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What do we have to do to contend for the cup next season?

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Old
06-16-2011, 11:31 AM
  #51
Ozymandias
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*cough*...and Gomez.

Gauthier was the pro scout when we got Gomez... Gauthier wasn't pro scout when we got Eller, Wiz and Moore, he was GM.

Fail

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Originally Posted by didouche View Post
Wiz gone.
Moore gone and he wanted to play with us.
They brought us: Moen
Laraque
Pyatt
Pouliot
GOMEZ

The bad outweighs the good.

PG was pro scout when we got those players. Gauthier was GM when we got Eller, Wiz and Moore. It's a different pro scout. At least get your facts straight.

Also, could you please lend me your crystal ball, because as of now, Wiz is still a member of the Habs.

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06-16-2011, 11:38 AM
  #52
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Avoid injuries.

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Old
06-16-2011, 11:40 AM
  #53
Jack Bourdain
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I have 3 names for you:

1. Price
2. Markov
3. Cammalleri

They will lead us to the cup, if not this year, than the next. In 2 years time, if healthy, we have the core to get it done.

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06-16-2011, 11:53 AM
  #54
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The beat us without scoring a 5 on 5 goal. That means the Bruins are better 5 on 5. I think they had 5 pp goals through 18 games. That's terrible and not a team that wins, unless you can kill penalties and score 5 on 5. It's not something you can build around, but another skilled player playing 3rd line minutes could help us even more at that.
The big problem is that hockey is a game of small sample sizes, and it's played with a bouncy object over a rapidly degrading, slippery surface. So there can easily be a disconnect between how well you play and how much you score, especially on a small set of games such as a playoff series.

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06-16-2011, 11:55 AM
  #55
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To be honest, a whole lot. Last summer, while Boston's GM was actually working hard enough to improve his team, all our GM did was finding excuses and saying how we didn't have enough cap space to actually improve our team going forward. And what do we know, one year later, most people here, from what I read in the last few weeks, are happy and want more of the same, saying Darche is a great signing, Gill is a great signing, and Kostitsyn is a great signing.

First of all, forget the Cup as long as we'll play that kind of hockey in the playoffs. We'll win against some teams playing that defense-only, give the puck back to the opponents style, but it'll always go to the limit and we won't have the energy to play 4 rounds of playoffs hockey like this. Chasing the puck is just too damn more exhausting than keeping it.

Secondly, as long as our depth forwards won't be capable of bringing something more concrete to this team, we'll be stuck where we are. Last summer some guys like Torres were available. We instead decided to keep a spot for guys like Darche and Boyd even before the start of July. Now I admire a guy like Darche, and it's a wonderful perserverance story right there, but he won't contribute when he's not producing, and knowing his limits, this sure happens a lot of time. Whereas guys like Campbell, Kelly, Paille and McQuaid for Boston all played rough and were capable of killing penalties. What does Darche do exactly for us? He's playing a bit on the power play, but let's not fool ourselves. It's an anomaly. He should NOT be playing there. We should have much better options out there, even when injuries happen. You don't want Darche to be the first guy brought up in the top-6, not even when a Pacioretty or a Cammalleri goes down. We should have better options out there. Guys like Torres, or even Kostitsyn should we sign a guys like Laich this summer (hopefully). As for Kostitsyn, I consider him to be a "bonus" guy going forward. We MUST replace him in our top-6, because we just can't rely on this guy on a nightly basis. He produces you'll say? Well when he's not producing he's a liability, and affects his linemates with his poor decisions (no matter if it's because of nonchalence or lack of confidence). As for Gill, well I have nothing against the guy, but we need to start looking for big guys who are not inapt with the puck on their stick. Our 6 d-men should handle themselves with the puck.

And finally, not the least, we have to build a d-core compatible with the skills of our forwards. Our top forwards are quick and skilled with the puck. Our d-men should all be capable of moving the puck and playing smart hockey. As for the bottom-6 forwards, I wish Gauthier would realize the importance of surrounding our good forwards with some guys capable of tiring the opposing defensemen.

