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another variation on 9th overall

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:04 PM
  #26
vipernsx
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I'm not a fan of this trade and I am a fan of Dan Girardi though the Rangers are deep in defense and thin at forward. There are teams out there who are looking to make changes and if the Rangers can package up their #15 in a crappy draft, Grachev, or Dan Girardi and land a forward like Martin Havlat, Jacob Voracek, or Ales Hemsky, I'd be all for it!!!

They can sooner fill the whole vacated by Girardi with the plethora of young defensive talent then they with their lack of forward depth. There is no one coming around anytime soon to help them score more goals. Even the mighty Chris Kreider is becoming a question mark as it should become a very real concern that he may pull a Tim Erixon himself.

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06-16-2011, 12:38 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
I'm not a fan of this trade and I am a fan of Dan Girardi though the Rangers are deep in defense and thin at forward. There are teams out there who are looking to make changes and if the Rangers can package up their #15 in a crappy draft, Grachev, or Dan Girardi and land a forward like Martin Havlat, Jacob Voracek, or Ales Hemsky, I'd be all for it!!!

They can sooner fill the whole vacated by Girardi with the plethora of young defensive talent then they with their lack of forward depth. There is no one coming around anytime soon to help them score more goals. Even the mighty Chris Kreider is becoming a question mark as it should become a very real concern that he may pull a Tim Erixon himself.
Our Fs are too thin to expend Grachev.
Girardi is the only one with enough name value and depth below we can gamble on/also it creates a spot for MDZ.

Would rather have MDZ and his upside potential and reduced salary than Girardi.

If we could definitely get a worthwhile proven asset at F, sure.
I am all ears for that.

But since I'm not seeing anything solid, let alone certain, for an established F,
I'm guessing the closest thing to a bankable asset is a higher draft pick.

If we can get two medium high picks --- 9 and 15 --- we may be able to bundle them higher.

We can stand pat or trade.
If we trade it can't be Dubi-AA-Cally we need Fs, and it can't be Staal.
Who else realistically can we trade to get the offensive help we need?


Last edited by bernmeister: 06-16-2011 at 02:19 PM. Reason: typo correction
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06-16-2011, 01:27 PM
  #28
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Even if you assume that Del Zotto rebounds to make the club this year, he can't come close to replacing Girardi's minutes. Is Del Zotto going to take Danny's 25 minutes of rock solid defense each night? That's insanity. They're completely different players. Replacing one with the other makes no sense.

Maybe wait until Del Zotto shows he's still capable of playing serviceable defense before trading half of our first defense pairing?

And anyway, the difference between the 15th pick and the 9th pick in this draft is not substantial. You don't move pieces of the core to move up six spots in a crappy draft. Move into the top three? Maybe worth considering. Not for the ninth pick though, not even close.

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06-16-2011, 02:03 PM
  #29
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in this draft im not sure id trade Girardi straight up for a top 5 pick.

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06-16-2011, 02:15 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Our Fs are too thin to expend Grachev.
If you acquire a top3/6 forward you add forward depth and Grachev becomes expendable so you can move him in the deal that acquires that player, especially if your intentions is to retain that player. Havlat is signed and Voracek would look to be signed long term. If you're not willing to move Grachev in a package for one of those two, you need to check yourself out.

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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
Even if you assume that Del Zotto rebounds to make the club this year, he can't come close to replacing Girardi's minutes. Is Del Zotto going to take Danny's 25 minutes of rock solid defense each night? That's insanity. They're completely different players. Replacing one with the other makes no sense.

Maybe wait until Del Zotto shows he's still capable of playing serviceable defense before trading half of our first defense pairing?

And anyway, the difference between the 15th pick and the 9th pick in this draft is not substantial. You don't move pieces of the core to move up six spots in a crappy draft. Move into the top three? Maybe worth considering. Not for the ninth pick though, not even close.
MDZ isn't going to replace Girardi's minutes defensively he never will, they're two completely separate players. It's silly to even compare the two, I don't know why you would.

On the other hand I know you've read the article about Vtank and his shot blocking down in Hartford, as a 3rd liner, he can start picking up part of the role. Let the "warrior" take on the role of shot blocker.

