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06-19-2011, 02:19 AM
  #1
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"Bruins built from the net out like the Rangers are doing."

Spare me... lets look at their drafts since 2003.

2003 Mark Stuart 1st. Patrice Bergeron 2nd
2004 No 1st. David Krejci 2nd
2005 Draft Dman in 1st rd. that doesn't make it, Matt Lashoff.
2006 Phil Kessel...leads to Tyler Seguin n 2011 X draftee. 2nd Milan Lucic 3rd Brad Marchand

Those are the impacts. Tim Thomas fell into their lap, like King Henrik fell into ours. Sorry, but the majority of Dmen picks taken in the 1st round is what has hampered the NYR growth. Go forwards. Look at that 2006 draft, that won a Stanley Cup...take it in fellas. Something to contemplate for the next few days....

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06-19-2011, 02:33 AM
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I'm tired of everybody trying to replicate what the most recent SC champs did to build their team EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

Every year it seems like there's a new formula to success that you must follow. If Vancouver won the cup everybody would be screaming "WE MUST DRAFT IDENTICAL TWINS!!!"


Last edited by McMonster: 06-19-2011 at 02:38 AM.
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06-19-2011, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
Spare me... lets look at their drafts since 2003.

2003 Mark Stuart 1st. Patrice Bergeron 2nd
2004 No 1st. David Krejci 2nd
2005 Draft Dman in 1st rd. that doesn't make it, Matt Lashoff.
2006 Phil Kessel...leads to Tyler Seguin n 2011 X draftee. 2nd Milan Lucic 3rd Brad Marchand

Those are the impacts. Tim Thomas fell into their lap, like King Henrik fell into ours. Sorry, but the majority of Dmen picks taken in the 1st round is what has hampered the NYR growth. Go forwards. Look at that 2006 draft, that won a Stanley Cup...take it in fellas. Something to contemplate for the next few days....
I'm a little lost with your post. The idea or strategy of building from the net out is different (or at least can be different) then draft strategy.

Boston has no home-grown D-men or goalies on their roster and just 5 (Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Seguin, and Krejci) home grown forwards.

In order to be successful in the NHL you have to have a pretty strong Goalie (Thomas/Raask), have a good D (Chara/Seidenberg/Kaberle/Boychuk), and then be deep down the middle(Bergeron/Krejci/Marchand/etc). Boston had this. They made a successful cup run because of a combination of trades (Peverely/Kaberle/Seidenberg/Kelly/Horton/etc), UFA signings (Chara/Ryder/Recchi), and drafting (Bergeron/Krejci/Lucic/etc).

If anything, Boston shows that you can't just build from the draft, but have to make smart trades, draft decently well, and make the occasional big UFA signing. It still does show that a team needs to build (overall) from the net out.

Look at Chicago: They had a hot goalie (Niemi), a very good D (Seabrook, Keith, Hjammerson, Campbell, etc), and extremely strong down the middle (Toews, Sharp, Bolland, Madden).

Look at the 2009 Pens: In net they had a very good MA Fleury. On D they had Gonchar, Letang, Orpik, Goligoski, etc. Down the middle they had Crosby, Malkin, Staal, etc.

All these teams made successful cup runs because they built from the net out and they did so by a combination of drafting, trading, and UFA signings.


Last edited by UAGoalieGuy: 06-19-2011 at 02:58 AM.
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06-19-2011, 02:53 AM
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Dsteppp I know what you mean but the bruins actually have a model that would be far easier for us to replicate than say Pit's or Detroit's because the backbone of their model is great goal tending and defense, one of which we already have in Hank, and with all these young D men we have the potential for an elite defense in a few years. Offensively the bruins were good, but they don't really have killer offensive players.

