HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Value of Chris Kreider to the LA Kings

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-18-2011, 01:20 PM
  #51
ColonialsHockey10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
i wouldnt deal Kreider straight up for Schenn. I think Schenn is seriously overrated. Schenn is better right now, no doubt, but Kreiders upside is WAAAAYYYYY higher than Schenns.
This. I think most people know how I feel about Schenn.

ColonialsHockey10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 01:23 PM
  #52
Inferno
HFB Partner
 
Inferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Country: United States
Posts: 20,015
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
This. I think most people know how I feel about Schenn.
yeah, ive already gotten blasted enough in this thread, i just think Schenn is so ridiculously overrated. Schenn is clearly better than Kreider right now, but I still think Kreider will end up being the better NHLer.

Inferno is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 01:23 PM
  #53
ColonialsHockey10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Wow, just wow. Eric Staal was a 100 point scorer and Stanley Cup winner at 21 years old.

Chris Kreider scored .75 PPG in college at 20 years old.

Dont know where you uncovered that comparison, but its ridiculous
Do you have reading comprehension issues? He never said Kreider would be as good as Eric Staal, he said he compares to him. Kreider also compares to Bill Guerin and Mike Gartner, but nobody is saying he is as good as them.

Easily my biggest pet peeve with these forums.


Last edited by ColonialsHockey10: 06-18-2011 at 01:28 PM.
ColonialsHockey10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 01:28 PM
  #54
ColonialsHockey10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
yeah, ive already gotten blasted enough in this thread, i just think Schenn is so ridiculously overrated. Schenn is clearly better than Kreider right now, but I still think Kreider will end up being the better NHLer.
The ironic thing is that he is the exact opposite of Kreider in terms of credentials. Absolutely dominated the WHL, while Kreider was just solid in the NCAA. Racked up 5 and 6 point games against weak competition in the WJC, while Kreider was average. Then, in the medal rounds, Schenn blends in, while Kreider stands out. Schenn was also quite unimpressive in his NHL stint, while Kreider was impressive during the WHC.

Schenn is definitely a better prospect right now, but I agree that Kreider has more upside.

ColonialsHockey10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 02:24 PM
  #55
we want cup
We do not Sow
 
we want cup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New York City
Country: United States
Posts: 10,649
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TullyNYR View Post
A PMD is not what is needed.
Because we're just burgeoning with PP quarterbacks? Maybe I'm not as high on MDZ as others, but if we had a chance to acquire one of LA's awesome PMD prospects, I'd absolutely do it.

Kreider is a steep price to pay, but might be a necessary one. Don't get me wrong, I think Kreider will end up being a good player, but I'm not convinced he'll ultimately end up being any better suited to the first line left wing slot than Dubinsky. We have depth at LW, while, outside of MDZ, we have no one who projects to be an elite puck moving defenseman.

__________________

RANGERS =
we want cup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 02:52 PM
  #56
CM Lundqvist
Best In The World
 
CM Lundqvist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island
Country: United States
Posts: 8,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxZENxxx View Post
Kreider is our best prospect and has been compared to Eric Staal in the way he plays, but faster. He isn't worth anything you give us.
Not really.

Maybe in the aspects that he's fast and physical, but Staal and Kreider have two completely different styles of play.

Kreider to me is a more physical version of Tony Amonte, I said it from day one and still stick to it. People say a more skilled version of Callahan, while that's possible, I don't see Kreider ever being that kind of player defensively, and I'm MORE than fine with a more physical Amonte, who was one of my early favorites watching the Rangers as a kid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jas View Post
1) Very good read on Kreider. At this point in his development, he could be a very successful 3rd line checking forward. However, he's talents, which include not only his elite skating ability, but, also his shot. However, he still has a ways to go in his development. My impression of him is that when he reaches full development, we will see a hybrid of Tony Amonte and Bill Guerin.
Don't see the Guerin comparisons as Guerin was always more of a smarter defensive player, even in his earlier years. It wasn't just because of his development with the Devils.

Quote:
2) Make no mistake, I like Brayden Schenn a great deal, and would love to see him on the Rangers. But, Chris Kreider is a personal favorite of mine, and I really do not want to see moved.
I see Schenn becoming a Dubinsky, and nothing more. Maybe a 25-30 goal, 30 or so assist 60-65 point player, which I still think Dubinsky has a great chance of hitting.

No reason to trade an asset that we need more of (goal scoring wingers) for yet another two-way playmaking center when we have Dubinsky, Anisimov and Stepan. Redudancy in parts will end up forcing yet another trade, only to be looking to get back to the kind of asset (Kreider) that we traded away in the first place.

It's basically cutting your nose off to spite yourself.