Another part of the role is going to be taken up by a kid who just got done playing against Ilya Kovalchuk, Alexander Ovechkin, Jason Spezza, & Rick Nash and excelled at it. He's a better skater than Dan Girardi and has just as good of a shot.

No one person takes on his role, but the responsibility is distributed and that's how you replace him.

Can McD and Sauer be the new shutdown pair? Can Erixon play 20 minutes along side stall? Can Vtank play 15? I don't think those are unreasonable yeses.

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06-16-2011, 02:17 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Some posts about trading 15th for 9th abound.
Would prefer to deal keeping the 15th, then with option to deal both 9th + 15th to move up.

Girardi has more established value, which NYR can replace from deep D base we must exploit.

Girardi,
NYR 2nds in 2012 AND in 2013
and 2 freebies Bourque, rights to Gilroy

for 9th overall (Boston from Toronto)
and Bruins first rounder in 2012 or 2013, Boston's choice...

Feedback....
no no no. this is crazy. Girardi is gonna be worth >>> who ever we get at 9. I'm not sold that Mika is gonna be worth more than Girardi is. He's got an affordable cap number which, for his ability, makes him worth even more. Just use the 15th to trade up. This draft ain't that great. Not to mention all the extra crap you just threw in. And I doubt anyone is going to take Gilroy. He's going to be a UFA soon enough, anyways.

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06-16-2011, 02:25 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
no no no. this is crazy. Girardi is gonna be worth >>> who ever we get at 9. I'm not sold that Mika is gonna be worth more than Girardi is. He's got an affordable cap number which, for his ability, makes him worth even more. Just use the 15th to trade up. This draft ain't that great. Not to mention all the extra crap you just threw in. And I doubt anyone is going to take Gilroy. He's going to be a UFA soon enough, anyways.
Bold: that's a big time assumption I do not concede.
Affordable cap makes Girardi desirable, but they still gotta pay. All you guys with dreams Danny Boy will net some insane return (3rd overall, 5th overall) --- good luck with that..
Gilroy I specified as a freebie. Could be ok for a short term deal for BB as a public relations move.

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06-16-2011, 02:32 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
Even if you assume that Del Zotto rebounds to make the club this year, he can't come close to replacing Girardi's minutes. Is Del Zotto going to take Danny's 25 minutes of rock solid defense each night? That's insanity. They're completely different players. Replacing one with the other makes no sense.

Maybe wait until Del Zotto shows he's still capable of playing serviceable defense before trading half of our first defense pairing?


And anyway, the difference between the 15th pick and the 9th pick in this draft is not substantial. You don't move pieces of the core to move up six spots in a crappy draft. Move into the top three? Maybe worth considering. Not for the ninth pick though, not even close.
At the beginning of last year, I was for moving
1) Roszi
2) Girardi
I said kids, McDonnagh, and others (got lucky on Sauer) would emerge.
I was right.

Glad Girardi's stock is rising and we didn't sell him short.
However, we have even stronger prospects to shut down D.
If the Martians kidnapped Girardi, it would hurt, but not be a critical loss.
You're just defending the idea of keeping him because he's a favorite player, which is fine. I have nothing against him. I just want to explore moving the resources that give us the best return which are offset from a basis of depth so as to not realize net loss.

Don't be afraid to take the plunge.

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06-16-2011, 02:41 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
If you acquire a top3/6 forward you add forward depth and Grachev becomes expendable so you can move him in the deal that acquires that player, especially if your intentions is to retain that player. Havlat is signed and Voracek would look to be signed long term. If you're not willing to move Grachev in a package for one of those two, you need to check yourself out. ...

No one person takes on his role, but the responsibility is distributed and that's how you replace him. ... Can McD and Sauer be the new shutdown pair? Can Erixon play 20 minutes along side stall? Can Vtank play 15? I don't think those are unreasonable yeses.
Bold: I open to seeing the deal first, but we are in such bad shape at the moment at F that I'd try to obtain Havlat/Voracek while STILL holding on to Grachev.

Grachev is a beast who's improving.
The good big man usually beats the good little man.
Move an MZA with a D or a G, or even Christian Thomas if the return and upside are worthwhile. We don't move a guy w/Grachev's size and talent at this point, especially since he should be at the garden before the end of the season if not out of camp.

