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Old
06-16-2011, 06:48 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Is this a bad time to point out someone playing third for the Athletics and batting .417/.500/.583 since being called up from the minors?
No. I still can't believe that trade happened. I mean, I can, I guess. After all, we needed to get that non-closing, non-setup, left-handed relief pitcher when we already had 3 of them on the roster. He was of course an absolute necessity. Thank god we got him.

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06-16-2011, 08:30 PM
  #977
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Inge needs to have been playing at an All-Star level in order to deserve his job back? He only had one quality offensive season? What? I don't get the Inge hate. He's more like Filppula than Draper to me. A good player who people think should be an All-Star for some reason.

Worth is a middle infielder and a good defensive sub for those positions. He's not much more and doesn't really know what he's doing at third base though.

Kelly is 31, not really a "young player." Moreover, I haven't seen anything from him to indicate he should keep the starting 3B job over Inge. For all of Inge's faults at the plate, Kelly has more. And he's nowhere near the fielder or baserunner. Leyland has a love affair with him because he loves scrappy, hard-working, marginal players with little talent. But that's the problem with Kelly, all he is is a scrappy, hard-working, marginal player with little talent.

The sooner Inge is back and Kelly is back on the bench, the better.



Career average of .236 and he strikes out 1 out of every 3.9 at bats...need I say more? And it didn't help that his predecessors, Dean Palmer and Travis Fryman mop the floor with him with their hitting ability. Third base is supposed to be power position in your lineup. A home run for every 32 at bats doesn't cut it. He's been a trooper through the awful years with this team but I'm counting down the days until Nick Castellanos is Major League ready.

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06-16-2011, 08:57 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
No. I still can't believe that trade happened. I mean, I can, I guess. After all, we needed to get that non-closing, non-setup, left-handed relief pitcher when we already had 3 of them on the roster. He was of course an absolute necessity. Thank god we got him.
Especially when the A's had another reliever about to be activated and said lefty was likely to be DFAed anyway...

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Career average of .236 and he strikes out 1 out of every 3.9 at bats...need I say more? And it didn't help that his predecessors, Dean Palmer and Travis Fryman mop the floor with him with their hitting ability. Third base is supposed to be power position in your lineup. A home run for every 32 at bats doesn't cut it. He's been a trooper through the awful years with this team but I'm counting down the days until Nick Castellanos is Major League ready.
You're not alone. That kid pans out and we should be set at third base for years.

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06-16-2011, 10:32 PM
  #979
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Career average of .236 and he strikes out 1 out of every 3.9 at bats...need I say more?
Yes, that needs a lot of context. And when you are talking about replacing him with Worth or Kelly, hell yes, and you need a lot more context.

Inge isn't an all-star and he isn't a premier 3B. He's a good 3B though. He's got some decent power (both gap and HR) in his bat, is a premier fielder, and a very under-rated baserunner. Good for the clubhouse by all accounts as well. Overall, value-wise, I'd put him in the middle of the pack. He certainly offers more value than Don Kelly and Danny Worth.


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Third base is supposed to be power position in your lineup.
So is 1B, DH, and the corner outfield spots, but very few teams ever have 4 power hitters, let alone 5 with one in each of those spots. I'd prefer to have Evan Longoria too, but there are only so many of those guys to go around. And, again, if we are talking about him being replaced by Don Kelly or Danny Worth, those guys have even less power, so the power comment doesn't really make sense.


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I'm counting down the days until Nick Castellanos is Major League ready.
Really hoping that kid pans out. Would be nice to have a homegrown premier 3B.

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06-17-2011, 09:05 AM
  #980
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Inge needs to have been playing at an All-Star level in order to deserve his job back? He only had one quality offensive season? What? I don't get the Inge hate. He's more like Filppula than Draper to me. A good player who people think should be an All-Star for some reason.

Worth is a middle infielder and a good defensive sub for those positions. He's not much more and doesn't really know what he's doing at third base though.

Kelly is 31, not really a "young player." Moreover, I haven't seen anything from him to indicate he should keep the starting 3B job over Inge. For all of Inge's faults at the plate, Kelly has more. And he's nowhere near the fielder or baserunner. Leyland has a love affair with him because he loves scrappy, hard-working, marginal players with little talent. But that's the problem with Kelly, all he is is a scrappy, hard-working, marginal player with little talent.

The sooner Inge is back and Kelly is back on the bench, the better.
A couple years ago, I might have agreed with you on Inge. You put him in the 9 spot, he plays really good defense, he hits a dinger now and then. Whatever, that's fine.

Plainly put, however, he's been one of the worst players in baseball in 2011. He can't hit at all. His defense is gone - he's actually rated at -11 runs compared to the average defensive 3b this season.

And it doesn't show up in box scores anywhere, but did anyone else notice that he can't throw to 1b anymore? Even on routine grounders, he throws it straight at Cabrera's feet every time. Before Inge went on the DL, Cabrera was giving him the stink eye after every single throw because he's sick of digging out bad throws on routine plays. I don't blame him. When Inge comes back, keep an eye on that - you'll see what I mean if you haven't seen it yet.

He's been so bad this year that Don Kelly actually looks ok as a 3b. That's bad. I mean, epically bad.

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No. I still can't believe that trade happened. I mean, I can, I guess. After all, we needed to get that non-closing, non-setup, left-handed relief pitcher when we already had 3 of them on the roster. He was of course an absolute necessity. Thank god we got him.
DD had a raging clue on for that guy apparently, and the A's asked for Sizemore. Bang. Done.

I'm not crushed that Sizemore got dealt - he wasn't hitting, he wasn't playing good defense, and they have other 2b and 3b prospects coming up the pike that would have beaten him out anyway. Castellanos is going to take some time but they've got a young guy at Erie that's tearing it up at 3b and they have a bunch of tolerable-or-better 2bs that are either ready now or will be in the next year or so. 2b is the easiest position to find usable players - Nick Freaking Punto is still a major leaguer for chrissakes.

