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Bertrand Raymond Article: Realistic or Typical Habs Bashing?

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Old
06-15-2011, 02:21 PM
  #26
gusfring
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
That's not what he's saying though. He's bashing the Habs for what the fans are saying. He's so stupid and old.
He's also correct about that. Just look at these boards, people are saying this team is a contender if only Markov is added to the team.

Hopefully, management is a little more civilized in seeing the teams deficiencies.


Last edited by gusfring: 06-15-2011 at 02:42 PM.
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Old
06-15-2011, 02:23 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
He's also correct about that. Just look at these boards, people are saying this team is a contender if on Markov is added to the team.

Hopefully, management is a little more civilized in seeing the teams deficiencies.
With a relatively healthy line-up, this team is a contender.

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06-15-2011, 02:24 PM
  #28
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We have no way to know. I guess what Raymond is saying is don't be fooled, don't be too content because we got the Bruins to a 7th game and they are in the finals. And he's right. Since Gauthier took over the new guys have a tendency to just be happy with how things are. How many times do we see Gauthier say "he's happy with his team". A lot.

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06-15-2011, 02:28 PM
  #29
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seriously no need for an article like that. OH right, I forgot, RDS needs to fill it's site with blogs nobody cares about.

GO HABS GO!

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06-15-2011, 02:30 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
We have no way to know. I guess what Raymond is saying is don't be fooled, don't be too content because we got the Bruins to a 7th game and they are in the finals. And he's right. Since Gauthier took over the new guys have a tendency to just be happy with how things are. How many times do we see Gauthier say "he's happy with his team". A lot.
he should be

a LOT of great moves by PG, i'm impressed. Just wait and see how little tweaks are going to make us a bigtime threat. And all the moves that came before will have been a big part of that.

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06-15-2011, 02:33 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
With a relatively healthy line-up, this team is a contender.
Not if nittany says we aren't. He knows.

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06-15-2011, 02:35 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
he should be

a LOT of great moves by PG, i'm impressed. Just wait and see how little tweaks are going to make us a bigtime threat. And all the moves that came before will have been a big part of that.
Failed to make his team bigger time and time again. Hired guys like Sopel and Mara when we needed guys way more physical.

Gauthier is a ghost. He's got no fire, no ambitions, no balls.

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06-15-2011, 02:41 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Not if nittany says we aren't. He knows.
The facts prove it. Sorry if it's hard to hear.

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06-15-2011, 02:49 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
The facts prove it. Sorry if it's hard to hear.
Which facts, lol?

I can't wait to read your facts.

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Old
06-15-2011, 02:50 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Asamu View Post
Personally, we will have a better team than last year:

-If our injured D players come back healthy 100% with the addition of Yemelin, we will be younger and faster.

-Our powerplay will be more efficient just the by the fact that Markov will be back.

-I expect some players to bloom: Eller, Pacioretty, Desharnais and Subban already started...maybe a come back from Pouliot would be appreciated.

-We have an all-stars goalie who doesn't cost a lot for now.
Here is why I disagree with you:

- as much as we get back players from injury, we will get new injuries. Every team has them. Think of it this way, Boston is without their #1 center and their power play pivot, Savard. Still, they have the depth and health to be this far in the playoffs.

- the Habs PP was not great without a shooter, even with Markov, maybe... just maybe Subban can be that guy. Time will tell if Markov is back, and if the PP will work with Subban as shooter.

- Desharnais did nothing in the playoffs. Don't be fooled. Eller and Pacioretty need to do it for a full year including playoffs before the Habs can count on them 100%. The only one of your list that really proved anything was Subban.

- you are right, Price is cheap, for now. But the Habs still need a back up that can win a game AND not let the air out of Price's tires.

The Habs are not a bad team, but they are not a division leader, and certainly not a playoff warrior.

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06-15-2011, 03:01 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
The facts prove it. Sorry if it's hard to hear.
I'm sure they do in your world. Nothing you say is hard to hear since I usually just laugh at your posts for their usual cheerfulness.

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Old
06-15-2011, 03:02 PM
  #37
Joe Cole
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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
With a relatively healthy line-up, this team is a contender.
Exactly, and that happens in fairy tales. Every team gets banged up. Make no mistake, part of being a winner is performing at the highest level when it counts.

There are two ways that players lose effectiveness due to physicality:

1- they get worn down by playing above their heads physically over a long period of time.
2- bad luck. You get hit from behind or something else and you are knocked out for a long period of time.

The Canucks are a great example of both points. They are worn down from the grind of playing this far into the playoffs (Sedins, Kesler, Bieksa), with no scoring depth picking up the slack. And, they have real injuires, Hamius, Raymond, Malhotra (still not 100%), and the loss of Rome.

