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Toni Lydman to Buffalo (Fan 960 out of Calgary)

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Old
08-26-2005, 08:54 AM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
How do you know that you could get much more then a 3rd rounder for Hecht?

I'm really suprised by this deal, Jame. If the Isles had traded Parrish or Blake for Lydman, I would not have flinched.

Here is the aspect of this that surprises me: Lydman was a salary dump, that is clear. But, there are quite a few teams with cap room that need dmen (like LA). So, how come the current NHL demand for experienced dmen did not drive up Lydman's value?
I have to say darth, I agree with you 100%. Lydman should have gotten more than a 3rd. That being said, I think they were asking for prospects or draft picks, they probably wanted to dump the salary straight up. LA isn't exactly is a great cap position, so they probably wanted to do a player/player swap with them taking on a little, as did the Isles. No cap, Lydman gets a better return IMHO. Also, I think this might be a little kick back for the Drury deal.

Then, the deal, Buffalo gave up: Warrener+Ballard for Drury and Begin. Calgary CLEARLY won that trade as Buffalo overpaid for Drury, who was a salary dump as well.

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08-26-2005, 09:02 AM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
a precurser? Like what, flipping that 3rd rounder to Ottawa for Spezza? Come on man. A deal for a 3rd round pick can't be a precurser for anything.
They dumped salary. It can be a precurser to adding salary in an adjacent deal.

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08-26-2005, 09:06 AM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaneuf
See ya Toni! Hope your head is feeling ok! Last time I checked he was having some concussion problems.

You Calgary fans that are crying need to give it a rest. Sutter knows what he's doing and if he could have got a second he would have.
What, no copy/paste job from TSN in this thread?

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08-26-2005, 09:41 AM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
C'mon, you know it's more than just them. Warrener hits everything in sight. Jay McKee (who was offered instead in that trade, btw) wasn't the same, for a long time, without his old tag team partner.

As it turned out, Warrener alone was worth the price of Drury. Then Regier threw in Reinprecht as if he were nothing. Maybe Sutter's returning the favor, so he can still deal with Regier in the future?



Salary dump entered into the equation too.


He did well here and I find it interesting that he's now gone to three Stanley Cup finals. The guy always seems to make his partner better and he gets it done when it matters most.

The puck-bunny comment was a bit of sarcasm. But only a bit.

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08-26-2005, 09:45 AM
  #180
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[QUOTE=mdoak]I have to say darth, I agree with you 100%. Lydman should have gotten more than a 3rd. That being said, I think they were asking for prospects or draft picks, they probably wanted to dump the salary straight up. [QUOTE]

I thought we agreed that a players market value is only what another team will pay for him. this has been the standard for a long time around here. why has toni lydman become the exception that that rule?

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08-26-2005, 09:58 AM
  #181
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I went back and revisited the Lydman trade threads and it is clear that Flames fans did totally overrate Lydman's value and a lot of the offers made were pretty much accurate. In fact many of the deals offered for Lydman and laughed at by Flames fans were much better than what they got.

Also in looking at the threads you can see some pretty condescending comments by *some* Calgary fans, so I find any complaints about gloating to be a little hollow.

All fans overrate their own players and all fans ask for more than what they are offering, so Calgary fans are no different. But if you are going to adamantly and emphatically state that Lydman has tons of value, that the Flames don't need to trade him because of salary and that if they do trade him they are going to get way more than what other fans are offering.... then you better be ready for a little ribbing when you are proven wrong.

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08-26-2005, 10:19 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
I have to say darth, I agree with you 100%. Lydman should have gotten more than a 3rd. That being said, I think they were asking for prospects or draft picks, they probably wanted to dump the salary straight up. LA isn't exactly is a great cap position, so they probably wanted to do a player/player swap with them taking on a little, as did the Isles. No cap, Lydman gets a better return IMHO. Also, I think this might be a little kick back for the Drury deal.

Then, the deal, Buffalo gave up: Warrener+Ballard for Drury and Begin. Calgary CLEARLY won that trade as Buffalo overpaid for Drury, who was a salary dump as well.
What this trade tells me is the that the $ pressures caused by the Cap and other economic issues are going to have more of an influence than the current NHL shortage of quality dman.

Either way, this shows part of the wisdom of Reiger's strategy. By standing on the sidelines, and not over extending his payroll, he got himself a very useful player at a big discount.

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08-26-2005, 10:52 AM
  #183
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Nice trade for Buffalo...