Everybody the Tigers trade to the A's has a little hot streak when they get there. Jack Hannahan. Jeff Larish. Sizemore. They all flame out. I'm not concerned that they've dealt away Joe Morgan or anything. Dude's 26. I'm over it.

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Yes, that needs a lot of context. And when you are talking about replacing him with Worth or Kelly, hell yes, and you need a lot more context.

Inge isn't an all-star and he isn't a premier 3B. He's a good 3B though. He's got some decent power (both gap and HR) in his bat, is a premier fielder, and a very under-rated baserunner. Good for the clubhouse by all accounts as well. Overall, value-wise, I'd put him in the middle of the pack. He certainly offers more value than Don Kelly and Danny Worth.
Kelly is garbage, I'm not going to argue on that one. Worth, we don't know. I don't mind seeing him play some more. He seems like a good glove guy that can find the gap now and then. Long-term, he looks like a useful utility/backup INF guy. Probably redundant when you already have Ramon Santiago.

Again, I think you're giving 2011 Inge credit for 2009-10 Inge's play. 2011 Inge is awful.

Baserunning? He has a career high of 9 steals in a season, and he's got 11 steals the last 4 years combined.

Premier fielder? Maybe in the past, but again, he rates as a huge minus defensively so far this year and he can't throw to first without two-hopping the ball.

Decent power? Again, maybe in the past, but in 2011 he's slugging .286. Rick Porcello is slugging .333. Hell, even Kelly is slugging .321 and he's awful. His power is gone.

Good clubhouse guy? Maybe. I don't know. That's one of the least important things as far as measuring a player's value though. As long as he's not Dmitri Young, I don't particularly care what he's like in the room. Especially when he's so awful on the field. And his tattoos are ridiculously stupid-looking.

He gets a lot of the same "Happy Scrappy Hero Pup" credit that Leyland gives Kelly. Neither one of them deserves it.


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06-17-2011, 09:54 AM
  #981
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He's been so bad this year that Don Kelly actually looks ok as a 3b. That's bad. I mean, epically bad.

DD had a raging clue on for that guy apparently, and the A's asked for Sizemore. Bang. Done.

I'm not crushed that Sizemore got dealt - he wasn't hitting, he wasn't playing good defense, and they have other 2b and 3b prospects coming up the pike that would have beaten him out anyway. Castellanos is going to take some time but they've got a young guy at Erie that's tearing it up at 3b and they have a bunch of tolerable-or-better 2bs that are either ready now or will be in the next year or so. 2b is the easiest position to find usable players - Nick Freaking Punto is still a major leaguer for chrissakes.

Everybody the Tigers trade to the A's has a little hot streak when they get there. Jack Hannahan. Jeff Larish. Sizemore. They all flame out. I'm not concerned that they've dealt away Joe Morgan or anything. Dude's 26. I'm over it.
I was crushed that we sold so low on him and for a guy that looked about to be available for nothing anyway. If you're going to deal him, fine, but that's really bad value. And considering we're now giving Don Kelly serious at-bats at third...ugh.

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06-17-2011, 10:06 AM
  #982
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Yeah, the Sizemore deal was a bit of a surprise in how little they got in return...all due respect to Mr. Purcey...but gone are the days of him being the 2B of the future. Young players are given a chance to make an impact when they come up.

I get irritated when they kept playing yo-yo with a guy like Clete Thomas when they looked like they were playing fairly well but send them down but come back up again later. I wonder if some of that has to do with arbitration rules...that tends to affect when a guy gets called up.

On the bright side, good to see Will Rhymes playing fairly well in Toledo...hitting .316 in 40 games. I wonder if we see him back up again at some point. Sometimes a demotion can do a world of good for a guy.

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06-17-2011, 12:01 PM
  #983
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A couple years ago, I might have agreed with you on Inge. You put him in the 9 spot, he plays really good defense, he hits a dinger now and then. Whatever, that's fine.

Plainly put, however, he's been one of the worst players in baseball in 2011. He can't hit at all. His defense is gone - he's actually rated at -11 runs compared to the average defensive 3b this season.

And it doesn't show up in box scores anywhere, but did anyone else notice that he can't throw to 1b anymore? Even on routine grounders, he throws it straight at Cabrera's feet every time. Before Inge went on the DL, Cabrera was giving him the stink eye after every single throw because he's sick of digging out bad throws on routine plays. I don't blame him. When Inge comes back, keep an eye on that - you'll see what I mean if you haven't seen it yet.

He's been so bad this year that Don Kelly actually looks ok as a 3b. That's bad. I mean, epically bad.
Inge is struggling this year, obviously. But I'm willing to give him some leeway since we're only halfway through June and he's apparently had mono for 2 months. I think it's too early to say his arm is gone or that he can't turn it around at the plate.

Defensively, the best metric is UZR, and Inge is on the plus side. He's currently ranked 12th in MLB, which is about 4-5 spots low for him, but still in the upper half. Simply put, his defense isn't "gone."


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DD had a raging clue on for that guy apparently, and the A's asked for Sizemore. Bang. Done.

I'm not crushed that Sizemore got dealt - he wasn't hitting, he wasn't playing good defense, and they have other 2b and 3b prospects coming up the pike that would have beaten him out anyway. Castellanos is going to take some time but they've got a young guy at Erie that's tearing it up at 3b and they have a bunch of tolerable-or-better 2bs that are either ready now or will be in the next year or so. 2b is the easiest position to find usable players - Nick Freaking Punto is still a major leaguer for chrissakes.

Everybody the Tigers trade to the A's has a little hot streak when they get there. Jack Hannahan. Jeff Larish. Sizemore. They all flame out. I'm not concerned that they've dealt away Joe Morgan or anything. Dude's 26. I'm over it.
I'm glad you're over it. I'm not. As Winger said, that trade was really bad value. Sizemore has some serious upside, and we gave it away for basically nothing.

Meanwhile, and this is where I disagree, the Tigers have very little in their farm system. A good 3B prospect who is years away and a meh 3B prospect who is at least a couple years away and currently over-achieving. Certainly no one who was definitely going to beat out Sizemore anytime soon, as you imply. Rhymes? Worth? Please, these are bench players. With Sizemore gone, the Tigers literally have no 2B prospects worth noting anymore. A couple scrappy, hard-working, marginal player with little talent, which Leyland is really excited about, I'm sure, but nothing for anyone else to be excited about. And they only have Don Kelly to plug into 3B.

