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Habs don't need 4th line goons...

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Old
06-16-2011, 06:56 PM
  #26
schwartzy
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Size and toughness, are two different things. Shawn Thornton and a Nathan Horton are exactly what this team needs, stop drinking the Kool-Aid
yup, you're right. i've been preaching this for years....pretty much since the early to mid 90's. people just don't understand, it's not about havin' goons. it's about having guy's on your team that can play and take care of themselves and their teammates. Thorton exemplifies this. Clowe exemplifies this. Larry Robinson exemplified this. There are many more past and present players that, again, exemplify this.

I would also argue someone, like Travis Moen, would be much more effective as a third or fourth line with someone like Thorton on the team. Heck, it would certainly insulate some of the smaller top six players; it's just the way things are. Montreal won a lot of cups with tough and effective players in the line-up. Again, a goon is a misunderstanding of what we need in my opinion.

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06-16-2011, 07:00 PM
  #27
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I agree. Matchups are absolutely key, and no coach is crazy enough to allow his fourth line to be out against the opposing top-6 if he can help it. Fourth lines therefore invariably play very sheltered minutes against the other team's fourth line; coaches know these guys can hurt them, and protect them accordingly.

Therefore, if your 4th lines has decent hockey players (and Desharnais is perfect for that) and the other team doesn't, one of two things will happen:

1 - the two fourth lines will play each other and your guys will have a marked advantadge and may get you a few scoring chances
2 - the other coach keeps his fourth line on the bench, forcing his top 9 to play more minutes, and tiring them out more. (This works especially well if your fourth line guys are good enough hockey players to play their third line and not get pasted).

It's better to load up on as much hockey playing ability as you possibly can get. Guys whose ONLY purpose is to provide size or grit have no intrinsic value; they need to be useful hockey players to help your team.


Last edited by MathMan: 06-16-2011 at 07:08 PM.
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06-16-2011, 07:01 PM
  #28
Jyroe Habs Fan
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Originally Posted by habsleafs4life View Post
I agree! Like I said in another thread, we need big, fairly speedy top 6 forwards (already have one in Patches) who can throw good clean hits. I really hope that teams aren't going to be following the big, bad Bruins formula. IMO that would make for a really boring, despicable NHL.
I completely disagree, we need an effective player like Thorton. We don't need 5 tough guys who can't skate but Thorton unlike Larague can skate. \
We need JF Jacques off the Oilers for starters but I think the Pansification of the Gauthier years are here.
We are terrible 5 on 5 why, we can't seperate the other team from the puck, our forecheck is terrible and we can't clear our d zone effectively.

We also need more North American heart, did you see the Sedins disappear in the final.

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06-16-2011, 07:06 PM
  #29
schwartzy
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Originally Posted by Jyroe Habs Fan View Post
I completely disagree, we need an effective player like Thorton. We don't need 5 tough guys who can't skate but Thorton unlike Larague can skate. \
We need JF Jacques off the Oilers for starters but I think the Pansification of the Gauthier years are here.
We are terrible 5 on 5 why, we can't seperate the other team from the puck, our forecheck is terrible and we can't clear our d zone effectively.

We also need more North American heart, did you see the Sedins disappear in the final.
yah, a combination of smaller players and passive, defensive style hockey. not a summation i care much for. it's nice to read that some people at least realize that we need to augment the team with some effective big players.

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06-16-2011, 07:07 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jyroe Habs Fan View Post
I completely disagree, we need an effective player like Thorton. We don't need 5 tough guys who can't skate but Thorton unlike Larague can skate. \
We need JF Jacques off the Oilers for starters but I think the Pansification of the Gauthier years are here.
We are terrible 5 on 5 why, we can't seperate the other team from the puck, our forecheck is terrible and we can't clear our d zone effectively.

We also need more North American heart, did you see the Sedins disappear in the final.
Our forecheck isn't horrible, we play a soft 1-2-2 or 1-1-3. Of course we're not going to generate a lot of pressure.

But it's designed that way.

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06-16-2011, 07:08 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jyroe Habs Fan View Post
I completely disagree, we need an effective player like Thorton. We don't need 5 tough guys who can't skate but Thorton unlike Larague can skate. \
We need JF Jacques off the Oilers for starters but I think the Pansification of the Gauthier years are here.
We are terrible 5 on 5 why, we can't seperate the other team from the puck, our forecheck is terrible and we can't clear our d zone effectively.

We also need more North American heart, did you see the Sedins disappear in the final.
Jacques isn't a regular on the worst team in the league. He stinks and would have zero value to the Habs.