I don't care about Martin's system neither, I just wish we'd keep the puck on our stick when we get it. Too often, we give it right back to the other team without making them work to retrieve it. Chasing the puck is exhausting as hell, and most of the time, we just can't protect this puck, partially because some of our forwards don't know how to do it... Especially on our bottom-6 and on our d-core. Guys like Darche don't belong there. And guys like Gill struggle too damn much with the puck, so they turn it over. We already have a guy like Gorges on our team and it's alright as every team needs this kind of #4/#5, defensively responsible player. But having Gill is something we just didn't need.

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Old
06-16-2011, 11:58 AM
  #56
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- 2 or 3 of Maxpac, Eller, DD, Kost, Pouliot having excellent seasons
- Markov & Gorges back and healthy
- Subban/Price continuing their ascent to stardom
- at least 2 players brought in who can play a physical/tough game & stand up to teams like the Bruins/Flyers
- 2 of Cammalleri/Gomez/Gionta having career best (or close) seasons.
- stay relatively injury free


if all of those things happen, we should have a good shot at a top 4 finish and a legitimate chance to make a deep playoff run.

remains to be seen how much team management does to support these things happening. While we have some good pieces in place, we need to add a few pieces to the puzzle in order to support the skill/talent that we have.... white and moen aren't nearly enough.

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06-16-2011, 12:01 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
To be honest, a whole lot. Last summer, while Boston's GM was actually working hard enough to improve his team, all our GM did was finding excuses and saying how we didn't have enough cap space to actually improve our team going forward.
My thoughts exactly.

This is why I have no time for the people that say we can't afford Wisniewski. Screw it. We have the cap space, he is a young, gritty player oozing of confidence and swagger. Exactly what we need.

Instead, we are going to let him walk for nothing, all because our GM doesn't have the balls to make a signing.

I hope he proves me wrong, but our team is looking like it is going to be the same as last year.

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:02 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
I have 3 names for you:

1. Price
2. Markov
3. Cammalleri

They will lead us to the cup, if not this year, than the next. In 2 years time, if healthy, we have the core to get it done.
And you think Markov will stay healthy. People brought the Wiz as an example for a guys recovering perfectly from major knee injuries. Fact is, Wiz was under 25 when he suffered those injuries. Markov is what? 32? 33? And next season, Hamrlik won't be there to be our Plan B in case Markov gets injured. And we don't know just yet at which extent guys like Diaz and Emelin will step up.

As for these three guys, when healthy, I concur. They'll be key in any Cup run for pretty much any team in the league. That being said, I feel like we need much more than that behind those 3 guys to achieve real success. Including better execution and better intelligence. Because do not kid yourself with Gauthier saying how clever our team is. We don't have a clever team. We do not. We might skate fast in most cases, we still are too slow too often to make a decision with a puck on our stick. Especially on the back end.

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:04 PM
  #59
Jack Bourdain
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Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
And you think Markov will stay healthy. People brought the Wiz as an example for a guys recovering perfectly from major knee injuries. Fact is, Wiz was under 25 when he suffered those injuries. Markov is what? 32? 33? And next season, Hamrlik won't be there to be our Plan B in case Markov gets injured. And we don't know just yet at which extent guys like Diaz and Emelin will step up.

As for these three guys, when healthy, I concur. They'll be key in any Cup run for pretty much any team in the league. That being said, I feel like we need much more than that behind those 3 guys to achieve real success. Including better execution and better intelligence. Because do not kid yourself with Gauthier saying how clever our team is. We don't have a clever team. We do not. We might skate fast in most cases, we still are too slow too often to make a decision with a puck on our stick. Especially on the back end.
I don't have a crystall ball so I won't bother predicting if my favorite Hab will get injured again or not.

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Plekamaniac View Post
My thoughts exactly.

This is why I have no time for the people that say we can't afford Wisniewski. Screw it. We have the cap space, he is a young, gritty player oozing of confidence and swagger. Exactly what we need.

Instead, we are going to let him walk for nothing, all because our GM doesn't have the balls to make a signing.

