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What do we have to do to contend for the cup next season?

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Old
06-16-2011, 03:02 PM
  #101
Melvin Udall
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Our forwards were as big as Boston's.

Habs top-6 and/or 'key' forwards are not as big as Boston's key forwards!

Bruins key forwards (tougher and more physical) "play" bigger than Habs top-6 forwards (more finesse, less tough, less physical).

It is now easy to see that the Bruins are built for the 4-series grind of the playoffs, whereas, the Habs are more built for regular season play....and the Gainey/Gauthier standards of mediocrity.



And what if this is...as good as it gets (for the HABS)?

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06-16-2011, 03:11 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Melvin Udall View Post
Bruins team is beter cut out for the 4-series grind of playoff hockey than are the Habs.
I think this pretty much sums it up

The habs have a good "team" in the sense that they play well together which is huge

The problem becomes surviving through 4 rounds for them... I don't think they have the players to do that

Need to get bigger and tougher

If you look at the bruins lineup they dont' have any really "soft" players except for maybe Kaberle... and he wasn't very effective for them in the playoffs which is no surprise... was playing small minutes and reduced to the 3rd pairing... getting rid of Kessel was one of the best things this organization did

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06-16-2011, 03:21 PM
  #103
didouche
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Halpern instead of Moore was a genius move...Halpern was more productive(5 on 5 points) and on faceoffs and cost about half what Moore costs. I like Moore but Halpern is as good or better.
would you resign halpern for next week?

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06-16-2011, 03:21 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by jlgib21 View Post
What has Markov ever done in the playoffs,and what have we won with him ? Talk about overrating players. He's top10-15 REGULAR season d-man,but has never even been nominated as a Norris finalist.If we sign him,I see him getting the same "ailments" when we play the B's,that he got last year vs. the Flyers
same could have been said of Chara up until this year (minus the Norris nom.)...

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06-16-2011, 03:22 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
SO again, I'll ask:

How do we get better at center in terms of faceoffs? Our current players are barely 50%. Only Halpern was above that average.
Make Plekanec look at Patrice bergeron taking faceoffs on a loop

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06-16-2011, 03:28 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Melvin Udall View Post
Habs top-6 and/or 'key' forwards are not as big as Boston's key forwards!

Bruins key forwards (tougher and more physical) "play" bigger than Habs top-6 forwards (more finesse, less tough, less physical).

It is now easy to see that the Bruins are built for the 4-series grind of the playoffs, whereas, the Habs are more built for regular season play....and the Gainey/Gauthier standards of mediocrity.



And what if this is...as good as it gets (for the HABS)?
In the playoffs if you look at their top 8 players the only one above 6' and 200lbs is Horton who was 4th with 17pts in 21 games. Krejci Bergeron and Marchand who were top 3 average 5'10" and about 185lbs.

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Old
06-16-2011, 03:29 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by didouche View Post
would you resign halpern for next week?
I'd sign him in a heartbeat for 700-900 k.

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Old
06-16-2011, 03:33 PM
  #108
Jack Bourdain
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Originally Posted by didouche View Post
Make Plekanec look at Patrice bergeron taking faceoffs on a loop
You kid, but our players should focus on that this offseason. I'm sure they do, but I really NEED them to be better!

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Old
06-16-2011, 03:39 PM
  #109
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We could use a huge force like

Chara
Byfuglien

or

Pronger


Last edited by Born in 1909: 06-16-2011 at 03:44 PM. Reason: spelling error
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Old
06-16-2011, 03:41 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Born in 1909 View Post
We could use a huge force like

Chara
Byguflin

or

Pronger
One of these things is not like the others...

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Old
06-16-2011, 03:41 PM
  #111
Poulet Kostopoulos
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Being healthy would be a good starting point.

