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A Max Pac away from Winning the Cup?

View Poll Results: What if we had Max?
Yes 26 16.67%
No 38 24.36%
We could have beat the Bruins, but would have lost eventually 92 58.97%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-14-2011, 07:36 AM
  #51
Pascal
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It makes no sense and ignores the fact that Mtl - Phi is a different matchup than Bos - Phi. same thing with TB.

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06-14-2011, 08:02 AM
  #52
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I think we would have beaten the Bruins but Tampa would have beaten us. I just get that feeling. Then it would have been anybodies game in Tampa vs Vancouver.

If we made it to the final I think we could have beat Vancouver and I did from day one, but I don't think we would have made it to Vancouver.

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Old
06-14-2011, 08:11 AM
  #53
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I don't know if this will apply only to this year's playoffs or if it has become the norm but I did notice a very interesting thing.

The Bruins without Chara are a mediocre team. The first game he was ill and he missed the second. We beat the Bruins in both games in their rink.

The Flyers without Pronger are not the powerhouse everyone thinks. The Bruins swatted them away like a bunch of house flies.

The Canucks without the Sedins are beatable. I think the difference in this series is not Luongo but the disappearing act of the Sedins.

So what can we assume from all this? Yes a HEALTHY Habs team can go to the SCF and probably win it. But it has to be a HEALTHY team, firing on all cylinders. And staying healthy is the key. We went into the Bruins series missing Markov, Patches & Gorges. We had Halpern, Pleks, Cammy, the Wiz, Eller and DD that were either playing seriously hurt or got hurt during the series.

The Canucks are missing Samuelson, Hamuis, Rome. The Sedins got lost in Stanley Park when they beat San Jose, Malhorta is a shadow of himself, Keseler is playing on half a groin and last night they lost Raymond.

Let's look at the Bruins: Savard and Horton the last three games. That's it.

Avoiding being an injury plagued team takes two things: luck and depth.

There's nothing we can do about the luck part except maybe have some burnt offerings to the gods.

For the depth part - we need to get another top 6 (or maybe top 9) winger. We need Pouliot to either improve or be replaced by someone better. We need Gomez well, never mind Gomez, same applies to him as it does to Pouliot. That's the best we can hope for from him. We need to tweak a couple of our bottom 6 with more grit and size.

The defence could round up into very good shape if we sign Markov, Gorges & the Wiz.

The goaltending situation is a godsend or it could be a disaster. Price goes down and we become the Flyers without Pronger.


Last edited by onice: 06-14-2011 at 08:18 AM.
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Old
06-14-2011, 09:52 AM
  #54
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Where did I say that we signed Jagr?
You added him in brackets to our lineup. He's not on our team so please leave him out of it.

If he signs, then it's a different discussion. He's one of the all time best forwards ever. Even at 38 or 39 (however old he is) he'd probably still be our best forward. Maybe he comes back as a 60 point guy or maybe he pulls a Selanne and is a 50/100 guy. He's not with us right now though so it's silly to talk about him.
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
So you're saying that you already knew who would win the cup or make it to the finals after the trade deadline?
I'm saying that our forwards are nowhere near good enough to win a cup. Boston's aren't much better but at least they have size and a goalie with the best save percentage in history in front of them right now. Not to mention this year's probable Norris winner.

And I picked Vancouver to win the cup at the start of the playoffs. We'll see how that one works out because they have been Jeckle and Hyde this series. I also picked Chicago last year and Pittsburgh the year before btw.
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
I'm not saying that we are winning the cup for sure with that line up but we could be battling for the cup with that line up. Both of the Stanley Cup finalist were at 1 goal from being eliminated in the first round, everything is possible in the playoffs.

And lol at thinking we would be worst than the Leafs, Trashers(Jets), Islanders, Carolina, Sens, Panthers, Sabres, Rangers etc with that line up above.
The Thrashers, Islanders, Hurricanes, Sabres, Rangers and Leafs all had as good or better offense than we did. You sure you want to use them as examples? We came in 23rd in the league in goals for. We came in 26th in the league in 5 on 5 scoring. That is not a cup calibre team, sorry.

We're a lot closer to the Rangers, Sabres and Leafs than we are to Vancouver, Pittsburgh or Detroit. That was my point. And yes if I had to bet on us missing the playoffs vs. us winning the cup or even making it to the finals, I'd bet hard on us missing the postseason. So would anyone. We're not a cup contending team right now and we live and die for the playoffs by Carey Price.