I hope he proves me wrong, but our team is looking like it is going to be the same as last year.
I don't like Gauthier. Never did, never will. He did make good moves so far, but did absolutely nothing in one year and a half to actually make an impact on our team on the short, middle AND long term. Gainey initiated a process. Gauthier needs to complete it, not sitting on his hands and admiring Gainey's work as if it was complete and he didn't need to do anything but filling holes and breaches. He needs to keep improving this team and perfecting what our style of hockey should all be about.

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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
I don't have a crystall ball so I won't bother predicting if my favorite Hab will get injured again or not.
I'm not asking you to have a crystal ball. Just that if this happens again, I'll say like Whitesnake did in one of his posts (that I read a couple of weeks ago). I don't want to hear anyone finding excuses and blaming Markov's injuries. If you sign Markov, you also choose to sign the possibility that he might not be as good as he once was, and that he might have become injury-prone. It's all going to be on the GM this time.

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:07 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
To be honest, a whole lot. Last summer, while Boston's GM was actually working hard enough to improve his team, all our GM did was finding excuses and saying how we didn't have enough cap space to actually improve our team going forward. And what do we know, one year later, most people here, from what I read in the last few weeks, are happy and want more of the same, saying Darche is a great signing, Gill is a great signing, and Kostitsyn is a great signing.

First of all, forget the Cup as long as we'll play that kind of hockey in the playoffs. We'll win against some teams playing that defense-only, give the puck back to the opponents style, but it'll always go to the limit and we won't have the energy to play 4 rounds of playoffs hockey like this. Chasing the puck is just too damn more exhausting than keeping it.

Secondly, as long as our depth forwards won't be capable of bringing something more concrete to this team, we'll be stuck where we are. Last summer some guys like Torres were available. We instead decided to keep a spot for guys like Darche and Boyd even before the start of July. Now I admire a guy like Darche, and it's a wonderful perserverance story right there, but he won't contribute when he's not producing, and knowing his limits, this sure happens a lot of time. Whereas guys like Campbell, Kelly, Paille and McQuaid for Boston all played rough and were capable of killing penalties. What does Darche do exactly for us? He's playing a bit on the power play, but let's not fool ourselves. It's an anomaly. He should NOT be playing there. We should have much better options out there, even when injuries happen. You don't want Darche to be the first guy brought up in the top-6, not even when a Pacioretty or a Cammalleri goes down. We should have better options out there. Guys like Torres, or even Kostitsyn should we sign a guys like Laich this summer (hopefully). As for Kostitsyn, I consider him to be a "bonus" guy going forward. We MUST replace him in our top-6, because we just can't rely on this guy on a nightly basis. He produces you'll say? Well when he's not producing he's a liability, and affects his linemates with his poor decisions (no matter if it's because of nonchalence or lack of confidence). As for Gill, well I have nothing against the guy, but we need to start looking for big guys who are not inapt with the puck on their stick. Our 6 d-men should handle themselves with the puck.

And finally, not the least, we have to build a d-core compatible with the skills of our forwards. Our top forwards are quick and skilled with the puck. Our d-men should all be capable of moving the puck and playing smart hockey. As for the bottom-6 forwards, I wish Gauthier would realize the importance of surrounding our good forwards with some guys capable of tiring the opposing defensemen.

I don't care about Martin's system neither, I just wish we'd keep the puck on our stick when we get it. Too often, we give it right back to the other team without making them work to retrieve it. Chasing the puck is exhausting as hell, and most of the time, we just can't protect this puck, partially because some of our forwards don't know how to do it... Especially on our bottom-6 and on our d-core. Guys like Darche don't belong there. And guys like Gill struggle too damn much with the puck, so they turn it over. We already have a guy like Gorges on our team and it's alright as every team needs this kind of #4/#5, defensively responsible player. But having Gill is something we just didn't need.
Your view of things is pretty much at the pessimistic extreme.

Martin's system just won Boston the cup, so it can't be that bad.

Part of keeping the puck more and chasing it less is having a mobile group on defense, adding Subban, Weber Yemelin and a healthy Markov would be a massive step forward. Boston won the cup against a more puck possession team in Vancouver, so puck posession in itself is not an end all and be all.