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Old
06-16-2011, 03:47 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Boston doesn't "keep it on their stick" more, they play a lot more dump and chase, obviously by dumping you don't keep the puck. As soon as they take a lead they get it over center and dump it in for the most part.
They dump and chase to gain the offensive zone, which has nothing to do with how long they have the puck on their stick. Dump and chase really doesn't take any possession time away anyway... if you retrieve the puck, which the Bruins do. Thing is, in the defensive zone, and the offensive zone, they'll make you pay if you want to gain possession. You let a lot of energy in the corners against them for puck possession, and really, this is what makes them so hard to play against. Against Montreal, gaining puck possession is much easier, as you only have to put pressure on the defensemen to push them into commiting turnovers. Many of our forwards also prefer to dump and chase, but more often than not, will lose on battles. And at gaining the offensive zone with skating and dangles, we're average at best as a team. Those two teams are absolutely nothing similar on that facet. And if you think otherwise, you should take off your pink-coloured glasses. Boston is actually great at winning battles for the puck, whereas the Habs are pathetic in that aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
For a team that's not even close to contending we nearly took out the eventual champs in round one and got to the final 4 last year, the team can't be as flawed as you seem to think. Boston has flaws also, our defense should be a lot more skilled and mobile than theirs, our PP should still be light years ahead.
We've made it to game 7 because Carey Price has been better than Thomas in games 1 and 2 of the series, and because the Bruins quite obviously took some time to round up into playoffs shape. Thing is, we can argue about how "lucky" they were to take 3 games in overtime; fact is: good teams create their own luck. When you always give the puck back to the opposing team without putting much of a battle all the time, you end up having less chances than they do, and more often than not, losing the game on an eventual "bad break". I really don't know what to tell you if you don't consider Boston to be much better with the puck on their stick than Montreal. They killed us in puck possession time, and there's a reason for it. And no, Gorges and Markov wouldn't have been enough to change much about it. It's about creating momentum and winning battles. Pacioretty would have been huge for us, but Markov and Gorges are exactly more of the same. We'd have been deeper and better, but in the end, the Bruins beat us where we couldn't keep up the pace with them: Puck possession time, puck battles, and aggressiveness.

Now am I suggesting we should go all in and transform into The Bruins 2.0? No. But we have to use the opportunity, use this deception, use this loss to evolve as a team, asking ourselves questions, and fulfilling important and glaring weaknesses. We need many things, including a more clever d-core, more skilled and more rugged depth players, and more of what we saw from Pacioretty last season.

Unfortunately, this doesn't bode too well so far.

We need a more clever/skilled d-core: We kept Gill
We need more skilled and more rugged depth players: We retained Darche.
We need more of what we saw from Pacioretty last season on the top-6: We retained Kostitsyn.

To me, it might show the team hasn't took the opportunity to evolve as an organization, because with the same players, I do not expect anything better than last season.

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Old
06-16-2011, 03:55 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I'd sign him in a heartbeat for 700-900 k.
This is the kind of attitude I hope the management doesn't have. He's a stopgap, not a guy you keep several years. He was there to plug a hole, and we need actual improvements on different facets.

How can you actually say this same team is a Stanley Cup contender? We clearly are not. I mean come on. It's not defeatism... It's pure reality. There are very few contenders in this 30 teams league. And we're not part of them. We're a good 2nd tier (10-20) team, nothing more, nothing less. Slightly above average. But for all we know, things change very quickly in this league, and not adapting more often than not means falling down in the standings, because other teams do adapt.

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Old
06-16-2011, 03:56 PM
  #114
Markowicz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin Udall View Post
Habs top-6 and/or 'key' forwards are not as big as Boston's key forwards!

Bruins key forwards (tougher and more physical) "play" bigger than Habs top-6 forwards (more finesse, less tough, less physical).

It is now easy to see that the Bruins are built for the 4-series grind of the playoffs, whereas, the Habs are more built for regular season play....and the Gainey/Gauthier standards of mediocrity.



And what if this is...as good as it gets (for the HABS)?
This is totally the key. Lucic and Horton made all the smaller boston forwards play big, look big. Travis Moen doesn't have the same effect, neither does Darche, AK or even MaxPac. Only a big, impact forward, who actually uses his size to create space would make our smaller forwards play bigger. This is why i was so pissed that we didn't get in the sweepstakes for Byfuglien last year. He really would solved alot of our problems last year.

