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Habs don't need 4th line goons...

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Old
06-16-2011, 09:14 PM
  #51
Bodacious
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Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
A guy like Weber? Who alternates in Defence too?

This is why I wanna have Desharnais on the 3rd line with Eller and Kostityn. The lil' devil has too much talent to be wasted on what could be a conservative 4th line. Plus, I believe he would be a great addition to the relatively heavy duo. 2 playmakers, 2 talented forward, 1 highly skilled but relatively.. mentally challenged when things don't turn his way.

I believe success can come from our 3rd and 4th line, supported by an offence-oriented blueline. If we achieve that, we only need a relatively better punch from our Top-6, and that's going to happen very easily with Patch in the lineup, Gomez having a marginally better season (I believe he will bounce back).

Gomez merely had to have 10 more goals, he would still had a sub-par year, but it would have made a helluva difference through the entire season.

So... who do we need on the 4th line? I nominate Weber, as a 7th defensemen too. Maybe PP/PK specialist.
A dman is the ideal 4th line winger if he knows how to play a forward position. The PP specialist can be a problem if they are not defensively responsible. the line still has to work as a regular line, but their focus is to disrupt the other team instead of scoring goals. Depending on regular offense from a 4th line is a failing proposition - you need sufficient scoring from the other lines. Another key is having smart players that know their roles and play based on where they are deployed - example if you are on the 4th line, your job is to disrupt the other team, not try and dangle the defense. If that forward is moved to the 2nd line - then puck possession is required.

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Old
06-16-2011, 09:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Although to be fair, Thorton's line does help Boston. But more in the sense that they are much better than average fourth line at actually playing hockey.
The average fourth line must be complete crap then.

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06-16-2011, 09:16 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The average fourth line must be complete crap then.
Its almost like they're fringe NHLers or something.

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06-16-2011, 09:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
Mathman - I guess you didn't watch the game closely last night. In the 1st 5 min. of the game the Canucks were taking it Bruins, except when Julien put the 4th line out. All of a sudden the puck was in the Vancouver end and the D was getting punished. Vineault put the twins out against them and they spent a shift in their own end with their faces pressed up against the glass. After that the twins never were put out against the 4th line. Julien had no fear to roll them out on a regular shift.
Funny, because according to the official icetime sheets for Game 7, the twins didn't share the ice with Thornton-Campbell-Paille until at the 14th minute. Except for a few seconds on what looks like a shift change. And they had a couple of shifts face-to-face after that.

Here's a site that shows it in a handy shift chart graph:
http://www.timeonice.com/default.htm...0417&submit=Go

I guess the official scorers should have watched the game more closely, too...


Last edited by MathMan: 06-16-2011 at 09:40 PM.
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06-16-2011, 09:48 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Yes, I'm sure it really totally intimidated Luongo. Because, as I'm sure you've noticed, Luongo goaling below replacement level was the key factor in the series.

As for the intimidation factor of Thornton, I find the notion hilarious. If you're asking why the Sedins didn't score, well, there's a guy who won a Conn Smythe for a reason.

Hardnosed, mean and physical hockey has been gone for so long from Montreal that a lot of people have forgotten what it used to be like in the good ole days.

Boston gave us a glimpse of what the Cup winning Habs looked like.

Thornton did not need to even look at Luongo. That was not his purpose. His (line's) job was to simply soften up the Canucks Dmen. Bieksa was intentionally targeted. So was Ehrhoff. And their play reflected it. Hell, even Cloude admitted to our buddy Pierre McGuire that he was specifically targeting the Canuck DMen.

Boston's 4th line was not out there to score goals. They were out there doing what 4th lines are supposed to do..........hit people and generate energy. Why else did Julien send Thornton's line out there after EVERY goal? To score another goal? No, to keep the energy level up.

I am a believer in old school tough aggressive hockey. The Bruins pulled that style of play off perfectly. Sadly, I think that the Canadiens management believes the same as you do.

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Old
06-16-2011, 09:53 PM
  #56
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And for the record, we do not need goons on this team. Goons like LaRaque are worthless.

Instead, we need tough players that will not hurt the team but still stand up for their teammates like Eager, Konopka or Rupp. And it wouldnt hurt to have a tough DMan on the team like Engelland, McQuaid or Carkner.

Wishful thinking...............

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Old
06-16-2011, 09:56 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
A guy like Weber? Who alternates in Defence too?

This is why I wanna have Desharnais on the 3rd line with Eller and Kostityn. The lil' devil has too much talent to be wasted on what could be a conservative 4th line. Plus, I believe he would be a great addition to the relatively heavy duo. 2 playmakers, 2 talented forward, 1 highly skilled but relatively.. mentally challenged when things don't turn his way.