We definitely need a couple more guys that play with an edge to compliment guys like AK, Eller, Pacioretty, Moen, White etc

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:15 PM
  #62
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Your view of things is pretty much at the pessimistic extreme.

Martin's system just won Boston the cup, so it can't be that bad.

Part of keeping the puck more and chasing it less is having a mobile group on defense, adding Subban, Weber Yemelin and a healthy Markov would be a massive step forward. Boston won the cup against a more puck possession team in Vancouver, so puck posession in itself is not an end all and be all.

We definitely need a couple more guys that play with an edge to compliment guys like AK, Eller, Pacioretty, Moen, White etc
No Jacques team has never played a brand of physical hockey that the Bruins do. Never. Similar defensive system, maybe, but as far as the physical side, it's not the same.

Jacques would not have a 4th line of Paille-Campbell-Thornton.

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06-16-2011, 12:18 PM
  #63
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I hope he proves me wrong, but our team is looking like it is going to be the same as last year.
THIS IS MY FEAR! I hope he proves us wrong (July 1st hasn't passed yet), but without any significant forward signing, we won't go up one step. With Wiz, Gorges and Markov signed and healthy, we'd have an amazing defensive unit. It looks devastating. Defensively wise, man would our team look good!

Markov - Subban
Gill - Gorges
Wisniewski - Emelin (Spacek - Diaz - Weber)

Price - ? (Auld)

Looks awesome... but still need some tough firepower up front!

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:20 PM
  #64
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We need to get bigger, meaner and tougher. All year people were saying no goons they don't play in the playoffs you can't win with them. Well guess what bruins had a good playing in the stanley cup finals, thornton. They had a big mean team, not just big guys who don't use their size.

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06-16-2011, 12:24 PM
  #65
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We need to get bigger, meaner and tougher. All year people were saying no goons they don't play in the playoffs you can't win with them. Well guess what bruins had a good playing in the stanley cup finals, thornton. They had a big mean team, not just big guys who don't use their size.
Most teams don't get away with it. For some reason the Bruins are the exception.

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:24 PM
  #66
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No Jacques team has never played a brand of physical hockey that the Bruins do. Never. Similar defensive system, maybe, but as far as the physical side, it's not the same.

Jacques would not have a 4th line of Paille-Campbell-Thornton.
Playing physical hockey is about the type of players you have moreso than the style of coaching. In terms of the style of play the teams use it's almost exactly the same, score 1st and counter attack.

Why would he not have a 4th line of Paille Thornton and Campbell? He used White Moen and Pyatt together at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Breadman View Post
We need to get bigger, meaner and tougher. All year people were saying no goons they don't play in the playoffs you can't win with them. Well guess what bruins had a good playing in the stanley cup finals, thornton. They had a big mean team, not just big guys who don't use their size.
They had about the same size team as the Habs. Vancouver was bigger and more skilled but they played soft for the most part. Torres was nowhere to be seen, Bieksa and Kesler were the only guys that played with an edge. Their defense is big but played soft and slow.

The biggest difference physically between Montreal and Boston is their big guys(Lucic Thornton Chara) play meaner than ours. Horton is as soft as butter, but plays cocky after the whistle compared to his powder puff days in Florida. In terms of using their size Gill isn't a huge hitter, but he uses his size and strength to neutralize guys like Lucic Thornton Ovechkin Malkin etc so saying he "doesn't use his size" is false. I'd like to see him be a bit chippier though like Chara is with his stick.

We could definitely use a Hordichuk or Rupp to be our Thornton. Plus maybe an O'brien or Vandermeer on defense to help out Yemelin in the physical game.

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:30 PM
  #67
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Gauthier was the pro scout when we got Gomez... Gauthier wasn't pro scout when we got Eller, Wiz and Moore, he was GM.

Fail
Gauthier is still very much involved in pro scouting, and that's actually one thing I like about him. He's not the kind of GM who relies solely on scouting reports, he's still taking games in. So he has to be credited for recent successful pro hires, but also blamed for the Gomez one.