The Sizemore trade was AWFUL.


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Baserunning? He has a career high of 9 steals in a season, and he's got 11 steals the last 4 years combined.
We've had this discussion before. Baserunning ≠ steals. It's one part of it. There are guys who swipe bags but are poor basebrunners. Inge is one of the smartest runners on the basepaths the Tigers have had in a while. The guy reads plays extremely fast and makes the most out of every situation, and beats tags with his slides that he has no business beating. And on top of that, he very rarely gets an outfield assist put on him. I can't remember the last time he got laser'd.


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Premier fielder? Maybe in the past, but again, he rates as a huge minus defensively so far this year and he can't throw to first without two-hopping the ball.
I don't know what metrics you are looking at, but the best defensive category has him on the plus side and in the top half.


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Decent power? Again, maybe in the past, but in 2011 he's slugging .286. Rick Porcello is slugging .333. Hell, even Kelly is slugging .321 and he's awful. His power is gone.
Is his power gone for good? If so, how do you know?


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Good clubhouse guy? Maybe. I don't know. That's one of the least important things as far as measuring a player's value though. As long as he's not Dmitri Young, I don't particularly care what he's like in the room. Especially when he's so awful on the field. And his tattoos are ridiculously stupid-looking.
You're going to diminish the importance of how good of a teammate a guy is to virtually nothing but then go on to point out how stupid his tattoos are? Jesus.

Inge is a good 3B who has struggled this year. Assuming he's done and anointing Don Kelly or Danny Worth as the starting 3B is stupid. You gotta give Inge a chance to come off the DL and perform. The alternative is worse. I want that premier 3B like everyone else, but the Tigers don't have him right now, and Inge is their best option.

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06-17-2011, 12:08 PM
  #984
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but gone are the days of him being the 2B of the future.
They are now, lol. Sizemore wasn't given a fair shot by Detroit. Don't know why, but he wasn't. It's too bad, because talent-wise, aside from Castellanos, he was the best prospect they had in terms of 2B and 3B.

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06-17-2011, 01:05 PM
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Inge is struggling this year, obviously. But I'm willing to give him some leeway since we're only halfway through June and he's apparently had mono for 2 months. I think it's too early to say his arm is gone or that he can't turn it around at the plate.

Defensively, the best metric is UZR, and Inge is on the plus side. He's currently ranked 12th in MLB, which is about 4-5 spots low for him, but still in the upper half. Simply put, his defense isn't "gone."
I don't know where you got your UZR numbers, but fangraphs has Inge's 2011 UZR at 0.3. That may technically be positive, but ahead of him at 3b are Longoria, Sandoval, Beltre, A-Roid, Uribe, Tejada, Callaspo, Nix, DON KELLY, Descalso, Morel, Hannahan, Roberts, Rolen, Mora, and Polanco. And that's only counting guys with 200+ innings (and Kelly), as there are another couple dozen guys ahead of Inge in UZR but with limited appearances. So that's 15 or 16 guys ahead of him, not 11.

If he were a guy hitting .300 or if he were having a 20 HR 100 RBI season, his defense would be acceptable. For a guy with no bat whatsoever, his defense is unacceptable. And that's over 52 games and 432 innings - basically a third of a season. How long do you need before you accept that he's not going to be playable again? 150 games? 300?

Quote:
I'm glad you're over it. I'm not. As Winger said, that trade was really bad value. Sizemore has some serious upside, and we gave it away for basically nothing.

Meanwhile, and this is where I disagree, the Tigers have very little in their farm system. A good 3B prospect who is years away and a meh 3B prospect who is at least a couple years away and currently over-achieving. Certainly no one who was definitely going to beat out Sizemore anytime soon, as you imply. Rhymes? Worth? Please, these are bench players. With Sizemore gone, the Tigers literally have no 2B prospects worth noting anymore. A couple scrappy, hard-working, marginal player with little talent, which Leyland is really excited about, I'm sure, but nothing for anyone else to be excited about. And they only have Don Kelly to plug into 3B.

The Sizemore trade was AWFUL.
They certainly didn't get top value for him, but DD wanted that reliever guy badly and he didn't place any value on Sizemore. Purcey has put up 8 scoreless innings, so he's looking pretty good. It's too early to tell on either guy, but just because Sizemore had a couple nice games, it doesn't mean it was an awful deal.

As far as other 2b/3b prospects, why is Worth a bench player and Sizemore is a budding superstar? Worth hit pretty well last year from the start, and he's hitting very well this year so far. Sizemore had even more opportunity to get himself going and he never did. Couldn't hit last year. Couldn't hit this year. And his defense is lousy while Worth is a plus-defender.

Sizemore has had a nice week at the plate. He's also got a .895 fielding % at 3b where the A's have been playing him. Pretending that he's the messiah is ridiculous.

The Tigers have three guys at Toledo that play 2b and/or 3b and are batting .315 or better this year. They've got a 3b in Erie batting over .300 at 20 years of age. They've got a blue-chip prospect 3b in Lakeland along with a 20 year old 2b who's hitting .308 with 12 steals. They've got plenty of 2b and 3b depth in the system.

Worrying about Sizemore is silly. The Tigers have made a bunch of these AAAA prospect dumps to the A's in recent years, and the guys they dumped all turned out to be (gasp!) AAAA players at best. He'll go cold at the dish and his average will be back down to .225 in a couple weeks. Yawn.

Quote:
We've had this discussion before. Baserunning ≠ steals. It's one part of it. There are guys who swipe bags but are poor basebrunners. Inge is one of the smartest runners on the basepaths the Tigers have had in a while. The guy reads plays extremely fast and makes the most out of every situation, and beats tags with his slides that he has no business beating. And on top of that, he very rarely gets an outfield assist put on him. I can't remember the last time he got laser'd.
This is another one of those categories that I'm not going to argue on - I mean, if we're not talking about steals, then baserunning is another of those things that only matters if the guy is a good player to begin with. If he's never on base, it doesn't really matter how his baserunning is. Don Kelly is a great baserunner too, and he's still a horrible player.