You cannot pretend that you are going to have a "fresh as a daisy" line up going in, and deep into the playoffs. What you have to do is minimize your exposure by having big bodies and depth.

My 2 cents.

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06-15-2011, 03:11 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Failed to make his team bigger time and time again. Hired guys like Sopel and Mara when we needed guys way more physical.

Gauthier is a ghost. He's got no fire, no ambitions, no balls.
eyo... c'mon now... no need to think of us Ghosts that way I wouldnt say I'm anything like Gauthier Wish I had his paycheque though lol

I mean, in the Forum, WE had a tonne of that (Us ghosts I mean.. Howie, Douggie, Joe et al) lol

On a more serious note...

IMO Habs brass gets away with MURDER because of their low key approach to talking to the media... Seriously it extended the life of our brass by at least 3 years so far (and counting)...

The ONLY time brass was accountable, was in '08 when Gainey said he would (and failed to) get a bigger center. What he did was make a retarded trade, and signed multiples of the same style players that we already have/had.

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Old
06-15-2011, 03:17 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
Which facts, lol?

I can't wait to read your facts.
When Markov was healthy was our team a top notch team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
Exactly, and that happens in fairy tales. Every team gets banged up. Make no mistake, part of being a winner is performing at the highest level when it counts.

There are two ways that players lose effectiveness due to physicality:

1- they get worn down by playing above their heads physically over a long period of time.
2- bad luck. You get hit from behind or something else and you are knocked out for a long period of time.

The Canucks are a great example of both points. They are worn down from the grind of playing this far into the playoffs (Sedins, Kesler, Bieksa), with no scoring depth picking up the slack. And, they have real injuires, Hamius, Raymond, Malhotra (still not 100%), and the loss of Rome.

You cannot pretend that you are going to have a "fresh as a daisy" line up going in, and deep into the playoffs. What you have to do is minimize your exposure by having big bodies and depth.

My 2 cents.
Agreed. Thinking Markov, Gorges, Eller and co are going be healthy all year after MAJOR injuries is simply foolish. It takes time to truely be back to 100% from reconstructive surgeries.

Also, the lack of size on this team leaves us susceptible to further injuries and guys have no problem taking liberties with our smaller forwards.

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Old
06-15-2011, 03:22 PM
  #40
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don't agree with all of his points, but his main point, that we're dreaming if we think this franchise is anything more than a borderline playoff team, is pretty accurate.

fact is that we got eliminated in the first round, after another average regular season that saw us enter the playoffs as a road team yet again.

i have no particular love for Raymond, but it's amazing how quickly some people are to criticize him for having an opinion that really isn't that outlandish.

for an organization that is profiting as much as the habs are on the backs of their fan base, i think it's fair to say that they've benefited from a generally warm reception despite 1 good playoff run in almost 20 seasons...

even for a league with parity, that is a pretty piss poor track record for a franchise that so shamelessly touts it's "glorious" legacy all the while putting a very average product on the ice.


people may disagree, but imo PG's emotionless reaction during the playoffs points to an overall lack of organizational focus on winning. the whole "poker face" excuse is b.s, hockey is both sport and business, and apparently our organization puts more emphasis/pride on the business approach than it does on the sport approach... otherwise we'd see the team operated like the Wings, or the Lakers, or any other sports franchise where the ownership makes it crystal clear that the mandate, first and foremost, is to JUST WIN BABY.

for the habs fan base, as Raymond was pointing out, apparently it's gotten to the point where "JUST WIN" is no longer the goal b/c "Just play close to the team that makes the final" is a good enough moral victory for us.


While losing in the first round can't be considered a big disapointment given the roster we had going into the season (+ the injuries we suffered, + the inability to aggressively improve the roster in season), but that is precisely the problem. We won the conference 3 seasons ago, only to see the roster gutted and replaced with another average group...
that's good enough if the goal is to offer the fans just enough hope to keep them paying through the nose, but not nearly good enough if winning is the only option.

a franchise committed to winning would've gone after Yzerman, would've kept Boucher (even if it meant waiving good bye to the incumbent who, despite a great regular season track record, has never won anything), and would have no qualms burying a wasted roster/cap space spot like Gomez or finding a way to move a cap dud like Spacek.

winning teams/organizations finds ways/reasons to succeed, the rest search for excuses. under BG and now PG, excuses have been the name of the game.