Sorry, no Internets for your attempt sir.

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:33 PM
  #68
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Your view of things is pretty much at the pessimistic extreme.

Martin's system just won Boston the cup, so it can't be that bad.

Part of keeping the puck more and chasing it less is having a mobile group on defense, adding Subban, Weber Yemelin and a healthy Markov would be a massive step forward. Boston won the cup against a more puck possession team in Vancouver, so puck posession in itself is not an end all and be all.

We definitely need a couple more guys that play with an edge to compliment guys like AK, Eller, Pacioretty, Moen, White etc
Pessimistic? No. Not at all. Just realistic.

Boston played good defensively, but were much better than us at keeping the puck on their stick, and it all has to do with their d-men playing better with the puck, AND their depth forwards being both more talented and physical than ours. I mean, come on man. We have guys like Pyatt and Darche playing on our bottom-6. We also have a semi-rookie on our top-6 (Pacioretty), along with an enigma (Kostitsyn). I don't even count Pouliot as part of our team, I can't stand him anymore. We need more than this. We're not even close to being contenders right now. Not even close.

And it goes without saying how even if we re-sign Markov, we might not even get him back in the lineup before a quarter of next season is done and over with. Plus, we need Price to be as good as he was this year, a feat even Martin Brodeur in his prime years wasn't capable of repeating several consecutive years in a row. Price had a great year, it doesn't mean he's in for just as good of a year next season.

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06-16-2011, 12:39 PM
  #69
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-Get a top 6 forward
-get some muscle on the 3rd and 4th line
-sign markove to a one year deal
-sign gorges
-dump hammer and sign wiz
-get a bid shutdown Dman

And last DRATF TYLER BIGS/JENNER BOONE

Beat the bruins at their own game

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06-16-2011, 12:42 PM
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I don't know how delusional you have to be to think that the Habs are going to play Spacek as a seventh defenseman...

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06-16-2011, 12:45 PM
  #71
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Martin's system just won Boston the cup, so it can't be that bad.
Wrong!!!

While Boston relies on a defensive system as does Montreal the difference is that Julien tweeked it depending on the oponent and the game situation.

JM is either incapable of or unwilling to make in game adjustments.

Just as players must adjust during a game so must coaches. No system alone ever won or will win a Cup.

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06-16-2011, 12:46 PM
  #72
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Pessimistic? No. Not at all. Just realistic.

Boston played good defensively, but were much better than us at keeping the puck on their stick, and it all has to do with their d-men playing better with the puck, AND their depth forwards being both more talented and physical than ours. I mean, come on man. We have guys like Pyatt and Darche playing on our bottom-6. We also have a semi-rookie on our top-6 (Pacioretty), along with an enigma (Kostitsyn). I don't even count Pouliot as part of our team, I can't stand him anymore. We need more than this. We're not even close to being contenders right now. Not even close.

And it goes without saying how even if we re-sign Markov, we might not even get him back in the lineup before a quarter of next season is done and over with. Plus, we need Price to be as good as he was this year, a feat even Martin Brodeur in his prime years wasn't capable of repeating several consecutive years in a row. Price had a great year, it doesn't mean he's in for just as good of a year next season.
Boston doesn't "keep it on their stick" more, they play a lot more dump and chase, obviously by dumping you don't keep the puck. As soon as they take a lead they get it over center and dump it in for the most part.

For a team that's not even close to contending we nearly took out the eventual champs in round one and got to the final 4 last year, the team can't be as flawed as you seem to think. Boston has flaws also, our defense should be a lot more skilled and mobile than theirs, our PP should still be light years ahead.

Brodeur had 8-10 very good years back to back in his prime, not sure what hockey you were watching. If we can upgrade the defense a bit and have it more healthy, Price can probably match his stats while having a lesser year. He played most of the 1st half with Subban struggling, Markov out and Gorges playing hurt then out of the lineup. Next year the defense has the potential to be A LOT better, helping score more goals and keep more out.