If Carey Price turns into Ken Dryden next year then maybe he can carry us the way Roy did. Even Dominik Hasek wasn't good enough to do it though and we're still waiting to see on Thomas. The vast majority of cup winners have multi HOF players on it. We don't have that and all of our hopes would be on Price. Come on man, be realistic here. I can't think of a team that came in 23rd in offense actually winning a cup.

And flip it around. What if Price has an average or below par season? You don't think that we'd miss the postseason? Of course we would. Why? Because our forwards just aren't that great and we only seem to be be able to score on the PP. Your argument about us being contenders would rest on everyone having a career year and it never works out that way.

We have some promising guys to build around and with Subban's emergence, I'm more optimistic for the future but I don't see how anyone could realistically think that we're contenders with the forwards we have right now.
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
It makes no sense and ignores the fact that Mtl - Phi is a different matchup than Bos - Phi. same thing with TB.
It also makes no sense to ignore the fact that should Boston win, they would be arguably the weakest cup winning team of all time (along with maybe the '86 Canadiens who were probably still better.) This, despite the fact that they have a goalie who had a season with the best save percentage of the modern era as well as this year's probable Norris winner.

As good as Subban and Price are, I don't see either of them being able to do that next season.

People here who try to argue that we are contenders always use the absolute weakest winning teams to try to justify their arguments. The fact is that the vast majority of winning clubs were legit contenders before going in, did well in the standings and have HOF players on it. THOSE are the clubs we should emulate.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 06-14-2011 at 10:11 AM.
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Old
06-14-2011, 10:05 AM
  #55
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With Markov, Max and Gorges, we would've had good chances.

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06-14-2011, 10:11 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
I don't know if this will apply only to this year's playoffs or if it has become the norm but I did notice a very interesting thing.

The Bruins without Chara are a mediocre team. The first game he was ill and he missed the second. We beat the Bruins in both games in their rink.

The Flyers without Pronger are not the powerhouse everyone thinks. The Bruins swatted them away like a bunch of house flies.

The Canucks without the Sedins are beatable. I think the difference in this series is not Luongo but the disappearing act of the Sedins.

So what can we assume from all this? Yes a HEALTHY Habs team can go to the SCF and probably win it. But it has to be a HEALTHY team, firing on all cylinders. And staying healthy is the key. We went into the Bruins series missing Markov, Patches & Gorges. We had Halpern, Pleks, Cammy, the Wiz, Eller and DD that were either playing seriously hurt or got hurt during the series.

The Canucks are missing Samuelson, Hamuis, Rome. The Sedins got lost in Stanley Park when they beat San Jose, Malhorta is a shadow of himself, Keseler is playing on half a groin and last night they lost Raymond.

Let's look at the Bruins: Savard and Horton the last three games. That's it.

Avoiding being an injury plagued team takes two things: luck and depth.

There's nothing we can do about the luck part except maybe have some burnt offerings to the gods.

For the depth part - we need to get another top 6 (or maybe top 9) winger. We need Pouliot to either improve or be replaced by someone better. We need Gomez well, never mind Gomez, same applies to him as it does to Pouliot. That's the best we can hope for from him. We need to tweak a couple of our bottom 6 with more grit and size.

The defence could round up into very good shape if we sign Markov, Gorges & the Wiz.

The goaltending situation is a godsend or it could be a disaster. Price goes down and we become the Flyers without Pronger.
Missing your #1 D (not saying Hamuis is) is the worst thing that can happen for most teams. Goalies can't be up to par if they don't have their best Ds in front of them. Complete #1 Ds, as I've said before, are the most important players in today's NHL.

Habs almost got through the Bruins and were missing Markov, but had Subban. If they had the two of them, they might have passed all the teams in the east, and like Neofury, I thought a Montreal vancouver matchup would favor the Habs, not because the Habs are better, but just because they seemed to have the Nuck's number this year.

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Old
06-14-2011, 10:38 AM
  #57
Ollie Williams
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If we assumed that having Max would allow us to pass the Bruins, a lot of situations would change.

The second round match-ups would be:

Washington vs Montreal

Philadelphia vs Tampa Bay

I do think we could have been able to beat Washington (since we've been able to in the past). This would put us against Philly or TB in the ECF.

Beyond that point it's anyone's guess. TB has the Quebec factor both in Coaching and players. Philadelphia has had our number for multiple seasons now.

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Old
06-14-2011, 10:42 AM
  #58
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When your offense is 22nd in the league and your #2 centre has 7 goals while logging almost 4 hours of power play time, you're just happy to be in the playoffs. This team will not do more than what it did this year without an infusion of goal scoring.

