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Rangers have not taken any RFA's to arbitration

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Old
06-18-2011, 11:37 AM
  #26
dbmaven
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Then the Rangers would have to trade him before he needs to be qualified, and what team is going to qualify him at $2.1 million, or trade for him knowing that if they don't come to an agreement with him, he will become a UFA. He doesn't have value because of those two factors.
Re: Gilroy - I agree. Especially with the conundrum created by the situation with Drury. Qualifying Offers count against the summer cap - so there's next to a zero chance, IMO, that Gilroy gets one. He's a UFA when they don't submit a QO and can sign with anyone on/after July 1. Remember - the Rangers aren't exactly losing a big investment here - he wasn't drafted, signed as a free agent out of BU. All it cost them was 2 years of $$.

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06-18-2011, 11:43 AM
  #27
Leslie Treff
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Originally Posted by dbmaven View Post
Filing for Arb by Lou is strictly a protection maneuver. It gives him time (until August, effectively, when arb. hearings get scheduled) to reach an agreement with Parise. During that period, he can't entertain an offer sheet from another club.
This is correct. Its a way to not have to give a qualifying offer by Monday, June 27th. See CBA 10.2(a)(ii).

Looks like I am becoming a CBA junkie.

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06-18-2011, 01:04 PM
  #28
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What happens if a team gives an offer sheet, his team didn't match, but he doesn't want to play for the team that offer sheets.

Can he refuse to sign and sign with his original team?

I don't understand the point of offer sheets. Why would that player be obligated to sign anything with the team that offer sheets?

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06-18-2011, 01:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
What happens if a team gives an offer sheet, his team didn't match, but he doesn't want to play for the team that offer sheets.

Can he refuse to sign and sign with his original team?

I don't understand the point of offer sheets. Why would that player be obligated to sign anything with the team that offer sheets?
The player has to agree to the offer sheet. Once he agrees to it, the team that owns his rights have a week to match the offer or the player signs with the team that made the offer sheet. If the team matches the offer, the player is forced to sign with the team for that amount and years. Basically, if a player is offer sheeted and it is matched, the player signs for that amount with his current team. The offer sheet doesn't take affect until the player agrees to it.

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06-18-2011, 01:12 PM
  #30
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Sauer is eligible for salary arbitration.

The magic number is 24. The age of the player when the contract was signed plus 4 years of pro experience. Sauer's contract slid.

His ELC began when he was 20. 07-08. 08-09. 09-10. 3 year ELC. His number was 23 last season. Signed a 1 year contract. 10-11. Magic number is 24.

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Just four days later, July 5, is the deadline for Group 2 players to file for salary arbitration. Of course, not all Group 2 free agents have salary arbitration rights and there is no simple way to know if a player has arbitration rights or not, but the following two scenarios encompass the vast majority of players who will have that right:

1) Players who have four years or more of professional experience under NHL contract. (The exception to this rule is for players who started their pro careers in the 2004-05 lockout season, as that year does not count for determining salary arbitration eligibility).

2) Players whose age at signing their first NHL contract plus their number of years of pro experience under NHL contract adds up to 24 or more. For example, David Clarkson signed with the New Jersey Devils as an overage junior at age 21 and has been under NHL contract for three years, so he has arbitration rights. David Backes of the St. Louis Blues also has salary arbitration rights even though he has been a pro for only two seasons because he was 22 years old at signing.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...on-rights.html

Ryan Callahan signed his ELC as a 21 year old. 3 year ELC. Eligible for arbitration when it expired. 24 magic number.

Brandon Dubinsky signed his ELC at 20. 3 year ELC. Not eligible for arbitration. 23 magic number.

AA has 23. He needs 1 more season. His ELC slid in 07-08.

Clarkson signed a 2 year deal worth $1.6M on July 1,2008 avoiding to have to file on July 5.

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06-18-2011, 01:16 PM
  #31
Leslie Treff
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Sauer is eligible for salary arbitration.

The magic number is 24. The age of the player when the contract was signed plus 4 years of pro experience. Sauer's contract slid.

His ELC began when he was 20. 07-08. 08-09. 09-10. 3 year ELC. His number was 23 last season. Signed a 1 year contract. 10-11. Magic number is 24.



http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...on-rights.html

Ryan Callahan signed his ELC as a 21 year old. 3 year ELC. Eligible for arbitration when it expired. 24 magic number.

Brandon Dubinsky signed his ELC at 20. 3 year ELC. Not eligible for arbitration. 23 magic number.

AA has 23. He needs 1 more season. His ELC slid in 07-08.

Clarkson signed a 2 year deal worth $1.6M on July 1,2008 avoiding to have to file on July 5.
This is not what the CBA says. I believe that the article is wrong. The CBA does not allow the age of signing to slide.

