Yeah, I'd be fine with all of that. I just hate the concept of paying a goalie lots of money just to have a goalie. Yeah, we need a goalie, but let's not go overboard.
If you pay Bryz too much it could be like selling your house to buy a Ferrari. Hurray, you've got a Ferrari! But now you have to live in it.
You still haven't offered up an alternative goaltending option, if not 'over paying' for Bryz, then what is your alternative?
You've said who you would trade etc, but haven't offered up a viable goaltending alternative?
It's easy to point out the problems, but where are the solutions?
when the bruins offered thomas for carter, flyers didnt bite, the bruins win the cup thanks to the MVP play of thomas, I hope the flyers dont miss the bryzgalov bus.
when the bruins offered thomas for carter, flyers didnt bite, the bruins win the cup thanks to the MVP play of thomas, I hope the flyers dont miss the bryzgalov bus.
For real? Did you see how Tim Thomas played last season? Would you trade Jeff Carter for Mike Modano? Modano is a Hall of Famer!
For real? Did you see how Tim Thomas played last season? Would you trade Jeff Carter for Mike Modano? Modano is a Hall of Famer!
Thomas wasn't awful in 09-10, he just wasn't the Vezina caliber guy he was in 08-09 or this year, Rask put up slightly better stats, and TT got hurt. I don't remember Carter ever being the one on the table then anyway, and hindsight is 20/20 right. If I could go back in time, sure. But in the same position 100 times, no way do I pull the trigger on that contract.
when the bruins offered thomas for carter, flyers didnt bite, the bruins win the cup thanks to the MVP play of thomas, I hope the flyers dont miss the bryzgalov bus.
How about we don't look at it in hindsight. Would you trade a 24 year old former 40 goal scorer for a 36 year old goalie who was supplanted by a rookie, and has a hip issue?
You still haven't offered up an alternative goaltending option, if not 'over paying' for Bryz, then what is your alternative?
You've said who you would trade etc, but haven't offered up a viable goaltending alternative?
It's easy to point out the problems, but where are the solutions?
Vokoun, or just stick with Bob and pray he does well. Failing to win because you've costed yourself important players to get a goalie is just as dumb as failing to win because you don't have a goalie. At that point you should just look to the future.
I'm not saying "DONT GET A GOALIE." I'm just saying that grossly overpaying for one just for the hell of it isn't a good idea. A responsible GM could pull it off, but Holmgren isn't a responsible GM (We'd have gotten a goalie last year if he was). The problem is, he overpays everyone.
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Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Vokoun, or just stick with Bob and pray he does well. Failing to win because you've costed yourself important players to get a goalie is just as dumb as failing to win because you don't have a goalie. At that point you should just look to the future.
I'm not saying "DONT GET A GOALIE." I'm just saying that grossly overpaying for one just for the hell of it isn't a good idea. A responsible GM could pull it off, but Holmgren isn't a responsible GM (We'd have gotten a goalie last year if he was). The problem is, he overpays everyone.
Totally understand your concerns, and they're completely logical.
I don't like the idea of rolling with Bob. He's a few years away from being the real deal, and in the meantime we continue to get hosed when it counts.
Homer is mental with these contracts, so it is a worry. But so is the idea of rolling with Bob & a has-been or never will be as a backup.
I understand you're worried about gutting the core, but I think with the right moves (I appreciate this may be alien to Homer) we can keep what is worth keeping of the core AND have Bryz.
Let's face it, whilst the goalies were our obvious problem in the playoffs last year, our core let us down BIG time after the all-star break. So perhaps moving a few will give them the wake up they need, because they were limp in the playoffs.
Vokoun, or just stick with Bob and pray he does well. Failing to win because you've costed yourself important players to get a goalie is just as dumb as failing to win because you don't have a goalie. At that point you should just look to the future.
I'm not saying "DONT GET A GOALIE." I'm just saying that grossly overpaying for one just for the hell of it isn't a good idea. A responsible GM could pull it off, but Holmgren isn't a responsible GM (We'd have gotten a goalie last year if he was). The problem is, he overpays everyone.
Thoughts?
Quote:
One of the most common arguments against signing Ilya Bryzgalov to a contract that will carry a heavy cap hit is that spending too heavily on goaltending cuts so deeply into a club's all-around depth that it cannot win the Stanley Cup. I decided to put that idea to the test.