Underline: Concur generally about McD, Sauer, Erixon, Vtank. Am a little more open about seeing one of these guys/MDZ, Pashnin can cut the mustard. In any event, there is enough depth to get close enough minutes from the one who emerges. Plus these are all young guys, not mid 30s geezers who will have problems with stamina.

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06-16-2011, 02:58 PM
  #35
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in this draft im not sure id trade Girardi straight up for a top 5 pick.
I certainly wouldn't. We're in a win-now mode. Pawning off Girardi in hopes we draft, and develop a clear cut improvement sounds like wishful thinking.

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06-16-2011, 03:08 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
I certainly wouldn't. We're in a win-now mode. Pawning off Girardi in hopes we draft, and develop a clear cut improvement sounds like wishful thinking.
only way that would make sense is if you had another deal to replace girardi on the top pair with an upgrade.

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06-16-2011, 05:09 PM
  #37
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
I certainly wouldn't. We're in a win-now mode. Pawning off Girardi in hopes we draft, and develop a clear cut improvement sounds like wishful thinking.
Bold: disagree with the Fs we have right now.

Balance:
Nothing is written in stone, but I'd take that chance; it is not that much wishful thinking, and the higher we get a guy, the less likely it will be for him to need more development, theoretically.

And, if suddenly 5 guys all at once find a scoring touch --- Grachev, Hagelin, etc., then the bluer the blue chip prospect, the more likely it is we can land an important veteran cog for win now, assuming your scenario then manifests and we want to go that route.

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06-16-2011, 05:39 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
MDZ isn't going to replace Girardi's minutes defensively he never will, they're two completely separate players. It's silly to even compare the two, I don't know why you would.

On the other hand I know you've read the article about Vtank and his shot blocking down in Hartford, as a 3rd liner, he can start picking up part of the role. Let the "warrior" take on the role of shot blocker.

Another part of the role is going to be taken up by a kid who just got done playing against Ilya Kovalchuk, Alexander Ovechkin, Jason Spezza, & Rick Nash and excelled at it. He's a better skater than Dan Girardi and has just as good of a shot.

No one person takes on his role, but the responsibility is distributed and that's how you replace him.

Can McD and Sauer be the new shutdown pair? Can Erixon play 20 minutes along side stall? Can Vtank play 15? I don't think those are unreasonable yeses.
They all might end up being yeses, at which point we will still have the option of moving Dan Girardi. But why not wait and see how things turn out? What if McDonagh and Sauer have sophomore slumps, Valentenko can't keep up with NHL forwards and Erixon isn't ready, and we trade Girardi? Then we're absolutely ****ed. There's no reason to move Girardi now, unless it's in a move that clearly upgrades the top six. There's no game-breaker on the board at nine, why do we need to move core assets to acquire that pick?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
At the beginning of last year, I was for moving
1) Roszi
2) Girardi
I said kids, McDonnagh, and others (got lucky on Sauer) would emerge.
I was right.

Glad Girardi's stock is rising and we didn't sell him short.
However, we have even stronger prospects to shut down D.
If the Martians kidnapped Girardi, it would hurt, but not be a critical loss.
You're just defending the idea of keeping him because he's a favorite player, which is fine. I have nothing against him. I just want to explore moving the resources that give us the best return which are offset from a basis of depth so as to not realize net loss.

Don't be afraid to take the plunge.
That is absolutely NOT what I'm doing. I couldn't care less if he's a fan favorite. I advocated for Rosie, even though people hated him. So what's your point?

I'm not afraid to "take the plunge." I just think that your proposal was absolutely awful and poorly conceived. I don't see anything that will likely be left on the board at number nine to make me want to move half of our top pairing, plus two seconds and a B-level prospect. There's absolutely no need for it.

If we're moving Girardi in a deal, it needs to be for something more established, something that we can be reasonably confident will help the NHL team over the next few seasons. I don't think we're that far from being a Cup-caliber club, so I can't fathom trading Girardi for a prospect and banking on the younger defenders to pick up the slack. That seems like a poor use of resources at this juncture in our team's development.

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06-16-2011, 06:13 PM
  #39
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If we're moving Girardi in a deal it needs to be for a top 6 player, simple as that.