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Old
06-15-2011, 03:24 PM
  #41
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I dont agree too often with Raymond but I do agree when he says we didnt/still dont have the guns and physicality to get the cup.
When you go in a war , you gotta be able to, at the very least make the opposition respect you, and not let them take too many liberties as we ve seen too often this year.
Injuries will happen, it s almost a given , every year, to every teams, we just dont know who it s gonna be. So it s the same for every team, sometimes u get lucky sometimes u dont but it s part of the game.
A good example of this in this final serie is for example, after the first 2 games, Boston had to win so they just came and started crushing Vancouver, hitting everything, it made the Nucks versy shaky and they easily won both games, then Vancouver had to reverse that back home and what do they do,they come out flying and crushing the Bruins Ds, hits were like 25 -10 at some point in that game for them, same thing again for game 6, this time vancouver started hitting early, as we saw with that Edler hit, but then the Bruins in the same game came back stronger and started to hit more, crushing Raymond and breaking his neck vertabrae (another broken one!) and kept on hitting, scored a goal, and then a few more with the momentum and taking advantage of the fact that Vancouver was playing shaky again, and that s it game over, all beacuse of the physicality, not skills.
Guess what both teams are gonna do tonight again...but now Bostion has the advantage since they injured so many Vacouver players.
But that s another story tho, it s obvious to me that the referees are favouring the bruins...Maybe in part because Campbell is playing, but mayble also because thats what the NHL wants to sell, tough and strong hockey plays, that s spectacular, and if you look at their headshot politics, it actually makes a lot of sense, to me anyways.
The fact that the refs are so biased tho is a different story again and makes this league a joke, I mean last game, Edler hits someone get a penalty for running that guy into the band, then I dont know , Ference or maybe Boychuk runs Edler into the band, break his neck , making him not able to play for at least the next 4 months, and no penalty??It s been disgusting like that all season long...

Anyways all this to say that the physical part of the game was huge in this series, I know we were a goal away from winning that Boston serie, but I still dont believe that we would ve got to the finals, too small makes and not enough physical, always a t the wrong end of the hits made the team too injured and out of gas by the time they have to play more than 100 games in the season.....
That also prevents your wingers from gaining the zone effectively, taking the body on your opponents in the corners, and cycling the puck effectively, not letting the cammalleris and giontas for example enough time and space to be effective.
Or, if your Ds are not physical enough, you re just tiring your ds and forwards by running after the puck and obviously your puck possession game but that s a bit obvious...
Maybe that had something to do with the fact that we didnt score a goal at ES in the last 2 games and were in the bottom 10 of the league during the regular season.
Anyways, I dont agree often with Raymond or with everything he said but he s not wrong in the sense that we need to be more physical.

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06-15-2011, 03:34 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
This is the same guy that said Montreal had no chance to beat Boston because of the Chara-Pacioretty incident before the series started and when we went up 2-0 hopped on the bandwagon praising Price and everyone.
I still think his claim that Bergeron and Wisniewski are largely equivalent players but with different reputations takes the cake.

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06-15-2011, 03:36 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
When Markov was healthy was our team a top notch team?
When Markov was healthy it was a completly different line-up.

Come on, you know you have nothing, just quit trying.

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06-15-2011, 03:56 PM
  #44
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When Markov was healthy it was a completly different line-up.

Come on, you know you have nothing, just quit trying.
Right but it still wasn't a contender.

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06-15-2011, 04:01 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Right but it still wasn't a contender.
Whatever, you proved my point have a good day.

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06-15-2011, 04:11 PM
  #46
gusfring
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Whatever, you proved my point have a good day.
No I didn't. The facts are this team never won more than one round with Markov in it's lineup.

He's a great player but this team needs much more than him to be a contender.

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06-15-2011, 04:13 PM
  #47
Andy
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
No I didn't. The facts are this team never won more than one round with Markov in it's lineup.

He's a great player but this team needs much more than him to be a contender.
That's not proof.

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06-15-2011, 04:13 PM
  #48
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Right but it still wasn't a contender.

Not in the sense of last year Chicago for example... but seeing how weak the East is compared to the West, thinking the Habs could make it to the SCF with this line-up isnt too far fetched...

if we had to face the SJ, Van, Det all year long that would be a different story... but we're not in their conference so...

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06-15-2011, 04:14 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
No I didn't. The facts are this team never won more than one round with Markov in it's lineup.

He's a great player but this team needs much more than him to be a contender.
Just so you know, I'm not replying cuz you're too stuborn to understand it. I'll say it one last time : The last time Markov was healthy it was with a COMPLETLY different line-up.

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06-15-2011, 04:14 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Failed to make his team bigger time and time again. Hired guys like Sopel and Mara when we needed guys way more physical.

Gauthier is a ghost. He's got no fire, no ambitions, no balls.
Mara was as physical as a D man could be...

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