So... who do we need on the 4th line? I nominate Weber, as a 7th defensemen too. Maybe PP/PK specialist.
If Gauthier doesn't sign another dman and keep Spacek I would like to see te Habs can get two quality 3rd-line wingers to flank Eller (or Jagr bumping Kostitsyn down and getting another 3rd-line winger)

Darche-Desharnais-Moen would be a very nice 4th-line with Desharnais and Moen contributing on special teams (PP & PK for Desharnais if last season is any indication) and Darche being a pretty good even-strength player in his own right.

The Habs had 5 top-6 forwards for most of the year while Moen and Darche often played in a top-9 or even top-6 role. If you could get higher-quality players to bump those two down to the 4th-line the Habs would be in very good shape when the lineup is healthy or when injuries inevitably take their toll.

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06-16-2011, 10:20 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Funny, because according to the official icetime sheets for Game 7, the twins didn't share the ice with Thornton-Campbell-Paille until at the 14th minute. Except for a few seconds on what looks like a shift change. And they had a couple of shifts face-to-face after that.

Here's a site that shows it in a handy shift chart graph:
http://www.timeonice.com/default.htm...0417&submit=Go

I guess the official scorers should have watched the game more closely, too...
The point is that the 4th line changed the momentum of the game and that the Bruins had no match-up fear against the top lines - by the shift chart it's clear the opportunity to match #1 against #4 was there but Vancouver didn't want that matchup.

The objective is to create a line that will work to your advantage and is not a dumping ground for spare parts.

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06-16-2011, 10:49 PM
  #59
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Did people watch the habs play over the past couple of seasons...other teams grinders and tough guys running our players with no retribution and or consequence? ...I don't think we need goons either but we need some size, sandpaper and balls filling out our 3rd and 4th line...Moen, White...they are great don't get me wrong but they don't strike fear in the opposition really? I would love a guy like Brandon Prust and or Clarkson in New Jersey both can play the game and pop in the odd goal!

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Old
06-16-2011, 11:26 PM
  #60
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I don't really see how a tough fourth liner would do anything good to be honest. Our guys that need protection are on the top two lines. If they get beat up, it means the other team's top lines are bigger/stronger/tougher. If you send your fourth line to pass some kind of message, it will be useless because your fourth line likely won't match up against the top two lines. What we need is what is tough to acquire; a gritty, big and talented first/second line player.

Might as well keep dreaming, though.

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Old
06-16-2011, 11:27 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
The objective is to create a line that will work to your advantage and is not a dumping ground for spare parts.
Montreal's fourth line wasn't a dumping ground, it was perfectly capable of outplaying other fourth lines and had special team specialists to boot.

I'd rather have a guy like Desharnais on my fourth line than anything the Bruins have on theirs. Mind you, before long Desharnais might be off the fourth line... which I guess is part of my point.

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06-17-2011, 12:19 AM
  #62
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We don't need scary 4th liners...

Never mind that Shawn Thornton was one of the turning point of the Bos-Van series.

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06-17-2011, 01:35 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Drunk World Order View Post
Did people watch the habs play over the past couple of seasons...other teams grinders and tough guys running our players with no retribution and or consequence? ...I don't think we need goons either but we need some size, sandpaper and balls filling out our 3rd and 4th line...Moen, White...they are great don't get me wrong but they don't strike fear in the opposition really? I would love a guy like Brandon Prust and or Clarkson in New Jersey both can play the game and pop in the odd goal!
And a bit more toughness on the top six, can we get AK to play angry?

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Old
06-17-2011, 01:35 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
We don't need scary 4th liners...

Never mind that Shawn Thornton was one of the turning point of the Bos-Van series.
I thought the turning point was Luongo not stopping any pucks in Boston, he was horrendous, he never gave his team a chance to win on the road.

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06-17-2011, 06:34 AM
  #65
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I want everyone to remember that with the Bruins' victory, goons and tough guys will be in high demand in the NHL, expect to pay a Premium on the Pound.

Many teams will probably get heavier and think that's the magical solution. I think it'll favor urs, 'cause if there is a team that know how to handle a big team with a complex, it's the Habs.

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06-17-2011, 06:37 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
I want everyone to remember that with the Bruins' victory, goons and tough guys will be in high demand in the NHL, expect to pay a Premium on the Pound.

Many teams will probably get heavier and think that's the magical solution. I think it'll favor urs, 'cause if there is a team that know how to handle a big team with a complex, it's the Habs.
5'9" skill players also I guess, most of their forwards are small.