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06-19-2011, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsteppp View Post
I'm tired of everybody trying to replicate what the most recent SC champs did to build their team EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

Every year it seems like there's a new formula to success that you must follow. If Vancouver won the cup everybody would be screaming "WE MUST DRAFT IDENTICAL TWINS!!!"
me too. The summers after Chicago and Carolina won with rookie netminders, it was "you don't need a goaile to win the cup!" I think Chicago was "speed wins" and when Anaheim won it was "bruising style is the key to winning in the playoffs!" Every year, it's something different when in the end, it's all a matter of matchups + effort + a little luck (i.e. lucky bounces, a bad call going your way). There is still such a thing as playing like ****. If you get a good match up and don't showup, you'll lose that series. If you get a good match up and showup, you'll most likely win the series. There is no magic bullet.

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06-19-2011, 08:24 AM
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You win the cup by being a good team. Chicago was a good team. the broons were a good team. We're close to being a good team. Elite goalie, solid defense, solid bottom 9, and if richards signs a theoretically good top line.

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06-19-2011, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n8 View Post
me too. The summers after Chicago and Carolina won with rookie netminders, it was "you don't need a goaile to win the cup!" I think Chicago was "speed wins" and when Anaheim won it was "bruising style is the key to winning in the playoffs!" Every year, it's something different when in the end, it's all a matter of matchups + effort + a little luck (i.e. lucky bounces, a bad call going your way). There is still such a thing as playing like ****. If you get a good match up and don't showup, you'll lose that series. If you get a good match up and showup, you'll most likely win the series. There is no magic bullet.
After Detroit it was all about the puck movement.

I also agree that there is no single formula for success in the NHL.

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06-19-2011, 08:37 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n8 View Post
me too. The summers after Chicago and Carolina won with rookie netminders, it was "you don't need a goaile to win the cup!" I think Chicago was "speed wins" and when Anaheim won it was "bruising style is the key to winning in the playoffs!" Every year, it's something different when in the end, it's all a matter of matchups + effort + a little luck (i.e. lucky bounces, a bad call going your way). There is still such a thing as playing like ****. If you get a good match up and don't showup, you'll lose that series. If you get a good match up and showup, you'll most likely win the series. There is no magic bullet.
I understand the points made by you and Provolone, but the reality is that the Rangers are probably the closest team to the Bruins in terms of style of play. Does that mean the Rangers have to copy the Bruins? No, but it does give us an idea of what this team should do.

The thing about the Bruins is not that they built from the net out, as several teams do it and don't always succeed (and personally I believe that Bruins built down the middle at center instead of from net). A successful team could be built any way. It could follow the "Red Wings model", the "Predators model", the "Devils model" or any other way of building the team. The most important thing though, and the thing that makes the Bruins so successful, is that they are all on the same page as a team. Each players playing style compliments their line-mates playing style, or their defensive partners well. When somebody is injured, somebody else could step into the injured players role and fit seamlessly with his new line-mates.

You don't have to be bigger, tougher, more skilled, or faster. You just need to be on the same page.

That is why the Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan line is our best line, and Fedotenko-Boyle-Prust is right up there as well. That is why the defensive pairings of Staal-Girardi and McDonagh-Sauer worked so well together this season.

You could go on a battlefield with a machine gun that shoots more rounds per minute (goals) than any gun in the world, but if it isn't well oiled, it's not going to be effective.

The Rangers are drafting and trading for players that are all on the same page in my opinion, so the Rangers are doing it right. Werek didn't fit, so they brought in Lindberg. Horak wasn't part of the future, so they brought in Erixon.


Last edited by TrollololBoyle: 06-19-2011 at 08:54 AM.
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06-19-2011, 09:15 AM
  #9
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Both Gordie Clark and Jeff Gorton come from the Bruins organization so this is no surprise.

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06-19-2011, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukSOGoal View Post
I understand the points made by you and Provolone, but the reality is that the Rangers are probably the closest team to the Bruins in terms of style of play. Does that mean the Rangers have to copy the Bruins? No, but it does give us an idea of what this team should do.