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Old
06-16-2011, 04:02 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
This is totally the key. Lucic and Horton made all the smaller boston forwards play big, look big. Travis Moen doesn't have the same effect, neither does Darche, AK or even MaxPac. Only a big, impact forward, who actually uses his size to create space would make our smaller forwards play bigger. This is why i was so pissed that we didn't get in the sweepstakes for Byfuglien last year. He really would solved alot of our problems last year.
This goes even deeper than Lucic and Horton. It goes all the way from top to bottom, with guys like Pyatt, Darche and Halpern instead of guys like Campbell, Paille and Kelly. Guys like McQuaid and Boychuk instead of guys like Gill and Spacek. And I don't even want to talk about fighting. It doesn't matter to me. It's all about making life tougher to the opponents and the opposing defensemen. It's about being capable of contributing in many facets of the game even when you're not producing, which can't be said about guys like Darche. Pyatt might be decent defensively, he's still pathetic offensively and his physical game is non-existant. Halpern once was a verygood depth player, but he's up there in age and is no longer an option. As for our defensemen, Gill only has his stick at this point, and Spacek is an incredible liability on a competitive roster.

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06-16-2011, 04:08 PM
  #116
Markowicz
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Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
This goes even deeper than Lucic and Horton. It goes all the way from top to bottom, with guys like Pyatt, Darche and Halpern instead of guys like Campbell, Paille and Kelly. Guys like McQuaid and Boychuk instead of guys like Gill and Spacek. And I don't even want to talk about fighting. It doesn't matter to me. It's all about making life tougher to the opponents and the opposing defensemen. It's about being capable of contributing in many facets of the game even when you're not producing, which can't be said about guys like Darche. Pyatt might be decent defensively, he's still pathetic offensively and his physical game is non-existant. Halpern once was a verygood depth player, but he's up there in age and is no longer an option. As for our defensemen, Gill only has his stick at this point, and Spacek is an incredible liability on a competitive roster.
not going to disagree. There's a reason they won the cup, they had the best balance top to bottom. But i truly believe that all our high priced players would have ha significantly better years with a key big skilled playing with them, and most importantly 5 on 5. I'm not even going to get into other weaknesses at this point.

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Old
06-16-2011, 04:10 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Cheat.
Get the benefit of calls.
Create a stigma and identity that the media perpetrates that gets into the head of the league, officials and players.
?????
Profit.
You Sir just spoke my soul. Damn you are right, damn I hate Bettman and damn I hate the ****ing Bruins.

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06-16-2011, 04:12 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Born in 1909 View Post
We could use a huge force like

Chara
Byfuglien

or

Pronger
Byfuglien is like Wisniewski with no clue what to do in his own end. pronger is a broken down old man.

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Old
06-16-2011, 04:18 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Byfuglien is like Wisniewski with no clue what to do in his own end. pronger is a broken down old man.
To say Wiz has "no clue what to do in his own end" is definitely pushing it. Especially with the disasters we've seen with the Habs jersey on their shoulders in the last few years (Niinimaa, Bergeron, etc.)

Wisniewski won't eat the toughest defensive minutes on your team, but he'll definitely hold his own against most of the league.

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06-16-2011, 04:23 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Byfuglien is like Wisniewski with no clue what to do in his own end. pronger is a broken down old man.
Honestly........that poster said a force "like" any one of those players and each was a force for their respective teams enroute to Stanley Cups.

Pronger
Byfuglien
Chara

The Habs' version is Markov who I can never see grinding it out through the Stanley Cup finals. Especially if his only support is going to be the current roster. I can't see the Smurfs grinding it out. The Habs stood every chance of beating the Bruins this year but like last year they would have run into a brick wall before reaching the finals - just like against Philly last year.

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06-16-2011, 04:27 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
They dump and chase to gain the offensive zone, which has nothing to do with how long they have the puck on their stick. Dump and chase really doesn't take any possession time away anyway... if you retrieve the puck, which the Bruins do. Thing is, in the defensive zone, and the offensive zone, they'll make you pay if you want to gain possession. You let a lot of energy in the corners against them for puck possession, and really, this is what makes them so hard to play against. Against Montreal, gaining puck possession is much easier, as you only have to put pressure on the defensemen to push them into commiting turnovers. Many of our forwards also prefer to dump and chase, but more often than not, will lose on battles. And at gaining the offensive zone with skating and dangles, we're average at best as a team. Those two teams are absolutely nothing similar on that facet. And if you think otherwise, you should take off your pink-coloured glasses. Boston is actually great at winning battles for the puck, whereas the Habs are pathetic in that aspect.