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06-16-2011, 07:09 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Jacques isn't a regular on the worst team in the league. He stinks and would have zero value to the Habs.
It doesn't matter. He's big and he hits, even if he plays five minutes a game, that would make him invaluable to a smurf team like the Habs. They'd become much better instantly.

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06-16-2011, 07:12 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
This couldn't fit in the "GM 2011-2012" thread?
Here's an idea... let's merge ALL topics under "Montreal Canadiens talk"

I think it would work great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I agree. Matchups are absolutely key, and no coach is crazy enough to allow his fourth line to be out against the opposing top-6 if he can help it. Fourth lines therefore invariably play very sheltered minutes against the other team's fourth line; coaches know these guys can hurt them, and protect them accordingly.

Therefore, if your 4th lines has decent hockey players (and Desharnais is perfect for that) and the other team doesn't, one of two things will happen:

1 - the two fourth lines will play each other and your guys will have a marked advantadge and may get you a few scoring chances
2 - the other coach keeps his fourth line on the bench, forcing his top 9 to play more minutes, and tiring them out more. (This works especially well if your fourth line guys are good enough hockey players to play their third line and not get pasted).

It's better to load up on as much hockey playing ability as you possibly can get. Guys whose ONLY purpose is to provide size or grit have no intrinsic value; they need to be useful hockey players to help your team.
Definitely agree.

BUT, size does help in the top 6. Allows you to have another option when it comes to producing offense. Bottom lines aren't what makes you win anyway.

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06-16-2011, 07:15 PM
  #34
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It doesn't matter. He's big and he hits, even if he plays five minutes a game, that would make him invaluable to a smurf team like the Habs. They'd become much better instantly.
The magic fourth-liner effect. They make the team better without actually playing .



Well technically the team is better because they are on the bench but that's because of the massive liability they are when they play.

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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Definitely agree.

BUT, size does help in the top 6. Allows you to have another option when it comes to producing offense. Bottom lines aren't what makes you win anyway.
While I'm not as convinced about the extent size is a factor, I agree. If you want to add an element it has to be in the portion of the lineup that plays serious minutes. Lucic, Clowe and Hartnell are guys good enough to play so their qualities can actually be put to use.

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06-16-2011, 07:24 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
BUT, size does help in the top 6. Allows you to have another option when it comes to producing offense. Bottom lines aren't what makes you win anyway.
Size is a useful tool, just like speed. I don't think it's necessary, but used well, it can really help. But you can do fine without it if you have enough other tools (speed, shiftiness, hockey sense, puck skill, etc, etc, oh, hi Mr. Gionta).

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06-16-2011, 07:26 PM
  #36
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yup, you're right. i've been preaching this for years....pretty much since the early to mid 90's. people just don't understand, it's not about havin' goons. it's about having guy's on your team that can play and take care of themselves and their teammates. Thorton exemplifies this. Clowe exemplifies this. Larry Robinson exemplified this. There are many more past and present players that, again, exemplify this.

I would also argue someone, like Travis Moen, would be much more effective as a third or fourth line with someone like Thorton on the team. Heck, it would certainly insulate some of the smaller top six players; it's just the way things are. Montreal won a lot of cups with tough and effective players in the line-up. Again, a goon is a misunderstanding of what we need in my opinion.
That's exactly my opinion we don't need goons, just some more physical tough player that can play a good level of hockey and stand up for themselves and their teammates.

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06-16-2011, 07:29 PM
  #37
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Are people only excited with him because of that one hit in college hockey that got him kicked out of the NCAA??
Are you asking that because that's the only thing you've seen of him ?

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06-16-2011, 07:34 PM
  #38
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Are people only excited with him because of that one hit in college hockey that got him kicked out of the NCAA??
What an ass clown.

Guy was the 6th goal scorer for the Dogs while piling up PIMs.

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06-16-2011, 07:37 PM
  #39
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totally disagree, the bruins had one in Thornton and Chicago had one last year in Eager. You need some protection to keep your players heatly and keep the other team honest, it's pretty much proven fact at this point
The injuries to Markov, Gorges and Pacioretty would therefore not have occurred had we had a fighter on the team? How is that so? Please explain this to me.

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06-16-2011, 07:44 PM
  #40
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We don't need a goon per say, but we definitely need to add size and toughness to our forwards.

I'd sign a guy like Konopka to play on the 4th line instead of Halpern. Konopka is more durable and just as good on faceoffs. And for what he lacks in offence and defence, he makes up for in toughness.