The thing about the Bruins is not that they built from the net out, as several teams do it and don't always succeed (and personally I believe that Bruins built down the middle at center instead of from net). A successful team could be built any way. It could follow the "Red Wings model", the "Predators model", the "Devils model" or any other way of building the team. The most important thing though, and the thing that makes the Bruins so successful, is that they are all on the same page as a team. Each players playing style compliments their line-mates playing style, or their defensive partners well. When somebody is injured, somebody else could step into the injured players role and fit seamlessly with his new line-mates.

You don't have to be bigger, tougher, more skilled, or faster. You just need to be on the same page.

That is why the Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan line is our best line, and Fedotenko-Boyle-Prust is right up there as well. That is why the defensive pairings of Staal-Girardi and McDonagh-Sauer worked so well together this season.

You could go on a battlefield with a machine gun that shoots more rounds per minute (goals) than any gun in the world, but if it isn't well oiled, it's not going to be effective.

The Rangers are drafting and trading for players that are all on the same page in my opinion, so the Rangers are doing it right. Werek didn't fit, so they brought in Lindberg. Horak wasn't part of the future, so they brought in Erixon.
Horak became expendable because we got a chance to add a premier prospect d-man not because he couldn't have had a future with the Rangers. The rest I can pretty much agree with. Still--I don't think you will win unless you have a good offensive team--but there's no way you're going to win without good goaltending and a very strong defense.

Size and physicality played a part in cup finals as well. The series started with Burrows and Lapierre pulling some ******** stunts and the heavy hitting of Rome and Torres. The Bruins used Burrows and Lapierre's antics and Rome's hit on Horton as motivation and by the end of the series had beaten the Canucks up pretty good. It wasn't just on the scoreboard that they beat Vancouver but all over the ice.

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06-19-2011, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsteppp View Post
I'm tired of everybody trying to replicate what the most recent SC champs did to build their team EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

Every year it seems like there's a new formula to success that you must follow. If Vancouver won the cup everybody would be screaming "WE MUST DRAFT IDENTICAL TWINS!!!"
They wore yellow, WE SHOULD DO THAT!
I agree

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06-19-2011, 12:31 PM
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You acquire whatever makes sense. If the Rangers can get a 90 point winger for McDonagh or a 75 point center for Staal, it is obvious which way you go.

Similarly, if Jagr wants to come to the Rangers for $2 for one year, and a similar center wants to get $10 over 3 years ($3.33 per), it is also obvious what Sather should do.

The goal of this team should be to add offense.

The Rangers need an offensive defenseman who can get 50 points and two forwards who can get 65-70 points or more each.

Hopefully MDZ becomes this OD the Rangers need. If they can bring on Jagr cheap, it might make sense to overpay Richards more than before.

Richards + Jagr could make the Rangers a contender the way Richards alone cannot.

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06-20-2011, 01:06 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
I'm a little lost with your post. The idea or strategy of building from the net out is different (or at least can be different) then draft strategy.

Boston has no home-grown D-men or goalies on their roster and just 5 (Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Seguin, and Krejci) home grown forwards.

In order to be successful in the NHL you have to have a pretty strong Goalie (Thomas/Raask), have a good D (Chara/Seidenberg/Kaberle/Boychuk), and then be deep down the middle(Bergeron/Krejci/Marchand/etc). Boston had this. They made a successful cup run because of a combination of trades (Peverely/Kaberle/Seidenberg/Kelly/Horton/etc), UFA signings (Chara/Ryder/Recchi), and drafting (Bergeron/Krejci/Lucic/etc).

If anything, Boston shows that you can't just build from the draft, but have to make smart trades, draft decently well, and make the occasional big UFA signing. It still does show that a team needs to build (overall) from the net out.

.
I was pretty wasted when i made this thread. Actually forgot i made it.

But my point was draft wise. I'm sick of the Rangers drafting Dmen or goalie early and often. Sorry, but you can add those pieces a lot more easily through FA, as you pointed out.