We've made it to game 7 because Carey Price has been better than Thomas in games 1 and 2 of the series, and because the Bruins quite obviously took some time to round up into playoffs shape. Thing is, we can argue about how "lucky" they were to take 3 games in overtime; fact is: good teams create their own luck. When you always give the puck back to the opposing team without putting much of a battle all the time, you end up having less chances than they do, and more often than not, losing the game on an eventual "bad break". I really don't know what to tell you if you don't consider Boston to be much better with the puck on their stick than Montreal. They killed us in puck possession time, and there's a reason for it. And no, Gorges and Markov wouldn't have been enough to change much about it. It's about creating momentum and winning battles. Pacioretty would have been huge for us, but Markov and Gorges are exactly more of the same. We'd have been deeper and better, but in the end, the Bruins beat us where we couldn't keep up the pace with them: Puck possession time, puck battles, and aggressiveness.

Now am I suggesting we should go all in and transform into The Bruins 2.0? No. But we have to use the opportunity, use this deception, use this loss to evolve as a team, asking ourselves questions, and fulfilling important and glaring weaknesses. We need many things, including a more clever d-core, more skilled and more rugged depth players, and more of what we saw from Pacioretty last season.

Unfortunately, this doesn't bode too well so far.

We need a more clever/skilled d-core: We kept Gill
We need more skilled and more rugged depth players: We retained Darche.
We need more of what we saw from Pacioretty last season on the top-6: We retained Kostitsyn.

To me, it might show the team hasn't took the opportunity to evolve as an organization, because with the same players, I do not expect anything better than last season.
You're making no sense at all..."Dump and chase really doesn't take any possession time away anyway". That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one...So by giving the opposition the puck and then trying to get it back you don't lose time of posession...wait while I laugh out loud

That's the whole point, the Habs are built to keep the puck once they have it, Boston dumps it and tries to retrieve it...puck posession vs dump and chase. Adding good forecheckers is a definite need, a healthy Pacioretty would be a nice start, he was one of our best all year. Eller and AK are pretty good also. I'd like a Laich if he isn't overpriced, but Cole or Langenbrunner could bridge the gap until somebody better comes along if Laich is too expensive.

For the Habs to beat Boston, we have to maintain our identity but strengthen our weaknesses, add a bit more size and toughness but still beat them with speed.

By the same token Boston beat Vancouver instead of losing in 5 or 6 because Thomas outplayed Luongo. If Thomas doesn't stop 3-4 sure goals early in games 3, 4 and 6, Vancouver takes a lead and probably wins one or more of those games. In those games Luongo gave up like 10 goals in the first 30 minutes(90 minutes total) of those 3 games.

Adding Markov Gorges and Yemelin can't help but improve the skill, smarts and mobility of the defense. Gill was a beast the last 2 playoffs and he has his role during the season on PK, not sure how keeping him is in any way a bad thing?

How does Darche prevent us from adding more rugged players? He isn't the problem, he's one of our guys with size that goes to the dirty areas and he is a very productive player for his ice time. Winning teams have guys like him as depth players.

How does keeping AK prevent Pacioretty from doing what he did last year? AK is inconsistant, but over a full year his production for the ice time he got was good, he's a horse, he needs a coach to play him, not cut his ice time every time he struggles a bit...letting him walk for nothing would have been dumb.

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Old
06-16-2011, 04:28 PM
  #122
Poulet Kostopoulos
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Not sure why people keep saying Wiz is horrible defensively. Is it because of his +/- with the Islanders?

Besides, you want grit and toughness? This guy has them.

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Old
06-16-2011, 04:29 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
To say Wiz has "no clue what to do in his own end" is definitely pushing it. Especially with the disasters we've seen with the Habs jersey on their shoulders in the last few years (Niinimaa, Bergeron, etc.)

Wisniewski won't eat the toughest defensive minutes on your team, but he'll definitely hold his own against most of the league.
Byfuglien is useless in his own end. Wisniewski is average defensively. I meant they are in similar roles but Wisniewski is better defensively and Byfuflien is about 3-4 inches taller and 50lbs heavier.

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Old
06-16-2011, 04:35 PM
  #124
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Serious contenders? Nothing Gauthier can do for the Habs to make a quantum leap next season. The upcoming draft picks are unlikelyto make an immediate impact. Nor are there saviors among the likely UFAs. Let's hope they can finish sixth again and use it as a platform for the following season.

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Old
06-16-2011, 04:41 PM
  #125
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Big, speedy players, but I refuse to agree with going down the goon route. That's not Canadiens hockey.

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