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06-17-2011, 07:21 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by habsleafs4life View Post
I agree! Like I said in another thread, we need big, fairly speedy top 6 forwards (already have one in Patches) who can throw good clean hits. I really hope that teams aren't going to be following the big, bad Bruins formula. IMO that would make for a really boring, despicable NHL.
Boring my foot.... I rarely see people yawning right after a big hit or during a fight....

You know what's boring? When you lose 3-1 in the middle of the 2nd period and the other team is still playing the agressor because nobody on our ******** team can create other a spark other then diving on the ice and hoping for a pp chance, that's boring!

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06-17-2011, 07:57 AM
  #68
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I have to agree with anyone saying this quite easily could have been a post in the GM thread, but I have to agree with the OP. We don't need guys like that.

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06-17-2011, 08:08 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I have to agree with anyone saying this quite easily could have been a post in the GM thread, but I have to agree with the OP. We don't need guys like that.
With it being the off-season, my inclination is to let a few separate themes of GM-thread-like material co-exist. The GM thread is pretty far-reaching and stuff can get lost in there and focus lost. But that's just me. No complaints if another mod wants to merge things.

FWIW.

I also vote for a No Tough Guys policy. Just get Good Players. Preferably good fast ones who can skate circles around any teams that do choose to try to model themselves after the Bruins. Because I know the NHL is going to go back to PP-fest hockey and call everything again, and only one team has Tim Thomas, and Thomas isn't getting any younger himself.

If there's a Good Player who is also tough and can skate, then no objections whatsoever to getting that complete package. Just saying that I prioritize Good above Tough, and Skating above Tough too.

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06-17-2011, 08:11 AM
  #70
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We can win with small players like Cams,Plecs,Gionta,Gomez on the top 2 lines but we have to have someone with size on those lines to help them. Patches will help the Gomez line and if we can't find a winger that will bring some grit and scoring to play on Plec line someone like(Cole,Kopecky,Laich) Kostitsyn will stay on that line. I would like to see Kostitsyn play on the third line with Eller. As for filling the third line I think a guy like ( Dupuis,Upshall,Torros) would fit in there or give Pouliot another chance but if you want that line to score some goals you can't be playing Moen Pyatt or White on that line. The fourth line should have White Moen and 1 of the following guys should be signed Rupp,Winchester,Konopka or Eager. This would go a long way in helping the Habs in the 82 game season as well as the playoffs. You can't always be the team taking all the hits and never giving any out that is why we have had so many injuries and you can;t have your best players like Subban, Cams Plec getting punched in the face 5 times a game or guys whacking at Price on every play.

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06-17-2011, 08:13 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Boring my foot.... I rarely see people yawning right after a big hit or during a fight....

You know what's boring? When you lose 3-1 in the middle of the 2nd period and the other team is still playing the agressor because nobody on our ******** team can create other a spark other then diving on the ice and hoping for a pp chance, that's boring!
YOU ARE RIGHT

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06-17-2011, 08:15 AM
  #72
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Boston won the playoffs because of the hockey guys. Thomas, Bergeron, Brad "the Weasel" Marchand, Jacobs etc. Not because of the 4th line goons.

The Broad Street Bullies of old were winning not (only) because of their goons but mostly because they had top skilled players.

Want a skillless goon built team ?

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06-17-2011, 08:42 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
With it being the off-season, my inclination is to let a few separate themes of GM-thread-like material co-exist. The GM thread is pretty far-reaching and stuff can get lost in there and focus lost. But that's just me. No complaints if another mod wants to merge things.

FWIW.

I also vote for a No Tough Guys policy. Just get Good Players. Preferably good fast ones who can skate circles around any teams that do choose to try to model themselves after the Bruins. Because I know the NHL is going to go back to PP-fest hockey and call everything again, and only one team has Tim Thomas, and Thomas isn't getting any younger himself.

If there's a Good Player who is also tough and can skate, then no objections whatsoever to getting that complete package. Just saying that I prioritize Good above Tough, and Skating above Tough too.
That's fine by me. I really don't care just thought it seemed like a no-brainer. Sometimes I honestly find it easier when there are multiple threads having the sub-genre's discussed

I agree with your sentiments above. I don't want another Georges (Not to be confused with Gorges)


Last edited by neofury*: 06-17-2011 at 08:48 AM.
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Old
06-17-2011, 08:43 AM
  #74
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Never mind that Shawn Thornton was one of the turning point of the Bos-Van series.
Don Cherry and the CBC comment brigade insisting on this does not make it true.

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Old
06-17-2011, 08:44 AM
  #75
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Its time to change the makeup of this team. They are far to easy to play against. Add Steve MacIntyre to the 4th line and add Matt Carkner to the D corps. The Habs small guys would all grow 6 inches, and play like it, if that happened.

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