He is right about Clarkson, because it follows the formula that is in my post, but his oversimplification is causing folks to make wrong conclusions. Dubinsky is eligible now.

Anisimov was 19 when he signed. Therefore, only his NHL years count. That's why he is not eligible, not some 24 magic number.


Last edited by Leslie Treff: 06-18-2011 at 01:31 PM.
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06-18-2011, 03:15 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
This is not what the CBA says. I believe that the article is wrong. The CBA does not allow the age of signing to slide.

He is right about Clarkson, because it follows the formula that is in my post, but his oversimplification is causing folks to make wrong conclusions. Dubinsky is eligible now.

Anisimov was 19 when he signed. Therefore, only his NHL years count. That's why he is not eligible, not some 24 magic number.
i think i need a diagram =P or an infograph as the kids use/say these days

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06-18-2011, 03:33 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
What happens if a team gives an offer sheet, his team didn't match, but he doesn't want to play for the team that offer sheets.

Can he refuse to sign and sign with his original team?

I don't understand the point of offer sheets. Why would that player be obligated to sign anything with the team that offer sheets?
an offer sheet is just a term for a contract a RFA has signed with another team...the rangers can offer stamkos a 10 yr, $100 mil contract and if stamkos says no thanks then it means nothing. but if stamkos agrees and signs the rangers 'offer sheet' then tb would have 7 days to match or take the picks. but nothing happens until the player has already agreed to sign that offer.

the player isn't forced to take the deal, he has already agreed to it before the team has to match.

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Old
06-18-2011, 05:06 PM
  #34
Leslie Treff
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
i think i need a diagram =P or an infograph as the kids use/say these days
Let's try it this way.

Players who sign at ages 18-20 need 4 years of "professional experience" to be eligible for arbitration. For 18 and 19 year olds, "professional experience" is defined as any season in which the player appears in 10 NHL games. All other season don't count. So, the player who signs at 18 or 19 needs 4 NHL seasons to be eligible. For the player that signs at age 20, "professional experience" includes all years of professional experience, including AHL or ECHL. So a player who signs at age 20, needs 4 years of play in any of the NHL, AHL, ECHL, etc. to be eligible.

Players who sign at 21, need 3 years of "professional experience". Players signing at 22-23, need 2 years; 24 and above, 1 year. For all these groups, "professional experience" is all years of professional experience, including AHL or ECHL.

This is the age of the player at the signing of the original contract, we are talking about. Not necessarily, the most recent.

Hope that this makes it clearer and you can take any player and figure it out yourself as to whether the player is eligible.

I hope that the two windows for club-initiated arbitration is clearer.

The above info on an "offer sheet", which is actually a contract between the player and the new team is correct. Basically, its a contract that the original team has the "right of first refusal" on.

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06-19-2011, 10:58 AM
  #35
Just Lurking
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Offer Sheets?

When can RFAs be signed to offer sheets? I assume beginning July 1, like UFAs?

So, if the next window for filing for arbitration isn't until July 5/6, doesn't that leave a window of several days where our RFAs could be signed to an offer sheet?

My understanding is that is why the Devils already filed with Parise. Why wouldn't the Rangers do the same with Dubinsky and Callahan, since its likely that their new contracts will extend beyond their remaining RFA years?


And a comment about "arbitration eligible". This just means that the player cannot elect to go to arbitration. However, the team can elect for arbitration with any RFA. However, a team can only do this to a player once during their career. But, once a player is arbitration eligible, they can request arbitration during every negotiation while they are a RFA.

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06-19-2011, 11:12 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
This is not what the CBA says. I believe that the article is wrong. The CBA does not allow the age of signing to slide.

He is right about Clarkson, because it follows the formula that is in my post, but his oversimplification is causing folks to make wrong conclusions. Dubinsky is eligible now.

Anisimov was 19 when he signed. Therefore, only his NHL years count. That's why he is not eligible, not some 24 magic number.
The article is wrong? It was written by a NHLPA certified agent Rand Simon who works for Newport Sports management who just happens to represent David Clarkson and David Backes who were the two examples cited in the article.

Simon has been a NHLPA certified agent since 1996. What does he know?

Anisimov needs another season to qualify for arbitration. Just like Dubinsky needing another season in 2009 when he was a group II while Callahan was arbitration eligible in 2009.

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06-19-2011, 11:29 AM
  #37
RangerBoy
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How many pro years has Sauer played? 4.