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Is his power gone for good? If so, how do you know?
Yes, it is. When a guy sucks for 52 games, he has to prove that he can still play. I don't have to prove that he's done. If Magglio doesn't start hitting, I'll say the same about him too.

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You're going to diminish the importance of how good of a teammate a guy is to virtually nothing but then go on to point out how stupid his tattoos are? Jesus.

Inge is a good 3B who has struggled this year. Assuming he's done and anointing Don Kelly or Danny Worth as the starting 3B is stupid. You gotta give Inge a chance to come off the DL and perform. The alternative is worse. I want that premier 3B like everyone else, but the Tigers don't have him right now, and Inge is their best option.
The tattoos are icing. He would be just as lousy at baseball without them.

A .565 OPS is their "best option". You actually included that in your argument FOR Inge. We're done here. Sorry, but that's a TKO. No matter how bad Don Kelly is, it doesn't make Inge playable under any circumstances. His OPS+ is 60. That is historically bad. That's Rey Ordonez/Neifi Perez country right there.

He's going to get his chance becaues he's one of Leyland's BFFs and he's under contract through 2012. But when he comes back and doesn't hit, will you be willing to accept that he shouldn't be playing?

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06-17-2011, 01:45 PM
  #986
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I don't know where you got your UZR numbers, but fangraphs has Inge's 2011 UZR at 0.3. That may technically be positive, but ahead of him at 3b are Longoria, Sandoval, Beltre, A-Roid, Uribe, Tejada, Callaspo, Nix, DON KELLY, Descalso, Morel, Hannahan, Roberts, Rolen, Mora, and Polanco. And that's only counting guys with 200+ innings (and Kelly), as there are another couple dozen guys ahead of Inge in UZR but with limited appearances. So that's 15 or 16 guys ahead of him, not 11.


They certainly didn't get top value for him, but DD wanted that reliever guy badly and he didn't place any value on Sizemore. Purcey has put up 8 scoreless innings, so he's looking pretty good. It's too early to tell on either guy, but just because Sizemore had a couple nice games, it doesn't mean it was an awful deal.

As far as other 2b/3b prospects, why is Worth a bench player and Sizemore is a budding superstar? Worth hit pretty well last year from the start, and he's hitting very well this year so far. Sizemore had even more opportunity to get himself going and he never did. Couldn't hit last year. Couldn't hit this year. And his defense is lousy while Worth is a plus-defender.

Sizemore has had a nice week at the plate. He's also got a .895 fielding % at 3b where the A's have been playing him. Pretending that he's the messiah is ridiculous.

Worrying about Sizemore is silly. The Tigers have made a bunch of these AAAA prospect dumps to the A's in recent years, and the guys they dumped all turned out to be (gasp!) AAAA players at best. He'll go cold at the dish and his average will be back down to .225 in a couple weeks. Yawn.
I think the argument you're making against Inge is precisely why we should have been more patient with Sizemore. Inge is playing like crap this year. Kelly's been better but that isn't saying much.

But your point about Sizemore not hitting in Detroit is true. But he's hit everywhere else (now including another MLB team). Granderson slowly went all to hell in Detroit but has turned it around in NY (even outside of his power numbers, he's swinging a good bat this year). Infante got moved for Jaque Jones and has since become a pretty solid infielder who swings a decent bat. Joyce has emerged as a pretty good bat.

Avila is really the only guy to have come up through our system, and continued to swing a good bat with Detroit (Boesch has been too up and down, but seems to have settled into that third spot). We don't exactly churn out a lot of MLB quality position players as it is, so seeing a number of them go on and do pretty well after we give up on them isn't something we can really handle over the long run. I've seen people call for Mclendon's head. I wonder if there's something to it.

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06-17-2011, 02:20 PM
  #987
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I think the argument you're making against Inge is precisely why we should have been more patient with Sizemore. Inge is playing like crap this year. Kelly's been better but that isn't saying much.

But your point about Sizemore not hitting in Detroit is true. But he's hit everywhere else (now including another MLB team). Granderson slowly went all to hell in Detroit but has turned it around in NY (even outside of his power numbers, he's swinging a good bat this year). Infante got moved for Jaque Jones and has since become a pretty solid infielder who swings a decent bat. Joyce has emerged as a pretty good bat.

Avila is really the only guy to have come up through our system, and continued to swing a good bat with Detroit (Boesch has been too up and down, but seems to have settled into that third spot). We don't exactly churn out a lot of MLB quality position players as it is, so seeing a number of them go on and do pretty well after we give up on them isn't something we can really handle over the long run. I've seen people call for Mclendon's head. I wonder if there's something to it.
I don't think Grandy has done anything in NY that he wasn't doing in Detroit - he's hitting 330 foot flyballs to right field. It's just that in Yankee Stadium those are home runs, and in Comerica they're pop-flies. He wasn't a fit because he refused to be a gap hitter and not a fence swinger.

Not sure about McClendon - he does seem like he gets a pass because he's a Leyland guy. I wonder how they'd do with a different hitting coach but it's one of those things that's impossible to predict accurately.

As for Sizemore, as I said, we'll see. I don't expect him to do much. If he turns into Omar Infante 4 or 5 years down the road, I'm still not going to say it was necessarily a bad deal. Sometimes guys need to change scenery to get themselves moving in the right direction.

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06-17-2011, 03:51 PM
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I don't think Grandy has done anything in NY that he wasn't doing in Detroit - he's hitting 330 foot flyballs to right field. It's just that in Yankee Stadium those are home runs, and in Comerica they're pop-flies. He wasn't a fit because he refused to be a gap hitter and not a fence swinger.

Not sure about McClendon - he does seem like he gets a pass because he's a Leyland guy. I wonder how they'd do with a different hitting coach but it's one of those things that's impossible to predict accurately.