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06-14-2011, 10:59 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
If we assumed that having Max would allow us to pass the Bruins, a lot of situations would change.

The second round match-ups would be:

Washington vs Montreal

Philadelphia vs Tampa Bay

I do think we could have been able to beat Washington (since we've been able to in the past). This would put us against Philly or TB in the ECF.

Beyond that point it's anyone's guess. TB has the Quebec factor both in Coaching and players. Philadelphia has had our number for multiple seasons now.
But were running very low on gas. I think we might've had a chance.

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Old
06-14-2011, 11:13 AM
  #60
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If we beat the bruins, we can beat philly (least physical, more offense, more defense, goalie lot worse)

we can beat Tampa bay (least physical, more offense, least defense, goalie worse)

and beat the canucks.


We can, but a lot of «IF»

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Old
06-14-2011, 11:15 AM
  #61
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Nope. We do not have the forward depth to win the Cup at the moment. We are close but close is not good enough.

The Habs need to add two offensive weapons to the top-9 to have a legit chance next season. Going into the playoffs with Gio and Cammy as your only goalscorers will not cut it. Maybe Deharnais will fill one of these roles as a winger on Eller's line, which means we have to find someone who can play with Pleks and Cammy, preferably someone with size and speed to open the ice for our diminutive players:

Cammalleri-Plekanec-Laich
Pacioretty-Gomez-Gionta
Deharnais-Eller-Kostitsyn

EDIT: I think the Habs are trying model themselves after the 02/03 Devils, a low scoring team with incredible D and goaltending (Stevens, Rafalski, Niedermayer, Daneyko, White, and Brodeur). See (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000512003.html for the statistical breakdown of that team. It is the only model we can follow to win the Cup given our medicore forward group.


Last edited by bipolarhabfan: 06-14-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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Old
06-14-2011, 11:20 AM
  #62
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Even if we beat Boston doesn't mean we would have been in the finals instead of them, the matchups in round 2/3 wouldn't have been the same so no one knows. I'm happy considering all our injuries how close we came and our young players are only getting better and we actually have a few for a change and that the future is looking good in Montreal.

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Old
06-14-2011, 11:54 AM
  #63
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....and they're missing Savard....but THAT wasn't OUR fault. We're also missing Markov and Gorges....it's hard to say really. We'll never know. I say if we had a healthy lineup and they did as well, Habs in 7. I am extremely biased though.

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Old
06-14-2011, 11:59 AM
  #64
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Yes.

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Old
06-14-2011, 12:05 PM
  #65
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I think a healthy Max Pac could have made the difference in the Boston series but beyond that its impossible to predict.

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Old
06-14-2011, 12:09 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The Thrashers, Islanders, Hurricanes, Sabres, Rangers and Leafs all had as good or better offense than we did. You sure you want to use them as examples? We came in 23rd in the league in goals for. We came in 26th in the league in 5 on 5 scoring. That is not a cup calibre team, sorry.
As I've said elsewhere, who cares how much they score so long as its more than the other guy. Of the teams you mentioned, only Buffalo and NYR had a better 5 on 5 ratio. The Habs had much better special teams though.

Leafs, Islanders, Hurricanes and Thrashers lose because they are defensively inept, not because they lack scoring. The game isn't who scores the most is the best. The game is who scores more than the guys they are facing.

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06-14-2011, 12:56 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
As I've said elsewhere, who cares how much they score so long as its more than the other guy. Of the teams you mentioned, only Buffalo and NYR had a better 5 on 5 ratio. The Habs had much better special teams though.

Leafs, Islanders, Hurricanes and Thrashers lose because they are defensively inept, not because they lack scoring. The game isn't who scores the most is the best. The game is who scores more than the guys they are facing.
The "scoring more then the other guy" is exactly the problem. In the long run you can't do it enough to win 16 games. Show me a 22nd ranked offense that has won the cup?

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Old
06-14-2011, 04:51 PM
  #68
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Habs were beat up

Anyone remember how Montreal came out of the series? Eller needed surgery, Halpern was iffy, Subban skipped the WCs, lots of guys were banged up... Remember how Boston finished the series? No one banged up at all?

Keep in mind that Chara was sick in one game and did not play in another, both Boston losses.

Boston has done well because they injure their opponents and are less injured (Horton being an exception) in return. When series go to 7 games the cheap shots start paying off.

Martin's system really does not take playoff wear and tear into account.

Maybe with a healthy Markov...