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06-16-2011, 12:46 PM
  #73
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I don't know how delusional you have to be to think that the Habs are going to play Spacek as a seventh defenseman...
This.

Spacek's 3.833 M isn't going into a 7th D spot. Also, AK was signed to a 1 year deal at the same salary. This, I believe, is for him to prove he's a top 6 forward. In other words, the top 6 is already made. PG would therefore go after a top 6 forward only if AK doesn't play to expectations.

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06-16-2011, 12:48 PM
  #74
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Wrong!!!

While Boston relies on a defensive system as does Montreal the difference is that Julien tweeked it depending on the oponent and the game situation.

JM is either incapable off or unwilling to make in game adjustments.

Just as players must adjust during a game so must coaches. No system alone ever won or will win a Cup.
How did Julien tweak it and when did Martin not?

Sounds more like a Martin hatefest than anything based on reality.

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06-16-2011, 12:50 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
And you think Markov will stay healthy. People brought the Wiz as an example for a guys recovering perfectly from major knee injuries. Fact is, Wiz was under 25 when he suffered those injuries. Markov is what? 32? 33? And next season, Hamrlik won't be there to be our Plan B in case Markov gets injured. And we don't know just yet at which extent guys like Diaz and Emelin will step up.
Man, if we don't re-sign Wiz it just won't make any sense to me at all. Young guy, good on offense... huge mistake if they don't re-up with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
I'm not asking you to have a crystal ball. Just that if this happens again, I'll say like Whitesnake did in one of his posts (that I read a couple of weeks ago). I don't want to hear anyone finding excuses and blaming Markov's injuries. If you sign Markov, you also choose to sign the possibility that he might not be as good as he once was, and that he might have become injury-prone. It's all going to be on the GM this time.
Markov has become a built in excuse for the homers on this site. If we don't win it's because we don't have Markov. The guy has barely played for us over the past two seasons. Anything we get from him is a bonus. It's a joke how some folks keep trying to bring him back into the conversation. It's the same with Marc Savard in Boston... if he comes back and plays well, great. But they shouldn't count on it.

I'm far more concerned with us keeping Wiz than Markov because he's got more years left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Your view of things is pretty much at the pessimistic extreme.

Martin's system just won Boston the cup, so it can't be that bad.
Apples and oranges.

First of all, Tim Thomas just came off the best season of all time for any goalie. I don't think you can count on this from any netminder.

Secondly, the Bruins are a much bigger, physical team than we are. It is a night and day difference in how we stack up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Part of keeping the puck more and chasing it less is having a mobile group on defense, adding Subban, Weber Yemelin and a healthy Markov would be a massive step forward. Boston won the cup against a more puck possession team in Vancouver, so puck posession in itself is not an end all and be all.

We definitely need a couple more guys that play with an edge to compliment guys like AK, Eller, Pacioretty, Moen, White etc
Our defense should we keep Wiz and should Markov miraculously stay healthy and return to form would be excellent offensively.

Defensively though, they aren't a stellar group. Not bad but not physical and nobody particularly stands out as being awesome in their own end. I think we could drive opposing defenses crazy with our blueline but unfortunately, our forwards aren't the great up front.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
Pessimistic? No. Not at all. Just realistic.

Boston played good defensively, but were much better than us at keeping the puck on their stick, and it all has to do with their d-men playing better with the puck, AND their depth forwards being both more talented and physical than ours. I mean, come on man. We have guys like Pyatt and Darche playing on our bottom-6. We also have a semi-rookie on our top-6 (Pacioretty), along with an enigma (Kostitsyn). I don't even count Pouliot as part of our team, I can't stand him anymore. We need more than this. We're not even close to being contenders right now. Not even close.

And it goes without saying how even if we re-sign Markov, we might not even get him back in the lineup before a quarter of next season is done and over with. Plus, we need Price to be as good as he was this year, a feat even Martin Brodeur in his prime years wasn't capable of repeating several consecutive years in a row. Price had a great year, it doesn't mean he's in for just as good of a year next season.
If Price isn't absolutely spectacular then we have absolutely no chance at a cup with this roster.

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