Let's suppose that the salary cap next season is $62.4 million and the Flyers were to pay Bryzgalov $6 million against the cap, plus $1.75 million to Sergei Bobrovsky. Let's also assume that the two goalies are healthy all year and no callups are necessary and that the Flyers spend to the cap max by the end of the year.
The goalie salaries would amount to 12.4% of the Flyers' cap limit. If Philly were to go on to win the Cup. that salary percentage would be right near the top of any team to win a Cup since the implementation of the salary cap. However, if Bryzgalov were to carry a cap hit of $5 million via a longer-term contract, the percentage would drop to 10.8% of the cap ceiling, and would not be all that outrageous. Even at a $5.5 million cap it, if the team remains reasonably healthy and performs to expectations-- two pretty big "ifs" -- the goalie salaries needn't strangle the team.
I took a look at all of the Stanley Cup winners in the cap era to see how much the championship club paid their goaltenders. I searched first for full-team data (via capgeek.com and other sources), which enables you not only to see how closely a team spent to the salary cap ceiling but also to break down the percentages of the payroll that a team devoted to its goalies, defense and forwards.
When full-team cap data was available, I broke down the percentage spent on goaltending. When I couldn't find it, I listed only goalie salaries.
Vokoun, or just stick with Bob and pray he does well. Failing to win because you've costed yourself important players to get a goalie is just as dumb as failing to win because you don't have a goalie. At that point you should just look to the future.
I'm not saying "DONT GET A GOALIE." I'm just saying that grossly overpaying for one just for the hell of it isn't a good idea. A responsible GM could pull it off, but Holmgren isn't a responsible GM (We'd have gotten a goalie last year if he was). The problem is, he overpays everyone.
He overpays everyone? Well, except for Richards, Carter, Pronger, Giroux, Coburn, Hartnell, Briere, Timonen, Bobrovsky, O'Donnell, Boucher, Carcillo, Powe, Betts, Nodl, Zherdev. You can argue that he slightly overpaid Shelley, but that's about it.
And whether he's 'responsible' is your opinion only, and you are wrong.
He tried to upgrade the goaltending last year, without breaking up the core of team. He got advance rights to negotiate with Nabokov and Turco but they failed to realize what a good offer the Flyers were making and screwed themselves. Faced with a bunch of nobodies like Mason or Ellis he stuck with Leighton and signed Bobrovsky.
His priority last year was to get rid of Gagne and add a 5th great Dman - because what really cost us the Cup was that our Top 4 was too run down by the finals.
To do so, he acquired the rights to Hamhuis, tried to get the advance rights to Michalek (Phx was still hoping to re-up him), and acquired Meszaros in what was one of the best trades of the year in the entire league, and signed O'Donnell cheap when everyone said he would never leave the west coast.
Pronger and Timonen aren't getting younger, and even Briere had nothing left by the Boston series. The Flyers can't afford to look to the future anymore.
They will sign Bryzgalov - after boldly getting his right. And everyone will be amazed at the reasonable cap hit, after which he'll sort out how he wants the team to look in front of him and make the appropriate deals at the draft.
That's what a responsible GM does and we're lucky we have one - we're going to be cheering for a great team, and Cup contender, again next year.
Yes, and Upshall has never scored 20 goals or put up more then 40 pts.
And Upshall's best move is to charge into the corner, miss the hit so as to avoid actual contact, and slam his stick on the boards to make a big noise like he actually did something, when, as usual, he didnt'.
We'll know on draft day. If they trade steeg or carle for picks, then you know they have a handshake with bryz. Unless homer wants to negotiate with a gun to his head again
He overpays everyone? Well, except for Richards, Carter, Pronger, Giroux, Coburn, Hartnell, Briere, Timonen, Bobrovsky, O'Donnell, Boucher, Carcillo, Powe, Betts, Nodl, Zherdev. You can argue that he slightly overpaid Shelley, but that's about it.
And whether he's 'responsible' is your opinion only, and you are wrong.
He tried to upgrade the goaltending last year, without breaking up the core of team. He got advance rights to negotiate with Nabokov and Turco but they failed to realize what a good offer the Flyers were making and screwed themselves. Faced with a bunch of nobodies like Mason or Ellis he stuck with Leighton and signed Bobrovsky.