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Old
06-14-2011, 05:15 PM
  #69
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We would have beaten Boston, but I couldn't see us beating Philly or Washington.

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06-14-2011, 05:24 PM
  #70
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by bipolarhabfan View Post
Nope. We do not have the forward depth to win the Cup at the moment. We are close but close is not good enough.

The Habs need to add two offensive weapons to the top-9 to have a legit chance next season. Going into the playoffs with Gio and Cammy as your only goalscorers will not cut it. Maybe Deharnais will fill one of these roles as a winger on Eller's line, which means we have to find someone who can play with Pleks and Cammy, preferably someone with size and speed to open the ice for our diminutive players:

Cammalleri-Plekanec-Laich
Pacioretty-Gomez-Gionta
Deharnais-Eller-Kostitsyn
With the forwards we have, we would really need to add an elite scorer to have any kind of legit chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolarhabfan View Post
EDIT: I think the Habs are trying model themselves after the 02/03 Devils, a low scoring team with incredible D and goaltending (Stevens, Rafalski, Niedermayer, Daneyko, White, and Brodeur). See (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000512003.html for the statistical breakdown of that team. It is the only model we can follow to win the Cup given our medicore forward group.
Thing about the Devils though is that they had multiple HOF guys on that roster and their D was frighteningly rough. We don't have the fear factor of a Scott Stevens and as good as Subban is, it's hard to match Scott Niedermayer who has won everywhere he's played and is a multi Norris winning first ballot HOFer.

If we keep our D together and everyone miraculously stays healthy then it's a great group offensively and will help overcome the puny offense up front. But defensively it doesn't have the smash and bang that the Devils did or the Bruins do now.

The way our D is built, we'd be better off with a strong group of forwards to capitalize on the chances the blueline generates. Unfortunately our forwards as a whole pretty much suck.
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
As I've said elsewhere, who cares how much they score so long as its more than the other guy. Of the teams you mentioned, only Buffalo and NYR had a better 5 on 5 ratio.
? What are you talking about? ALL of those teams had better 5 on 5 scoring than we did. Thrashers, Islanders, Hurricanes, Sabres, Rangers and Leafs had as good or better offense overall and better goals for 5 on 5.

Only the Devils, Sens, Oilers and Wild were worse at even strength this season. And I expect that the Devils and Oilers will be much better this year.
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The Habs had much better special teams though.
Special teams (and goaltending) are the only reason we made the playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Leafs, Islanders, Hurricanes and Thrashers lose because they are defensively inept, not because they lack scoring. The game isn't who scores the most is the best. The game is who scores more than the guys they are facing.
The point the other poster was making was that our forwards as a group were good enough to win a cup. Then he brought up those other clubs saying we were so much better than they were.

If we were that much better, they wouldn't be scoring more than we were. The Rangers, Sabres and Hurricanes are all competitive with us. They are also bubble teams good enough to make the playoffs and have better offense. All have good goaltending and can keep the puck out of the net. On any given year, they'll be slightly higher or lower than us in the standings. They are far more comparable to us than Pittsburgh or Vancouver.

As for the Isles, Leafs and Thrashers... what does it say about our cup chances when we get outscored by the likes of those clubs? And if the Leafs have the kind of goaltending that Reimer supplied last year, they'll probably make the playoffs this year too.

Bottom line, we aren't contenders with the roster we have right now. And nowhere is our weakness more glaring than up front.

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Old
06-14-2011, 07:33 PM
  #71
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Quit beating the dead horse. We lost by a goal and nothing else. Would the series been different with all, some, or one of our injured players in the line-up? Absolutely, it would've been but there is far too much uncertainty surrounding a hockey game, let alone a seven game series, to say the insertion of any player(s) into the line-up would've assured victory.

Consider the exact event that lead to us losing the series, the Bruins scoring the overtime goal. Is it fair to say that Pacioretty would've scored (at least) a goal in this series? Absolutely but who really knows, with certainty, when those goals would end up in the net? Maybe he does score the game seven overtime goal, maybe his only goal in the series comes in game 1 or, perhaps, he doesn't score at all.

All adding Pacioretty (or anybody) to the line-up would've done is change the probability of the outcome and there is no telling whether or not it would've been to our benefit (even though it likely would've been to our benefit).

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06-14-2011, 07:53 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by SirRobichon View Post
If we beat the bruins, we can beat philly (least physical, more offense, more defense, goalie lot worse)

we can beat Tampa bay (least physical, more offense, least defense, goalie worse)

and beat the canucks.