I'd also try to sign a guy like Hartnell or Asham to add some size to our wingers. Both players have also shown that they can provide some offence when called upon too. Either of those players would be a huge upgrade over Pyatt or Darche.

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06-16-2011, 07:48 PM
  #41
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The problem with Konopka is that he's really not a good hockey player. He's big, sure, but he isn't good at either end of the ice.

Sure, he can win faceoffs, but then what? He can't just immediately get off. He's not good enough to do anything with the puck. And because he's strictly a fourth-liner and he's not good defensively either, you can't use his faceoff skills on important faceoffs, because should he lose, or even if he wins, he would not be the kind of guy you'd want out in important situations... especially since the other team will naturally roll out their top guys at those key moments.

So he's basically a tough guy with an extra skill you can't really use. Not much point.

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06-16-2011, 07:50 PM
  #42
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The injuries to Markov, Gorges and Pacioretty would therefore not have occurred had we had a fighter on the team? How is that so? Please explain this to me.
I believe you are asking the wrong person Colin Campbell is in a better position to answer that question!

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06-16-2011, 08:41 PM
  #43
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I don't think we need a goon but I'd love to have a guy like Brad Winchester who can possibly chip in 10 goals, plays physical and fights instead of a guy like Pyatt on our fourth line.
Pyatt is a bit wasted on the fourth line. He does best on the third line shutting down a second or first line from the other team. Moore-Lapierre-Pyatt was killer.

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06-16-2011, 08:51 PM
  #44
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I agree. Matchups are absolutely key, and no coach is crazy enough to allow his fourth line to be out against the opposing top-6 if he can help it. Fourth lines therefore invariably play very sheltered minutes against the other team's fourth line; coaches know these guys can hurt them, and protect them accordingly.

Therefore, if your 4th lines has decent hockey players (and Desharnais is perfect for that) and the other team doesn't, one of two things will happen:

1 - the two fourth lines will play each other and your guys will have a marked advantadge and may get you a few scoring chances
2 - the other coach keeps his fourth line on the bench, forcing his top 9 to play more minutes, and tiring them out more. (This works especially well if your fourth line guys are good enough hockey players to play their third line and not get pasted).

It's better to load up on as much hockey playing ability as you possibly can get. Guys whose ONLY purpose is to provide size or grit have no intrinsic value; they need to be useful hockey players to help your team.
I dont know if you heard or not, but the Bruins won the Stanley Cup last night.

Vancouver was outplaying the Bruins in the first two games. So what does Julien do? Inserts the non-goal scoring Thornton into the lineup to bang some Canucks heads. That was his only job. Ditto with Junior Campbell.

And like it or not, and whether you will deny it or not, it worked.

For the last 10 or so years, the Habs have been weak. For too long the management has taken your approach..........put a "skilled" but small player on the 4th line with the hopes of outplaying the other team's 4th line with speed. Doesnt work. Hasnt in the past and it wont in the future.

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06-16-2011, 08:52 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Jyroe Habs Fan View Post
I completely disagree, we need an effective player like Thorton. We don't need 5 tough guys who can't skate but Thorton unlike Larague can skate. \
We need JF Jacques off the Oilers for starters but I think the Pansification of the Gauthier years are here.
We are terrible 5 on 5 why, we can't seperate the other team from the puck, our forecheck is terrible and we can't clear our d zone effectively.

We also need more North American heart, did you see the Sedins disappear in the final.
I agree with you. I am afraid that PG, with the insistence of Jacques Martin, will keep this team soft.

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06-16-2011, 09:02 PM
  #46
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I dont know if you heard or not, but the Bruins won the Stanley Cup last night.

Vancouver was outplaying the Bruins in the first two games. So what does Julien do? Inserts the non-goal scoring Thornton into the lineup to bang some Canucks heads. That was his only job. Ditto with Junior Campbell.

And like it or not, and whether you will deny it or not, it worked.
Yes, I'm sure it really totally intimidated Luongo. Because, as I'm sure you've noticed, Luongo goaling below replacement level was the key factor in the series.

As for the intimidation factor of Thornton, I find the notion hilarious. If you're asking why the Sedins didn't score, well, there's a guy who won a Conn Smythe for a reason.

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06-16-2011, 09:06 PM
  #47
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Yes, I'm sure it really totally intimidated Luongo. Because, as I'm sure you've noticed, Luongo goaling below replacement level was the key factor in the series.

As for the intimidation factor of Thornton, I find the notion hilarious. If you're asking why the Sedins didn't score, well, there's a guy who won a Conn Smythe for a reason.
Although to be fair, Thorton's line does help Boston. But more in the sense that they are much better than average fourth line at actually playing hockey.