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08-26-2005, 10:56 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
What this trade tells me is the that the $ pressures caused by the Cap and other economic issues are going to have more of an influence than the current NHL shortage of quality dman.

Either way, this shows part of the wisdom of Reiger's strategy. By standing on the sidelines, and not over extending his payroll, he got himself a very useful player at a big discount.
obviously the cap had a lot to do with the trade. but i was taking that into account the whole time. just like the Markov deal. Lydman is worth a 3rd rounder. yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

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08-26-2005, 11:02 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo
They dumped salary. It can be a precurser to adding salary in an adjacent deal.
Do you think he's on the verge of signing one of the last offensive wingers out there?/ (bondra)??

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08-26-2005, 11:09 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
obviously the cap had a lot to do with the trade. but i was taking that into account the whole time. just like the Markov deal. Lydman is worth a 3rd rounder. yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Not tommorow! I'll bet the Sabres could move him for more than they paid at the deadline.

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08-26-2005, 11:21 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Not tommorow! I'll bet the Sabres could move him for more than they paid at the deadline.
good point darth. at the deadline the sabres will trade him back to Calgary for Iginla.

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08-26-2005, 04:53 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by NYC Aim 4588
Seems to be a thing with Flames and Toronto fans as well as MTL, can I ask why do you people constantly over rate your players and prospects, if half these guys were anywhere you wouldnt think what you do about them, thats a fact.

I just dont get it.

How you doing MRMASTRDON ?
Can I ask you this? What are you such a *****?

These kind of statements should not be tolerated. I'll take my chances on ban points, but that just had to be said. I just hope this dipstick's trolling won't be protected.

(And yes, I think the deal sucks. I would have held onto Lydman.)

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08-26-2005, 04:57 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
good point darth. at the deadline the sabres will trade him back to Calgary for Iginla.
Kind of ticked off at Calgary friends, eh?

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08-26-2005, 04:58 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Jame
if you had just showed some class yourself and acknowledged how wrong you were it wouldn't have gotten this far. a simple "hey jame, you were right" would've done fine.
You seriously need that?

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08-26-2005, 05:06 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Kind of ticked off at Calgary friends, eh?
no. i am just puzzled by them. they are so defensive.

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08-26-2005, 05:18 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
no. i am just puzzled by them. they are so defensive.
What I'm puzzled by is how you see a need to have people give you "your rights."

I only wish I got those. Let's see... I said Lydman would be delt about 2 years ago. I said under the cap, cap space would be worth more then player value, and you would see some real steals because of salary dumps. And I said Lydman was worth a tier 2 prospect, and a name I've been pimping for weeks has been Jeremy Colliton for Lydman.

I think you should show some class and give me some "Hey Splat, you were right. U DA MAN!"

Oh no wait, I don't actually care.

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08-26-2005, 05:24 PM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
What I'm puzzled by is how you see a need to have people give you "your rights."

I only wish I got those. Let's see... I said Lydman would be delt about 2 years ago. I said under the cap, cap space would be worth more then player value, and you would see some real steals because of salary dumps. And I said Lydman was worth a tier 2 prospect, and a name I've been pimping for weeks has been Jeremy Colliton for Lydman.

I think you should show some class and give me some "Hey Splat, you were right. U DA MAN!"

Oh no wait, I don't actually care.
ok splat, you da man.... .but my posts in this thread were in response to a specific debate with a specific person. i wasnt talking to you. or did i quote you somewhere by mistake?

but hey. if you called it. then good for you. way to be rationale. it's hard to find that around here.

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08-26-2005, 05:28 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Chainshot
I'm not so sure I understand why Flames fans are so upset about Sutter moving $1.9 million off the books for a third rounder and freeing up a roster space for one of the most dynamic prospect blueliners? Especially considering the market has pretty much been set for defensemen in the 3-7 bracket? What team wants to pay their #5 guy $1.9 million a year?
Because Lydman wouldn't be a No 5, he would be a No 4 (doesn't sound like a big difference, but will be explaiend).

The difference between keeping Lydman or not would have been directly related to Phaneuf's chances on the team. Basically, the option was Lydman at 1.9 or Phaneuf at ~1. For 900k, you could have a steady defenseman who can play the No 4 position, but can also step up to the top 2 in case of injury - which is bound to happen. You could also have Dion Phaneuf groom his game in the minors as well.