As for Sizemore, as I said, we'll see. I don't expect him to do much. If he turns into Omar Infante 4 or 5 years down the road, I'm still not going to say it was necessarily a bad deal. Sometimes guys need to change scenery to get themselves moving in the right direction.
I figured it was the Yankees little league field boosting his numbers, too, but check out his splits. His home/away numbers are near identical, and he's hitting lefties better than righties. I'm not upset over trading him because I doubt he ever would have had that sort of turnaround here - but the guy is raking in NY now.

I don't want to really dwell on the individual deals any more, they're done, and the Tigers are still doing well. I don't like how nearly every other organization gets more out of our decent position players than we were capable of, though.

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06-21-2011, 04:22 AM
  #989
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
I don't know where you got your UZR numbers, but fangraphs has Inge's 2011 UZR at 0.3. That may technically be positive, but ahead of him at 3b are Longoria, Sandoval, Beltre, A-Roid, Uribe, Tejada, Callaspo, Nix, DON KELLY, Descalso, Morel, Hannahan, Roberts, Rolen, Mora, and Polanco. And that's only counting guys with 200+ innings (and Kelly), as there are another couple dozen guys ahead of Inge in UZR but with limited appearances. So that's 15 or 16 guys ahead of him, not 11.
No, fangraphs has his UZR/150 at 2.7. And even if you were looking at straight UZR, it's at 0.9. Not sure where you see this 0.3. But fangraphs defaulted to 350 minimum innings, where he was ranked 12th in UZR/150, and 10th in UZR, and that's what I was looking at. And, really, anything less than 350 at this point is a part-time player, or part-time third baseman, so I wouldn't count them anyway. They just skew the rankings of full-time 3Bs.


Quote:
If he were a guy hitting .300 or if he were having a 20 HR 100 RBI season, his defense would be acceptable. For a guy with no bat whatsoever, his defense is unacceptable. And that's over 52 games and 432 innings - basically a third of a season. How long do you need before you accept that he's not going to be playable again? 150 games? 300?
He's played 7 effective seasons at 3B, defensively. I need more than a third of a season (most of which included him having mono) before I can conclude he will never again play 3B effectively. I mean, what a laughable conclusion to come to. Players with a multi-year track record who struggle (whether it be offensively or defensively) for a third of the season bounce back all the time. Some guys struggle for an entire season and still bounce back. And it's not like Inge is 40. I just don't see how you can sit there and definitively say that Inge will never be effective defensively ever again. Except when I consider your irrational hate towards the guy. Then I can see it


Quote:
They certainly didn't get top value for him, but DD wanted that reliever guy badly and he didn't place any value on Sizemore. Purcey has put up 8 scoreless innings, so he's looking pretty good. It's too early to tell on either guy, but just because Sizemore had a couple nice games, it doesn't mean it was an awful deal.
No one said that. I called this a terrible deal the day it happened. I didn't need to wait until Sizemore started hitting. The kid has a lot of talent. They let go of Polanco partly because they felt Sizzemore could take over. Unfortunately, he suffered an ankle injury that tanked his 2010 season. But once healthy and tearing up AAA, the Tigers never really gave him a chance. But the upside is still there. And they gave him away for a guy they could have had for free and who is interchangeable with the other 3 leftys in the pen.


Quote:
As far as other 2b/3b prospects, why is Worth a bench player and Sizemore is a budding superstar? Worth hit pretty well last year from the start, and he's hitting very well this year so far. Sizemore had even more opportunity to get himself going and he never did. Couldn't hit last year. Couldn't hit this year. And his defense is lousy while Worth is a plus-defender.
Stop with the hyperbole. No one is saying Sizemore is a budding superstar. But he has talent and upside. Something Worth does not have. What Worth has is defensive ability. That all spells: bench player. He is what he is.

But yeah, Worth has been hitting well for two years and Sizemore hasn't been able to hit for two years. That's why their career OPS is 3 hundredths of a point apart. Please. This is ridiculous. If you think Danny Worth has the upside Sizemore does, then you obviously don't follow the Tigers minor league system. You gave some love to Rhymes earlier too. For someone who hates the way Jim Leyland loves players like Don Kelly, you sure think highly of other players in the same category.


Quote:
Sizemore has had a nice week at the plate. He's also got a .895 fielding % at 3b where the A's have been playing him. Pretending that he's the messiah is ridiculous.
That's because Sizemore is a second baseman. If the A's want to adapt him to 3B, hey, that's their prerogative. The transition isn't going to be immediate. And stop with the hyperbole. Again. No one is calling Sizemore a messiah. Why does he have to be a messiah for it to be a bad trade? The answer is he doesn't. You making it sound that way just discredits your flaky position.


Quote:
The Tigers have three guys at Toledo that play 2b and/or 3b and are batting .315 or better this year. They've got a 3b in Erie batting over .300 at 20 years of age. They've got a blue-chip prospect 3b in Lakeland along with a 20 year old 2b who's hitting .308 with 12 steals. They've got plenty of 2b and 3b depth in the system.
Where in the hell are you getting these numbers? Erie has 4 players hitting over .315 - 3 outfielders and a DH. No 2Bs or 3Bs. Toledo doesn't have a single player hitting over .315, let alone a 2B or 3B. They also don't have a 3B prospect in Erie hitting .300. Martinez is an ok 3B prospect and is hitting .288. And Castellanos is not in Lakeland, he's in Grand Rapids. This entire part of your post is pure fantasy, a complete fabrication.

I'm not worried about the depth of the system though. And I'm not worried about 3B prospects (Castellanos is good and Martinez is ok). I'm worried about the Tigers not having a homegrown 2B; not having a quality 2B prospect. And they have none now. Except for your make-believe guys.


Quote:
Worrying about Sizemore is silly. The Tigers have made a bunch of these AAAA prospect dumps to the A's in recent years, and the guys they dumped all turned out to be (gasp!) AAAA players at best. He'll go cold at the dish and his average will be back down to .225 in a couple weeks. Yawn.
Peddle your speculation however you'd like. But it's still just speculation.


