways.
I know he's up there statistically, but rarely do you hear his name brought up and held to such high regard.

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