Instead, should any of Warraner, Regehr, Leopold or Hamrlik go down, Ference is suddenly pushed into the top 4. Ok, no biggie. Next up the depth chart? A rookie in Phaneuf. After that? Steve Montador. Not to mention the depth gets really sketchy afer Montador, with Ritchie Regehr probably being the No 8 defenseman.

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08-26-2005, 05:48 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Instead, should any of Warraner, Regehr, Leopold or Hamrlik go down, Ference is suddenly pushed into the top 4. Ok, no biggie. Next up the depth chart? A rookie in Phaneuf. After that? Steve Montador. Not to mention the depth gets really sketchy afer Montador, with Ritchie Regehr probably being the No 8 defenseman.
Still, that depth (Phaneuf or Ference filling for a top 4 spot) is still much better than many teams in the league.

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08-26-2005, 06:05 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Still, that depth (Phaneuf or Ference filling for a top 4 spot) is still much better than many teams in the league.
The Flames arn't looking to be "much better than many teams in the league." IMO, the Flames should be making a run for the cup. The Flames won't get as good of an oppertunity to make a run as now and they won't have as much interest as this summer. Now is the time to make a run IMO.

Going for "better" isn't good enough. Right now, they should be looking at the "best."

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08-26-2005, 06:15 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Phanuthier
The Flames arn't looking to be "much better than many teams in the league." IMO, the Flames should be making a run for the cup. The Flames won't get as good of an oppertunity to make a run as now and they won't have as much interest as this summer. Now is the time to make a run IMO.

Going for "better" isn't good enough. Right now, they should be looking at the "best."
Right now they need to be competitive. Right now they DO NOT have to be the best. Come trade deadline, that is when you add to your team to truly take your team to the next step. The Flames have already betetr themselves this offseason, there is little chance that ANy team will have traded/put together there "cup team" before the season even starts. Right now the Flames are better than many teams and hopefulyl coem trade deadline, they become one of the best.

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08-26-2005, 06:34 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Right now they need to be competitive. Right now they DO NOT have to be the best. Come trade deadline, that is when you add to your team to truly take your team to the next step. The Flames have already betetr themselves this offseason, there is little chance that ANy team will have traded/put together there "cup team" before the season even starts. Right now the Flames are better than many teams and hopefulyl coem trade deadline, they become one of the best.
the flames are in a great position. imo you need a backup better than Sauve, and certainly need a top 6 forward, but on paper at least the squad is no worse than the one that got you to the SC finals.

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08-26-2005, 06:37 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Rowley Birkin
the flames are in a great position. imo you need a backup better than Sauve, and certainly need a top 6 forward, but on paper at least the squad is no worse than the one that got you to the SC finals.
I agree. I don't think Sutter will make a move for a top 6 forward or a backup until some actual season games are played or at least preseason (camp as well). Unless there is a deal, where the Flames rob a team big time, I don't see any changes.

The Flames top 6 is fine at the moment (Iginla, Langkow, Amonte,Simon). The big thing about the Flames top 6 having two scoring lines will rest with Rhino and if he can stay healthy. If Rhino stays injury free, IMO he is the big darkhorse upfront for the Flames.

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08-26-2005, 08:36 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
Because Lydman wouldn't be a No 5, he would be a No 4 (doesn't sound like a big difference, but will be explaiend).

The difference between keeping Lydman or not would have been directly related to Phaneuf's chances on the team. Basically, the option was Lydman at 1.9 or Phaneuf at ~1. For 900k, you could have a steady defenseman who can play the No 4 position, but can also step up to the top 2 in case of injury - which is bound to happen. You could also have Dion Phaneuf groom his game in the minors as well.

Instead, should any of Warraner, Regehr, Leopold or Hamrlik go down, Ference is suddenly pushed into the top 4. Ok, no biggie. Next up the depth chart? A rookie in Phaneuf. After that? Steve Montador. Not to mention the depth gets really sketchy afer Montador, with Ritchie Regehr probably being the No 8 defenseman.
I think the luxury of having $1.9 million in the #4/5 spot as insurance is something he can part with giving the overall depth and capabilities of the Flames other defensemen. It also gives him the ability to have some flexibility in case of injury or if he does try to bolster a workmanlike group a forwards with someone featuring a bit more goalscoring ability when the time is right (ie. after the New Year).

Be that as it may, isn't it a heckuva thing to be able to debate the merits of the Flames being 4, 5, or 6 quality deep on the blueline?

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