Quote:
Yes, it is. When a guy sucks for 52 games, he has to prove that he can still play. I don't have to prove that he's done. If Magglio doesn't start hitting, I'll say the same about him too.
Ah. So, in short, we should take your speculation as fact. You can say a guy is done but have absolved yourself from the responsibility of explaining why he is done. That's nice.


Quote:
A .565 OPS is their "best option". You actually included that in your argument FOR Inge. We're done here. Sorry, but that's a TKO.
No I actually didn't include Inge's OPS in my argument, but thanks for fabricating that. The man made of straw looks proud.

You love your tiny sample sizes because that's all you have to support what you'd like to see happen. But Inge has a track record that Kelly doesn't. And as much as you don't want to hear it, Inge has earned the opportunity to get back to an acceptable level, because Inge at his normal level is worth a hell of a lot more than Don Kelly. That's the reality. Not because Leyland loves Inge.

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06-21-2011, 04:44 AM
  #990
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
I don't think Grandy has done anything in NY that he wasn't doing in Detroit - he's hitting 330 foot flyballs to right field. It's just that in Yankee Stadium those are home runs, and in Comerica they're pop-flies.
Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong. Granderson has hit nearly all his home runs to right/right-center field, where the fence in New Yankee Stadium is 20-23 feet deeper than in Comerica. Only 6 of his HRs have been less than 370 feet. He's never had more than 10 HRs over 400 feet in a single season, but already has 9 over 400 feet this year, less than halfway through.


Last edited by jaster: 06-21-2011 at 04:58 AM.
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06-21-2011, 09:19 AM
  #991
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
No, fangraphs has his UZR/150 at 2.7. And even if you were looking at straight UZR, it's at 0.9. Not sure where you see this 0.3. But fangraphs defaulted to 350 minimum innings, where he was ranked 12th in UZR/150, and 10th in UZR, and that's what I was looking at. And, really, anything less than 350 at this point is a part-time player, or part-time third baseman, so I wouldn't count them anyway. They just skew the rankings of full-time 3Bs.

He's played 7 effective seasons at 3B, defensively. I need more than a third of a season (most of which included him having mono) before I can conclude he will never again play 3B effectively. I mean, what a laughable conclusion to come to. Players with a multi-year track record who struggle (whether it be offensively or defensively) for a third of the season bounce back all the time. Some guys struggle for an entire season and still bounce back. And it's not like Inge is 40. I just don't see how you can sit there and definitively say that Inge will never be effective defensively ever again. Except when I consider your irrational hate towards the guy. Then I can see it
Inge may not be 40 but his knees are the equivalent of 45 or 50, at least. He hasn't been close to the same since those surgeries in 2009. No power or timing at the plate. Not the same range or arm velocity at 3b. Why? Because his legs and knees are weak and they're sapping his ability to push off with strength both at the plate and in the field. It's clear to anyone who cares to pay attention.

Unless they're on steroids, players with catastrophic knee injuries in their early-mid 30s do not miraculously bounce back. They either adapt to utilize other strengths (for Inge that would mean becoming a contact hitter - good luck with that) or they fall off the cliff. We can talk about any number of players that have had this happen - players get old and when they're not juicing, their level of play declines. Injuries accelerate and intensify this process. It's baffling why you think that Inge's play this season has anything to do with his play 7 seasons ago when he had good strong knees.

He's done. Accept it and move on.

Quote:
No one said that. I called this a terrible deal the day it happened. I didn't need to wait until Sizemore started hitting. The kid has a lot of talent. They let go of Polanco partly because they felt Sizzemore could take over. Unfortunately, he suffered an ankle injury that tanked his 2010 season. But once healthy and tearing up AAA, the Tigers never really gave him a chance. But the upside is still there. And they gave him away for a guy they could have had for free and who is interchangeable with the other 3 leftys in the pen.
So the Tigers had to keep Sizemore around because they made a stupid decision to dump Polanco and Sizemore was the supposed replacement. That's genius.

I also like how when other players hit well at AAA, it doesn't really matter because they are no-talent hacks. But when it's Sizemore, it's a sign of his talent and upside. Even though he never proved he could hit a beach ball in the majors and other guys did much better in their auditions.

Quote:
Stop with the hyperbole. No one is saying Sizemore is a budding superstar. But he has talent and upside. Something Worth does not have. What Worth has is defensive ability. That all spells: bench player. He is what he is.

But yeah, Worth has been hitting well for two years and Sizemore hasn't been able to hit for two years. That's why their career OPS is 3 hundredths of a point apart. Please. This is ridiculous. If you think Danny Worth has the upside Sizemore does, then you obviously don't follow the Tigers minor league system. You gave some love to Rhymes earlier too. For someone who hates the way Jim Leyland loves players like Don Kelly, you sure think highly of other players in the same category.
I don't particularly care for Rhymes but he hit over .300 over 54 games in 2010. That's not bad. Arguing between Sizemore, Rhymes, and Worth is like arguing between Ramon Santiago, John MacDonald, and Nick Punto. They're all backup infielders. It's splitting hairs. And I don't buy Sizemore's "upside" as you clearly do.

Quote:
That's because Sizemore is a second baseman. If the A's want to adapt him to 3B, hey, that's their prerogative. The transition isn't going to be immediate. And stop with the hyperbole. Again. No one is calling Sizemore a messiah. Why does he have to be a messiah for it to be a bad trade? The answer is he doesn't. You making it sound that way just discredits your flaky position.
You used Don Kelly at 3b as justification that the Sizemore deal was "AWFUL". Don't believe me? Your own words:

Quote:
A good 3B prospect who is years away and a meh 3B prospect who is at least a couple years away and currently over-achieving. Certainly no one who was definitely going to beat out Sizemore anytime soon, as you imply. Rhymes? Worth? Please, these are bench players. With Sizemore gone, the Tigers literally have no 2B prospects worth noting anymore. A couple scrappy, hard-working, marginal player with little talent, which Leyland is really excited about, I'm sure, but nothing for anyone else to be excited about. And they only have Don Kelly to plug into 3B.

The Sizemore trade was AWFUL.
If Sizemore and 3b don't belong in the same argument, you should not have included "We're stuck with ****** Don Kelly filling in at 3b" as part of your argument on why the Sizemore deal was "AWFUL".