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06-16-2011, 09:12 PM
  #48
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The "New" NHL has laid down the rules. If you want to win a Stanley Cup, it is mandatory that you break the vertebras of two players from two different Cup contending teams. And that is the minimum.

In all seriousness, I dont know if it was simply because Campbell's Bruins were in the Finals, but watching a Game 7 with penalties being committed every shift without being called by the refs does not ever bode well for success for the Canadiens with the team that we have now.

PG needs to toughen this team up with a strong 4th line or get steamrolled by teams whose GMs watched last night and will get the tough guys that are needed.

Its a damn shame that the sport of professional hockey has decided to take the low road------Boston Bruins thuggery style.
After the lockout, we actually saw some half-decent officiating. There were 25 penalties in some games but the game was cleaned up. Now, we are reverting back to the way things were in the 1970s and during the dead puck era of the late 1990s. Injuring a player is all good now. This means a team like the Canadiens are in tough to win the Cup because many of their players will be injured by teh time the playoffs begin.

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06-16-2011, 09:21 PM
  #49
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I agree. Matchups are absolutely key, and no coach is crazy enough to allow his fourth line to be out against the opposing top-6 if he can help it. Fourth lines therefore invariably play very sheltered minutes against the other team's fourth line; coaches know these guys can hurt them, and protect them accordingly.
Mathman - I guess you didn't watch the game closely last night. In the 1st 5 min. of the game the Canucks were taking it Bruins, except when Julien put the 4th line out. All of a sudden the puck was in the Vancouver end and the D was getting punished. Vineault put the twins out against them and they spent a shift in their own end with their faces pressed up against the glass. After that the twins never were put out against the 4th line. Julien had no fear to roll them out on a regular shift.

The Bruins had a perfect 4th line - 2 of them were their best penalty killers so they know how to play defense and won't hurt the team no matter who they play against. They just won't score any. They allowed the Bruins to run 4 lines which became a problem for Vancouver since they are primarily a 3 line team. Over the course of a series the Bruins wore down the opposition. It was how they approached all of the series.

The Habs use their best players to kill penalties - in the playoffs this just wears them out when they need to conserve their strength for offense. They would be much better served to build a PK specialist 4th line which by definition would be defensively responsible. This would shift some of the minutes of the best players from preventing goals, to scoring them. It also has the benefit of keeping them fresher throughout the season and HEALTHIER.

Is Blair Betts available? -he is a perfect 4th line PK specialist that you build the 4th line around.

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06-16-2011, 09:53 PM
  #50
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Mathman - I guess you didn't watch the game closely last night. In the 1st 5 min. of the game the Canucks were taking it Bruins, except when Julien put the 4th line out. All of a sudden the puck was in the Vancouver end and the D was getting punished. Vineault put the twins out against them and they spent a shift in their own end with their faces pressed up against the glass. After that the twins never were put out against the 4th line. Julien had no fear to roll them out on a regular shift.

The Bruins had a perfect 4th line - 2 of them were their best penalty killers so they know how to play defense and won't hurt the team no matter who they play against. They just won't score any. They allowed the Bruins to run 4 lines which became a problem for Vancouver since they are primarily a 3 line team. Over the course of a series the Bruins wore down the opposition. It was how they approached all of the series.

The Habs use their best players to kill penalties - in the playoffs this just wears them out when they need to conserve their strength for offense. They would be much better served to build a PK specialist 4th line which by definition would be defensively responsible. This would shift some of the minutes of the best players from preventing goals, to scoring them. It also has the benefit of keeping them fresher throughout the season and HEALTHIER.

Is Blair Betts available? -he is a perfect 4th line PK specialist that you build the 4th line around.
A guy like Weber? Who alternates in Defence too?

This is why I wanna have Desharnais on the 3rd line with Eller and Kostityn. The lil' devil has too much talent to be wasted on what could be a conservative 4th line. Plus, I believe he would be a great addition to the relatively heavy duo. 2 playmakers, 2 talented forward, 1 highly skilled but relatively.. mentally challenged when things don't turn his way.

I believe success can come from our 3rd and 4th line, supported by an offence-oriented blueline. If we achieve that, we only need a relatively better punch from our Top-6, and that's going to happen very easily with Patch in the lineup, Gomez having a marginally better season (I believe he will bounce back).

Gomez merely had to have 10 more goals, he would still had a sub-par year, but it would have made a helluva difference through the entire season.

So... who do we need on the 4th line? I nominate Weber, as a 7th defensemen too. Maybe PP/PK specialist.

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