His priority last year was to get rid of Gagne and add a 5th great Dman - because what really cost us the Cup was that our Top 4 was too run down by the finals.
To do so, he acquired the rights to Hamhuis, tried to get the advance rights to Michalek (Phx was still hoping to re-up him), and acquired Meszaros in what was one of the best trades of the year in the entire league, and signed O'Donnell cheap when everyone said he would never leave the west coast.
Pronger and Timonen aren't getting younger, and even Briere had nothing left by the Boston series. The Flyers can't afford to look to the future anymore.
They will sign Bryzgalov - after boldly getting his right. And everyone will be amazed at the reasonable cap hit, after which he'll sort out how he wants the team to look in front of him and make the appropriate deals at the draft.
That's what a responsible GM does and we're lucky we have one - we're going to be cheering for a great team, and Cup contender, again next year.
Stringing together so many names doesn't mask those who were overpaid, Larry. Briere, Timonen and Hartnell, at the time they were signed, were huge contracts. You can argue Hartnell's is in line with PFs of equal output, but that wasn't the case when he signed. Richards and Carter have reasonable cap hits, but are signed loooong term, which is always a risk. The same goes for Pronger, which is a double risk because he's on a 35+ contract.
And "slightly" overpaid Shelley? Do you really believe that? Shelley got way too much for too long. My opinion, of course, but the cap issues that already existed only accentuated how much cap dead space was allotted to Shelley.
Re: goaltending last off-season. I agree with your assessment of Nabokov, who shot himself in the foot with a cruise missile. But the Turco situation, to me, is still up in the air about how much was offered and who balked when. I will argue that Holmgren couldn't have done worse signing "nobodies" like Mason or Ellis to the same amount, or less, than what he handed over to Leighton. And at that moment in time, I contend that Bob was neither here nor there in the club's immediate goaltending solution. It was only great luck on Holmgren's part that Bob emerged the way he did, or this season would have been much, much uglier.
Re: Meszaros. I think most would have been ready to anoint the deal as a "win" if it had been Gagné for Mesz straight up. Adding the 2nd was an irritant, but taking back $1.7 mil of Matt (Can't) Walker was plain dumb.
I am very grateful that this team continues to be competitive, and Paul Holmgren has succeeded in bringing in strong talent. However, the opportunities to make this franchise strong from top to bottom have been overlooked in several instances, and that is a concern for both right away and the long term.
My thoughts are that it reinforces what I'm saying. 5.5-6? sure. More than that? No. Teams that won were spending 10ish % on goaltending. How many teams have won spending 12 percent? Anaheim...and they had both Pronger and Niedermeyer, which is a pretty big deal...and CHicago's numbers are skewed because Huet had a stupid contract that ended up being a massive albatross. Every situation is unique, and I don't believe ours is conducive to spending an insane amount on a goalie. The player we'd have to drop to fit in the extra million if we overpay grossly just for the sake of having a goalie is one we'd probably miss, and could damage the team overall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44
He overpays everyone? Well, except for Richards, Carter, Pronger, Giroux, Coburn, Hartnell, Briere, Timonen, Bobrovsky, O'Donnell, Boucher, Carcillo, Powe, Betts, Nodl, Zherdev. You can argue that he slightly overpaid Shelley, but that's about it.
And whether he's 'responsible' is your opinion only, and you are wrong.
He tried to upgrade the goaltending last year, without breaking up the core of team. He got advance rights to negotiate with Nabokov and Turco but they failed to realize what a good offer the Flyers were making and screwed themselves. Faced with a bunch of nobodies like Mason or Ellis he stuck with Leighton and signed Bobrovsky.
His priority last year was to get rid of Gagne and add a 5th great Dman - because what really cost us the Cup was that our Top 4 was too run down by the finals.
To do so, he acquired the rights to Hamhuis, tried to get the advance rights to Michalek (Phx was still hoping to re-up him), and acquired Meszaros in what was one of the best trades of the year in the entire league, and signed O'Donnell cheap when everyone said he would never leave the west coast.
Pronger and Timonen aren't getting younger, and even Briere had nothing left by the Boston series. The Flyers can't afford to look to the future anymore.