07-08
08-09
09-10
10-11

Article 9 of the CBA

Entry Level Compensation

9.1

Quote:
(d) (i) In the event that an 18 year old or 19 year old Player signs an SPC
with a Club but does not play at least ten (10) NHL Games in the first season under that
SPC, the term of his SPC and his number of years in the Entry Level System shall be
extended for a period of one (1) year
, except that this automatic extension will not apply
to a Player who is 19 according to Section 9.2 by virtue of turning 20 between September
16 and December 31 in the year in which he first signs an SPC. Unless a Player and Club
expressly agree to the contrary, in the event a Player's SPC is extended an additional year
in accordance with this subsection, all terms of the SPC, with the exception of Signing
Bonuses, but including Paragraph 1 Salary, games played bonuses and Exhibit 5 bonuses,
shall be extended; provided, however, that the Player's Paragraph 1 Salary shall be
extended in all circumstances.
Sauer's contract slid. His SPC started in 07-08 when he was 20. He was played 4 pro years.

Article 12 cites Article 9 on numerous occasions.

Sauer's 4 years professional experience. He has played 4 years of pro hockey. Even using the 18-20 year old argument,he still has 4 years of pro experience. He spent 06-07 as a 19 year old playing for Portland and Medicine Hat.

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06-19-2011, 01:04 PM
  #38
Leslie Treff
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
How many pro years has Sauer played? 4.

07-08
08-09
09-10
10-11

Article 9 of the CBA

Entry Level Compensation

9.1



Sauer's contract slid. His SPC started in 07-08 when he was 20. He was played 4 pro years.

Article 12 cites Article 9 on numerous occasions.

Sauer's 4 years professional experience. He has played 4 years of pro hockey. Even using the 18-20 year old argument,he still has 4 years of pro experience. He spent 06-07 as a 19 year old playing for Portland and Medicine Hat.
Take a look at the CBA again. It's not whether his contract slid. It is his age at the original signing of his first contract. Players who sign at 18 or 19 only have years in which they play 10 NHL games as "professional experience." read it again.

BTW, there is nowhere in Article 12 (in article 12.1 thru 12.4 that controls who is eligible for arbitration) that refers to Article 9.


Last edited by Leslie Treff: 06-19-2011 at 01:09 PM.
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06-19-2011, 01:07 PM
  #39
Leslie Treff
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The article is wrong? It was written by a NHLPA certified agent Rand Simon who works for Newport Sports management who just happens to represent David Clarkson and David Backes who were the two examples cited in the article.

Simon has been a NHLPA certified agent since 1996. What does he know?

Anisimov needs another season to qualify for arbitration. Just like Dubinsky needing another season in 2009 when he was a group II while Callahan was arbitration eligible in 2009.
It is not a magical formula. He is wrong in giving you the magic 24 formula. Each player has to be figured based upon certain dates. Why don't you read the sections I quote and do the computation yourself. You will see what I am saying.

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06-19-2011, 01:36 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Just Lurking View Post
When can RFAs be signed to offer sheets? I assume beginning July 1, like UFAs?

So, if the next window for filing for arbitration isn't until July 5/6, doesn't that leave a window of several days where our RFAs could be signed to an offer sheet?


And a comment about "arbitration eligible". This just means that the player cannot elect to go to arbitration. However, the team can elect for arbitration with any RFA. However, a team can only do this to a player once during their career. But, once a player is arbitration eligible, they can request arbitration during every negotiation while they are a RFA.
A qualifying offer by the RFA's club is not open for acceptance by the player until July 1 and expires at 5 pm on July 15th (a date which can be extended by notice to the NHL). If a player cannot sign a qualifying offer until July 1, he cannot sign an "offer sheet" either. The old team then has 7 days within which the club has to exercise its right of first refusal. If they do not do that, the offer sheet is binding.

And your comment about a player not needing to be "arbitration eligible" for a club to take the player to arbitration is incorrect. Article 12.3 requires that a player be "arbitration eligible" for a club to take that step.


Last edited by Leslie Treff: 06-19-2011 at 02:05 PM.
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06-19-2011, 02:54 PM
  #41
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Sauer has 4 years of pro experience. That qualifies him for arbitration.

07-08
08-09
09-10
10-11

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06-19-2011, 02:57 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
It is not a magical formula. He is wrong in giving you the magic 24 formula. Each player has to be figured based upon certain dates. Why don't you read the sections I quote and do the computation yourself. You will see what I am saying.
I have read those sections many times.

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06-19-2011, 03:09 PM
  #43
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Point of reference. First SPC in 99.9% of the players is an ELC. Article 9.

The slide rule for 18 and 19 year old under contract who don't play 10 games in the NHL is in article 9.

Both of those elements are in article 12.

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06-19-2011, 03:22 PM
  #44
Leslie Treff
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Okay. I am not going to argue with you on this anymore.

But saying that Article 12.1 thru Article 12.4 even mentions Article 9 is a flat out lie.

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06-19-2011, 03:32 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
Okay. I am not going to argue with you on this anymore.

But saying that Article 12.1 thru Article 12.4 even mentions Article 9 is a flat out lie.
Does Sauer qualify for salary arbitration with 4 years of pro experience?

07-08
08-09
09-10
10-11

I love being a liar. Remain classy.

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