When people say "build," i think they mean the draft. And if the Bruins Cup win has shown us, it's that drafting "goalie out", doesn't work. I'm willing to bet the Hawks draft selections are similar.

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06-20-2011, 01:34 AM
  #14
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The key to winning the cup is having 12 forwards able to contribute offensively as well as being responsible on defense, 6 defensemen that can move the puck from your end to the other end quickly and efficiently, and have a goalie(s) that can steal games when needed. Basically, if you have depth and skill players where you need them, you can win. But it takes a total team effort in order to get it done.

We have the goalie(s), we have the defense, we have a strong bottom 9 forwards. This team needs someone to play with Gaborik and most likely two people to play with him. Lines 2-4 are fine and there is reinforcements in the minors that can fill in when a player goes down. This is why Richards is a must at this point. IF Dubinsky can step into the top line LW spot, this team has a chance in the next 2-3 seasons to be something really special.

Replacing McCabe with Erixon will help A LOT. MDZ steps up and plays in the NHL and you're looking at a very strong, young, quick skating (minus Girardi and Sauer), and responsible D core. Even if Valentenko or Eminger are the 6th D on this team, it will still be strong enough to win.

We also have a lot of youth, which should be improving. Having that, and the potential of getting Richards, this team has all the pieces to be strong for MANY years to come. That is, unless Sather messes it up by spending money on the wrong players in free agency.

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06-20-2011, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
I was pretty wasted when i made this thread. Actually forgot i made it.

But my point was draft wise. I'm sick of the Rangers drafting Dmen or goalie early and often. Sorry, but you can add those pieces a lot more easily through FA, as you pointed out.

When people say "build," i think they mean the draft. And if the Bruins Cup win has shown us, it's that drafting "goalie out", doesn't work. I'm willing to bet the Hawks draft selections are similar.
the problem with defenseman via the draft is they take a long time to develop, however, the flipside is high end defenseman cost a boatload of cash via free agency. See Wade Redden, Brian Campbell, etc when it comes to ridiculous overpayment. Rafalski was a 6 million dollar defenseman, i mean sheesh.

Rangers have a plethora of very high end defenseman. It takes longer to build this way, but, imho, its the right way to go about it. You tend to see elite forwards hit free agency more than elite defenseman, at least imho. i cant really remember the last true blue elite # 1 defenseman to hit free agency....maybe Chara?

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06-20-2011, 02:00 AM
  #16
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There really is no model.

The only model is getting over 90 points and winning 16 games in the playoffs. Every Cup-winner does it differently.

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06-20-2011, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
I was pretty wasted when i made this thread. Actually forgot i made it.

But my point was draft wise. I'm sick of the Rangers drafting Dmen or goalie early and often. Sorry, but you can add those pieces a lot more easily through FA, as you pointed out.

When people say "build," i think they mean the draft. And if the Bruins Cup win has shown us, it's that drafting "goalie out", doesn't work. I'm willing to bet the Hawks draft selections are similar.
Wait the Bruins cup win shows us that building a team around the goalie DOESN'T work? What? The best players on that roster are Tim Thomas and Zdeno Chara without question. Just because they didn't draft either doesn't mean the team isn't built around them. Goaltending and defense carried that team.

What are you complaining about exactly? The Rangers haven't picked a goalie in the first round since Montoya in 2004. At that point, the franchise future in goal was very murky. Nobody knew Henrik was going to be this good. Go back and look at the picks made around Montoya. They didn't miss out on any superstars.

Most of the Bruin picks you cited weren't even first round picks. With picks past the first round since 2004 we've drafted Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov, and Stepan and we have Thomas, Hagelin, Grachev, Fasth, and others on the way. And since when do we not draft forwards in the first round? Is Kreider not a forward? Was Cherepanov not a forward? It's not the Rangers fault that the former isn't here yet and the latter died.