We can, but a lot of «IF»
Another poster who doesn't know what they are talking about. we would have played Wash. in rd 2. I though this fanbase was so "knowledgeable"

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Old
06-14-2011, 08:26 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
? What are you talking about? ALL of those teams had better 5 on 5 scoring than we did. Thrashers, Islanders, Hurricanes, Sabres, Rangers and Leafs had as good or better offense overall and better goals for 5 on 5.

Only the Devils, Sens, Oilers and Wild were worse at even strength this season. And I expect that the Devils and Oilers will be much better this year.

Special teams (and goaltending) are the only reason we made the playoffs.

The point the other poster was making was that our forwards as a group were good enough to win a cup. Then he brought up those other clubs saying we were so much better than they were.

If we were that much better, they wouldn't be scoring more than we were. The Rangers, Sabres and Hurricanes are all competitive with us. They are also bubble teams good enough to make the playoffs and have better offense. All have good goaltending and can keep the puck out of the net. On any given year, they'll be slightly higher or lower than us in the standings. They are far more comparable to us than Pittsburgh or Vancouver.

As for the Isles, Leafs and Thrashers... what does it say about our cup chances when we get outscored by the likes of those clubs? And if the Leafs have the kind of goaltending that Reimer supplied last year, they'll probably make the playoffs this year too.

Bottom line, we aren't contenders with the roster we have right now. And nowhere is our weakness more glaring than up front.
Scoring more means a grand load of nothing when your team defense bad and you give even more back. Those teams scored more than the Habs 5 on 5. Whop-de-do, the Habs gained all that back by allowing less goals then they did 5 on 5. It is not the number of goals you score that matter, its the amount relative to the guy your facing. You have a point about needing better 5 on 5 scoring but my point is that it doesn't matter if the Thrashers, Islanders, Hurricanes and Leafs score more than the Habs if they lose even more ground due to bad defense.

The Colorado scored more than Washington's offensive power house this year. One was 2nd in the east and had a 1.07 5 on 5 ratio they other was 2nd worst in the league with a 0.88 5 on 5 ration because they couldn't make up for all the goals they let in.

As I said, its how much you outscore the opponent that matters, not how much you yourself score.

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Old
06-14-2011, 10:11 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Hank Scorpio View Post
Quit beating the dead horse. We lost by a goal and nothing else. Would the series been different with all, some, or one of our injured players in the line-up? Absolutely, it would've been but there is far too much uncertainty surrounding a hockey game, let alone a seven game series, to say the insertion of any player(s) into the line-up would've assured victory.

Consider the exact event that lead to us losing the series, the Bruins scoring the overtime goal. Is it fair to say that Pacioretty would've scored (at least) a goal in this series? Absolutely but who really knows, with certainty, when those goals would end up in the net? Maybe he does score the game seven overtime goal, maybe his only goal in the series comes in game 1 or, perhaps, he doesn't score at all.

All adding Pacioretty (or anybody) to the line-up would've done is change the probability of the outcome and there is no telling whether or not it would've been to our benefit (even though it likely would've been to our benefit).
so, in other words, you agree that the odds are higher that Max would have helped this team.

.........

The point of this thread is basically to show that in this cap era, it takes much less to win a cup.

I agree with Lafleur Guys and sons on the idea that it's important to have 'franchise' guys in your core, that rebuilding is crucial to the future and indicative of past successes;however, I also believe it's important to reform our beliefs so they remain relevant and relative of the era we are in.

In the case of Boston, they are 1 win away ... and all they have is a HOF in Chara, a goalie whom until this year was a non-HOF candidate, and a supporting cast.

What this says to me is that building a contender in todays NHL takes less top end talent / top picks / franchise players than it did 5 or 10 years ago.

With just a few right pieces (Subban, Price), and depth (including the Max Pac's of the world)... a cup is a possibility.

I don't expect this trend to end either, I think we'll also see an 8th seeded like teams to finally pull it off in the near future.


Last edited by coolasprICE: 06-14-2011 at 10:24 PM.
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06-14-2011, 10:13 PM
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Hackett
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I like the way the D is shaping up. It looks like we will have markov, gorges, subban, gill, emelin, spacek. I would like some more depth, or another top 4 option.

The top 6 could use one more pure sniper, but it isnt bad. The bottom 6 is okay.

Their special teams was one of the best in the league and there's no reason to believe that this trend will not continue.

Goaltending is as good as it gets... need a steady backup if auld bolts.

Yeah, this team isnt too far off.

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