Quote:
Where in the hell are you getting these numbers? Erie has 4 players hitting over .315 - 3 outfielders and a DH. No 2Bs or 3Bs. Toledo doesn't have a single player hitting over .315, let alone a 2B or 3B. They also don't have a 3B prospect in Erie hitting .300. Martinez is an ok 3B prospect and is hitting .288. And Castellanos is not in Lakeland, he's in Grand Rapids. This entire part of your post is pure fantasy, a complete fabrication.

I'm not worried about the depth of the system though. And I'm not worried about 3B prospects (Castellanos is good and Martinez is ok). I'm worried about the Tigers not having a homegrown 2B; not having a quality 2B prospect. And they have none now. Except for your make-believe guys.
First off, here's where I got the stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...gi?id=9be480d0

Second, it's cute that you waited until these guys had a couple 0-fers at the dish so you could claim my numbers are off. As of Friday, Argenis Diaz (who plays 3b) and Rhymes (who plays 2b) were both over .315. They had bad weekends and they're now at .305 and .304. As of Friday, Martinez was hitting .303. He went 2 for 18 over the weekend so he's down a bit. I don't think Rhymes is a top-flight prospect, but he filled the gap pretty well last year. If you're talking about track records, Rhymes at least has 2010 he can point to and show some amount of MLB success for a prolonged period. He might be able to fill in and not embarrass himself for a year or so until a real 2b comes along.

You might want to actually look at the stats before making ridiculous claims that I'm making stuff up. And responding promptly (or not at all) would help too, since stats for current seasons, y'know, they um, change. Cuz these guys are playing every day.

Quote:
No I actually didn't include Inge's OPS in my argument, but thanks for fabricating that. The man made of straw looks proud.

You love your tiny sample sizes because that's all you have to support what you'd like to see happen. But Inge has a track record that Kelly doesn't. And as much as you don't want to hear it, Inge has earned the opportunity to get back to an acceptable level, because Inge at his normal level is worth a hell of a lot more than Don Kelly. That's the reality. Not because Leyland loves Inge.
52 games is not a tiny sample size. It's a third of a season. That's enough time for a team to fall out of playoff contention. Are 10 starts a "tiny sample size" for a pitcher? If you had a guy go 1-9 with an ERA over 7.00, would you keep on starting him just because he was really good in 2006? I don't like Don Kelly at all, but he's actually played better than Inge has this season. That's the most damning piece of evidence against Inge that one could possibly put forward. Kelly is one of the worst players in MLB. And Inge has been substantially worse than him for 1/3 of a season.

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06-21-2011, 11:59 PM
  #992
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Not sure I want to get in the middle of this, but 10 starts and ~50 games is a pretty small sample size in the grand scheme of things. While it's hard to swallow those starts/games if the guy doesn't do well, if you're high on him, I think you give him at a season to find himself, sending him down for a bit if things get epically bad.

With Sizemore specifically, I think the idea that DD dealt him because he knew Leyland didn't care for him much could have some legs.

I'm just waiting for this interleague crap to be over with, though. Our lineup is soooo not built for it. And what sucks is that we were starting to find some consistency before this road trip. I wonder if we'll be able to pick up where we left off, or if we're going to be screwed for awhile.

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06-23-2011, 10:21 AM
  #993
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NBA draft tonight.

Personally I think this draft looks like a big pile of crap, so the Pistons should go for whoever they think has the most upside, even if it makes everyone have Darko nightmares. One of those 7 foot Euros is probably the highest-ceiling guy that will be there for the Pistons.

I'd rather they take a guy that might be a star than take a guy that they know is going to be a bench player, a tweener, or even worse than Ben Wallace offensively.

Biyombo scares the hell out of me. Dude looks like he's 26, and he might be. On the other hand, Ben Wallace didn't get good until he was 26 so maybe that's not a bad thing. All these 6-7 and 6-8 power forwards ... I have a feeling they're all going to be benchers and busts. Might as well go for the big payday in a draft this bad.

There are rumors the Rockets would deal their two 1sts for the 8th. I'd take that and then pick the TWO biggest lottery tickets on the board. The Pistons absolutely have to find a star player or two through the draft if they're ever going to compete again. Nobody wants to sign here as a free agent (at least nobody that's any good, Charlie V). They might win 40 games with a roster full of lunch pailers but they're not going to get anything accomplished. There will be solid depth players available at 33, so they can grab a guy there. Someone like the Purdue guy, he's a solid 8th man and he'll probably be there at 33.

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06-23-2011, 02:58 PM
  #994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Inge may not be 40 but his knees are the equivalent of 45 or 50, at least. He hasn't been close to the same since those surgeries in 2009. No power or timing at the plate. Not the same range or arm velocity at 3b. Why? Because his legs and knees are weak and they're sapping his ability to push off with strength both at the plate and in the field. It's clear to anyone who cares to pay attention.

Unless they're on steroids, players with catastrophic knee injuries in their early-mid 30s do not miraculously bounce back. They either adapt to utilize other strengths (for Inge that would mean becoming a contact hitter - good luck with that) or they fall off the cliff. We can talk about any number of players that have had this happen - players get old and when they're not juicing, their level of play declines. Injuries accelerate and intensify this process. It's baffling why you think that Inge's play this season has anything to do with his play 7 seasons ago when he had good strong knees.

He's done. Accept it and move on.
He might be done. He deserves a chance to earn his spot back. Maybe I would think otherwise if you could prove your credentials as a doctor and convince me that your biased speculation is something more than biased speculation I won't hold my breath, Mr. Pessimistic


Quote:
So the Tigers had to keep Sizemore around because they made a stupid decision to dump Polanco and Sizemore was the supposed replacement. That's genius.
Is that what I said? Nope. Not at all. I was highlighting a point that illustrated Sizemore's upside. Twist that how you'd like, but it doesn't change anything.