The only first round forward you cited was Kessel, who was the fifth overall pick in a draft with a very strong top-five. We never get to pick that high and Kessel wasn't even on the cup-winning team. That they turned him into Tyler Seguin is more a testament to Brian Burke's stupidity than it is a testament to their genius in drafting him.

There's nothing wrong with drafting defensemen high either (although at this point we should focus on forwards). Are you unhappy that we have what looks like a stacked d-core in Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Sauer, Erixon, Del Zotto, and possibly McIlrath down the line?

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06-20-2011, 02:16 AM
  #18
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However I will agree with OP on one thing, or at least what he seems to be getting at.

What you see here is, Boston was not building from the net out. They were already building a winner, and Thomas just showed up by a stroke of luck. They certainly weren't building around a guy who was in his mid 30's when he joined the league. The whole idea of Boston building from the net out is unfounded. Building from the net out involves growing young goalies, not picking up some seemingly average old man and finding out two years later that he's a God.

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06-20-2011, 07:48 AM
  #19
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On Thomas--I got this from a friend of mine who is a Bruin fan. Boston started the season with the idea that if anyone was going to be their starting goalie it was Rask. Rask struggled right from the beginning and that's why Thomas took over again. Thomas actually though has been a very good NHL goalie for several years but he is kind of old. Rask is considered their future--at least for now.

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06-20-2011, 08:05 AM
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only ranger's fans' could complain about assembling one of the deepest and most promising young defensive prospect groups i've ever seen

yes, we need some more offense, but that doesnt mean they haven't tried to address it in the draft

you're point makes little to no sense considering the following:
06 - sangs, AA
07 - chereponov, lafleur
08 - del zotto, stepan
09 - krieder, werek
10 - mcilrath, thomas

more than half of their picks in the 1st and second round over the last 5 years have been forwards

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06-20-2011, 08:25 AM
  #21
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You know who the Rangers are being built like?

The New York Rangers.

Especially if they pick up Richards.

-great goaltending
-tough defense
-finesse top line
-gritty bottom 9

We don't need to mould ourselves after anyone but ourselves.

Look back at any Rangers club that had success. And the formula we are building toward is the same.

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06-20-2011, 09:08 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Provolone View Post
Spare me... lets look at their drafts since 2003.

2003 Mark Stuart 1st. Patrice Bergeron 2nd
2004 No 1st. David Krejci 2nd
2005 Draft Dman in 1st rd. that doesn't make it, Matt Lashoff.
2006 Phil Kessel...leads to Tyler Seguin n 2011 X draftee. 2nd Milan Lucic 3rd Brad Marchand

Those are the impacts. Tim Thomas fell into their lap, like King Henrik fell into ours. Sorry, but the majority of Dmen picks taken in the 1st round is what has hampered the NYR growth. Go forwards. Look at that 2006 draft, that won a Stanley Cup...take it in fellas. Something to contemplate for the next few days....
headscratch??

I don't really know what to make of this.

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06-20-2011, 04:45 PM
  #23
Van Wolfswinkler
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The key to victory is the element of surprise... SURPRISE!

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06-20-2011, 04:50 PM
  #24
TrollololBoyle
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The key to victory is the element of surprise... SURPRISE!
So the Rangers should all dress up as Ninjas?

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06-20-2011, 05:50 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
only ranger's fans' could complain about assembling one of the deepest and most promising young defensive prospect groups i've ever seen

yes, we need some more offense, but that doesnt mean they haven't tried to address it in the draft

you're point makes little to no sense considering the following:
06 - sangs, AA
07 - chereponov, lafleur
08 - del zotto, stepan
09 - krieder, werek
10 - mcilrath, thomas

more than half of their picks in the 1st and second round over the last 5 years have been forwards
That says more about what you've seen (or, more appropriately, what you havent seen) when it comes to prospect pools around the league than it does about this board or Ranger fans in general

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