They will sign Bryzgalov - after boldly getting his right. And everyone will be amazed at the reasonable cap hit, after which he'll sort out how he wants the team to look in front of him and make the appropriate deals at the draft.
That's what a responsible GM does and we're lucky we have one - we're going to be cheering for a great team, and Cup contender, again next year.
I'm not talking about Bryz at 5-6 mil as a cap hit. I'm talking about signing him for 6-7 mil, which some people have said we should do just so we can have a goalie. I think that's unwise. Homer doesn't overpay as badly as Sather, but he is guilty of it. And with our cap situation, plugging in a 6.5-7 mil cap hit and then factoring in random overpayments like Shelley, Hartnell, and Leighton (among the others who are no longer with us) and we begin running into trouble when it comes time to resign players or even make callups.
As for Homer being responsible, his asset management, last years goaltending "solution", and overall cap management suggests otherwise. I know you're going to disagree because you love Homer and think he never does anything wrong.
Again, to clarify, before anybody else jumps down my throat: We need a goalie. Paying 6.5 mil or more JUST to have one isn't a good idea.. I'm not saying "Don't get a goalie" and I think that 5-6 mil is something this team can fit. More than that, not so much.
THN saying Bryz is looking for 5 years $27 million. I don't have a link because I'm on my phone @ work, but it's in the Rumor Roundup. Just a rumor obviously, but I like the sound of that contract.
I get what you are saying Beef. i think tho the shorter the term the higher the cap hit we are going to have to deal with, the longer the term the lower cap hit. Some may view that as a Catch 22. I am hoping we have a middle ground somewhere. I dont know If I want to see a 8 year deal even at 5 per.
A 5 year deal at 5.5 per wouldnt be bad.
THN saying Bryz is looking for 5 years $27 million. I don't have a link because I'm on my phone @ work, but it's in the Rumor Roundup. Just a rumor obviously, but I like the sound of that contract.
Again, to clarify, before anybody else jumps down my throat: We need a goalie. Paying 6.5 mil or more JUST to have one isn't a good idea.. I'm not saying "Don't get a goalie" and I think that 5-6 mil is something this team can fit. More than that, not so much.
Wait...so you're saying you DON'T want to be the Rangers? I don't understand your logic.
I get what you are saying Beef. i think tho the shorter the term the higher the cap hit we are going to have to deal with, the longer the term the lower cap hit. Some may view that as a Catch 22. I am hoping we have a middle ground somewhere. I dont know If I want to see a 8 year deal even at 5 per.
A 5 year deal at 5.5 per wouldnt be bad.
Not that I have anything close to sources, but my quasi-educated guess is that the best we could hope for is 5 years @ $5.75 mil or 6 years @ $5.5 mil.
My thoughts are that it reinforces what I'm saying. 5.5-6? sure. More than that? No. Teams that won were spending 10ish % on goaltending. How many teams have won spending 12 percent? Anaheim...and they had both Pronger and Niedermeyer, which is a pretty big deal...and CHicago's numbers are skewed because Huet had a stupid contract that ended up being a massive albatross. Every situation is unique, and I don't believe ours is conducive to spending an insane amount on a goalie. The player we'd have to drop to fit in the extra million if we overpay grossly just for the sake of having a goalie is one we'd probably miss, and could damage the team overall.
I'm not talking about Bryz at 5-6 mil as a cap hit. I'm talking about signing him for 6-7 mil, which some people have said we should do just so we can have a goalie. I think that's unwise. Homer doesn't overpay as badly as Sather, but he is guilty of it. And with our cap situation, plugging in a 6.5-7 mil cap hit and then factoring in random overpayments like Shelley, Hartnell, and Leighton (among the others who are no longer with us) and we begin running into trouble when it comes time to resign players or even make callups.
As for Homer being responsible, his asset management, last years goaltending "solution", and overall cap management suggests otherwise. I know you're going to disagree because you love Homer and think he never does anything wrong.
Again, to clarify, before anybody else jumps down my throat: We need a goalie. Paying 6.5 mil or more JUST to have one isn't a good idea.. I'm not saying "Don't get a goalie" and I think that 5-6 mil is something this team can fit. More than that, not so much.
I doubt very much the Flyers will give him more than 6M..so I wouldn't be too worried but then again...