Quote:
I also like how when other players hit well at AAA, it doesn't really matter because they are no-talent hacks. But when it's Sizemore, it's a sign of his talent and upside. Even though he never proved he could hit a beach ball in the majors and other guys did much better in their auditions.
You must get confused about prospects often. If players always performed exactly to their abilities, the prospect game would be pretty darn easy.


Quote:
I don't particularly care for Rhymes but he hit over .300 over 54 games in 2010. That's not bad. Arguing between Sizemore, Rhymes, and Worth is like arguing between Ramon Santiago, John MacDonald, and Nick Punto. They're all backup infielders. It's splitting hairs. And I don't buy Sizemore's "upside" as you clearly do.
They're all backup infielders? Is that why the A's sent down two 3Bs with 1000 games of MLB experience between them to the minors before putting Sizemore in the starting spot? I don't see any teams doing the same for Worth or Rhymes. That's the difference between having upside and not having upside.


Quote:
You used Don Kelly at 3b as justification that the Sizemore deal was "AWFUL". Don't believe me? Your own words:


So me implying that Sizemore would give the Tigers another option to Don Kelly at 3B while Inge is out is the same as saying Sizemore is a "messiah." Ahhhhhh, ok. Bit of a leap there, sarcastro. If I comment on a HR by Casper Wells, does that I mean I think he's going to be a Triple Crown winner too? Lord.


Quote:
If Sizemore and 3b don't belong in the same argument, you should not have included "We're stuck with ****** Don Kelly filling in at 3b" as part of your argument on why the Sizemore deal was "AWFUL".
You are combining two unrelated posts. That was not part of my argument for why the Sizemore deal was awful. In trying to tear the guy down, you cited his .895 fielding % at 3B, which was based on something silly like 8 games (and which is now up to .938 4 days later). I was simply pointing out that the guy is a natural 2B (nowhere have I said Sizemore and 3B shouldn't be in the same argument) and that you'd need to give him a little time to adapt to third.


Quote:
Second, it's cute that you waited until these guys had a couple 0-fers at the dish so you could claim my numbers are off.


I didn't "wait" for anything. I simply read and replied to your post when I eventually had enough time to do so. But the updated numbers trump your earlier numbers, so the point still stands.


Quote:
As of Friday, Argenis Diaz (who plays 3b) and Rhymes (who plays 2b) were both over .315. They had bad weekends and they're now at .305 and .304. As of Friday, Martinez was hitting .303. He went 2 for 18 over the weekend so he's down a bit. I don't think Rhymes is a top-flight prospect, but he filled the gap pretty well last year. If you're talking about track records, Rhymes at least has 2010 he can point to and show some amount of MLB success for a prolonged period. He might be able to fill in and not embarrass himself for a year or so until a real 2b comes along.
Argenis Diaz? The 155lb SS who's career average is .268 and OPS is .668? The minor league version of Adam Everett? Yep, he's a real exciting 2B prospect.

Rhymes is a part-time backup and most-of-the-time minor leaguer, that's pretty well established.

Any other make-believe 2B prospects?


Quote:
You might want to actually look at the stats before making ridiculous claims that I'm making stuff up. And responding promptly (or not at all) would help too, since stats for current seasons, y'know, they um, change. Cuz these guys are playing every day.
Or, and here's a novel concept, you might want to stop peddling your tiny sample sizes as having any significant meaning whatsoever. In the meantime, I'll reply if and when I please.

Speaking of small sample sizes, remember those Inge numbers you excitedly quoted the other day? Well, if you insist on more small sample sizes, I saved you the trouble of looking up his numbers since then:

.429 AVG
.556 OBP
1.29 SLG
1.840 OPS
3 Rs
2 HRs
2 RBIs
2 BBs
0 Ks

Hooray for small sample sizes!


Quote:
52 games is not a tiny sample size. It's a third of a season. That's enough time for a team to fall out of playoff contention. Are 10 starts a "tiny sample size" for a pitcher? If you had a guy go 1-9 with an ERA over 7.00, would you keep on starting him just because he was really good in 2006? I don't like Don Kelly at all, but he's actually played better than Inge has this season. That's the most damning piece of evidence against Inge that one could possibly put forward. Kelly is one of the worst players in MLB. And Inge has been substantially worse than him for 1/3 of a season.
Cool story, bro. Inge has a track record that Kelly doesn't. And as much as you don't want to hear it, Inge has earned the opportunity to get back to an acceptable level, because Inge at his normal level is worth more than Don Kelly. End of story.


Don't worry though, your NBA talk will go completely unfettered by me (unless the Stones draft Morris). I couldn't care less about the NBA, the draft, or professional basketball players in general.

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07-02-2011, 10:14 PM
  #995
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oh bloody hell...can we just not do this interleague crap any more? Getting lit up by another NL club, and V-Mart leaves the game with a shoulder injury, and Leyland puts Kelly in to catch. Well, why not, we're getting slammed anyway. Just get the five innings in, rain like hell, and call it a game so they can get off the field.

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07-03-2011, 12:49 AM
  #996
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Here's a gem from Leyland:

Quote:
#Tigers Leyland: there may be somebody more talented, but for a 25th player, I wouldn't rather have anybody in baseball than Donnie Kelly.

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07-03-2011, 05:34 PM
  #997
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He might like Don Kelly, but he doesn't like Knapp nearly as much. Jeff Jones is the new pitching coach.

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07-03-2011, 07:18 PM
  #998
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He might like Don Kelly, but he doesn't like Knapp nearly as much. Jeff Jones is the new pitching coach.
Ugh....JV finally figures things out, and they sack the pitching coach because the other 4 starters have a bad week and Leyland doesn't know how to manage a bullpen.

It's kinda funny that when the pitching staff isn't pitching well they fire the coach, but when the hitters aren't hitting it's not the coach's fault. Hmmm....

Oh, and let's not forget that the players have figured out that Lamont is a black hole and they frequently run right through his stop signs because he has no idea what he's doing anymore.

It might just be time to flush the whole coaching staff and start over. Too bad they lost out on a chance at Gibby.

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07-11-2011, 11:53 AM
  #999
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Sarcastro needs to start up another thread for him, Shoalz and Winger to discuss other sports.

 
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