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06-16-2011, 06:53 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
If we're moving Girardi in a deal it needs to be for a top 6 player, simple as that.
Exactly. The ninth pick in this year's draft is highly, highly unlikely to make a difference in the next two years. Girardi will. I want to win in the next two years, and think we can...with the right moves. This is not the right move.

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06-16-2011, 07:06 PM
  #41
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Too many Rangers fans are trade happy. The Rangers have developed a legit first pairing tandem which might be a little short of offense (keeping in mind that Staal and Girardi more often than not negate the Crosby's, Ovechkin's, Malkin's etc.) and they want to trade one of them for complimentary scoring or draft picks. We have a young, very solid and cheap defense. It seems we have a plan in place but some people would rather blow it all up and start all over from scratch. Not the right way to go about it at least in my own humble opinion.

We have a lot of pieces in place. If we can get Richards our offense barring major injuries should improve. We don't need complentary scorers. We could use legit 1st line players or at least one more than Gaborik. Teams don't win without scoring but no team is going to win without a good defense and good goaltending. If anything the Bruins are proof of that. A young hard hitting unspectacular defense apart from Chara and good goaltending but that defense was crucial to their eventually winning. They outplayed Vancouver's defense. Breaking up our defense to tweak the offense is not a smart idea. If you want to package Girardi--I want a legit 1st line player coming back our way--not a top draft choice and not some guy that is always getting hurt.

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06-16-2011, 07:09 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
If we're moving Girardi in a deal it needs to be for a top 6 player, simple as that.
Pretty much this. Trading Girardi is a big no no.

He's one of the best minute eating defenseman on the team and does everything he needs to. The guy plays with a lot of heart and tenacity. Plus he's only missed a few games over his career. The guy needs to stay for now.

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06-16-2011, 07:17 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Bold: that's a big time assumption I do not concede.
Affordable cap makes Girardi desirable, but they still gotta pay. All you guys with dreams Danny Boy will net some insane return (3rd overall, 5th overall) --- good luck with that..
Gilroy I specified as a freebie. Could be ok for a short term deal for BB as a public relations move.
no we aren't getting a top 5 for Girardi alone and I don't see any team with a top 5 pick wanting a Girardi package either. Our D prospects aren't ready to step up to fill Danny's shoes so trading him now does not make sense unless they sign a UFA to replace his spot, and that would have to be a short term UFA to make those prospects still viable, which is not a likely scenario. A UFA would also probably get more $ than Danny's current cap hit so also a step backwards in that regards. In a few years, when said prospects are ready to contribute, or if Sauer and McD elevate their game to top D levels, then you certainly have more options at that point. This summer however, is not the time to strike. Our best move right now is to see if MDZ can recover. If that kid finds his game like we think he can, we really won't have any wants on the blue line anymore. This season looks to be the turning point when all the homegrown seeds can be metaphorically harvested. We just have to stay the course to reap the rewards.

If moving up to #9 is so important I don't see why including our #15 to do so is a big deal. In fact, I highly doubt any GM would accept a trade without the #15 included so they can take a player they think is going to fall, or flip their #15 around to trade down a second time, much like how Atlanta did in 2005 trading down so San Jose could select Setoguchi, down so we could select Staal, all the while they ended up with Alex Bourret but I digress. Trying to move up without moving our 1st seems like naive optimism IMO.

If you don't concede Girardi >>> who ever we can get at #9, at least concede Girardi >>> who ever we can get at #15. Statistically speaking, I can be pretty confident of that. The talent really drops. We have to have magic luck to do get a mid-round "steal." (the statistical part of my statement). That you would give two 2nds and Bourque (essentially the package we gave up for Erixon) IN ADDITION to Girardi is crazy to me. Just to hold on to whatever chance we might strike big at 15, as well as 9? Manage your fictional assets better, sir.

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06-17-2011, 01:29 AM
  #44
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No chance would i maske that deal, i wouldn't trade Danny G,shoot hes our most senior d, he and staal are our shutdown pair, what is this children of the corn.... if you did trade him i have to believe you could get a first rounder for just him, maybe not top 10 but somewhere in the mid to late first round. Keep our pick and sign richards

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