CM Lundqvist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 03:33 PM
  #57
In The Flesh
Registered User
 
In The Flesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 9,731
vCash: 500
Kreider and DZ for Loktionov and Voynov

In The Flesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 03:37 PM
  #58
1Knee1T
OHH MAMMA DONT U CRY
 
1Knee1T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
Because we're just burgeoning with PP quarterbacks? Maybe I'm not as high on MDZ as others, but if we had a chance to acquire one of LA's awesome PMD prospects, I'd absolutely do it.

Kreider is a steep price to pay, but might be a necessary one. Don't get me wrong, I think Kreider will end up being a good player, but I'm not convinced he'll ultimately end up being any better suited to the first line left wing slot than Dubinsky. We have depth at LW, while, outside of MDZ, we have no one who projects to be an elite puck moving defenseman.
If we traded Kreider, we don't have any blue chip prospects at forward. You don't trade that away for a PMD when you have one in Del Zotto. If you don't like Del Zotto, that's fine, but it's still a bad move to get rid of your only blue chip offensive prospect for a second blue chip playmaking defenseman, especially with the bulk of other defensemen we have in the system.

1Knee1T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 04:08 PM
  #59
CM Lundqvist
Best In The World
 
CM Lundqvist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island
Country: United States
Posts: 8,578
vCash: 500
I don't get how people are so low on MDZ after one season. I know it's a big sophomore slump to have, but people are practically saying this kid's a bust and we should move him. I'd personally like to give him another chance, and get Richards and see how it goes for him both at even strength in his own zone and on the power play.

Now, back to Kreider, why would you trade a player with such raw talent and sheer athleticism for another defenseman? PMD or not, you don't trade away an asset that covers a need in which we have such little depth of to get another player that would end up being in position that we're log-jammed at.

Makes no sense. That's what Tully has been trying to say (and few are listening/reading apparently) throughout this thread.

Good heads up call, Tully.

CM Lundqvist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2011, 05:04 PM
  #60
gravytrain6t
Registered User
 
gravytrain6t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island
Country: United States
Posts: 2,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by In The Flesh View Post
Kreider and DZ for Loktionov and Voynov
I like the scouting report on Voynov. Sounds like a more physical and nastier version of fellow country man, Sergei Zubov. I especially enjoyed reading how he destroyed John Tavares in the Super Series a few years back. http://www.mynhldraft.com/2008/NHL-D...cheslav-Voynov

Projecting the possibility of watching him do that at the NHL level while wearing a Rangers jersey sounds even better.

Being a right handed shot he'd probably fit just perfectly with Staal, McDonagh, or Erikson. The odd man out would be one of Girardi, Sauer, or McIlrath. Like someone said, one of the 3 players would probably be used to try and pick up another promising young forward anyway. Neither of the 3 aforementioned "D" men in the Rangers organization would be luring enough to get a prospect like Kreider straight up.

So even if Voynov solidifies our defense and makes it much stronger than it would be with either Sauer, Girardi, or McIlrath, it still comes at the expense of losing the #18 overall prospect on Future Watch and the team's number one prospect.

I don't think we can afford to give up our most promising young forward. Unless it was some kind of package deal but besides Schenn, none of L.A.'s other forward prospects stand out to me.

Loktionov maybe.... But is he any more promising than the other Eastern Euro's we already have in the organization like Anisimov or Grachev?

Gotta say no to the OP, unless you can give up a forward like Schenn, Brown, or Kopitar (which you wouldn't want to do) because this organization has already passed up on enough currently starring forwards who've all somehow slipped under the Ranger's scouts radar in previous drafts.


Last edited by gravytrain6t: 06-18-2011 at 05:24 PM.
gravytrain6t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 05:26 AM
  #61
Jxmarts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
We are really overhyping Kreider. I don't know if its Leslie's rating or his international performances (Both substantial) but people's realistic expectations should be a kid who grows into perhaps a 25 goal scorer, who is a pest with his speed.

He won't be better than Kopitar.
What are you saying? The pundits rate Kreider almost as highly as they rated Enver Lisin and Matt Gilroy, and we know pundits are never wrong.

In all seriousness, I love young players, but I always try to temper my enthusiam regarding Ranger prospects. When I did so here with Lisin & Gilroy, I was assailed. And with Montoya, Sanguinetti, and even as far back as Brendl (at another site)... it was the same thing. Even Nigel Williams!

Kreider needs to demonstrate he can lead a team and score goals on a consistent basis before I annoint him the second coming. The WJC's, although encouraging, are simply too small a sample, and size & speed do not guarantee greatness.

I think Fitzy's assessment is optimistically realistic at this point.

Jxmarts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 08:37 AM
  #62
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,624
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jas View Post
The knock when he was at Andover was that the competition was weak, not at BC.
Then why do so many posters moan that if he stays in school against inferior competition, it will greatly hinder him?

Statistically, at least, he has not excelled at the collegiate level.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 08:48 AM
  #63
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,624
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
Do you have reading comprehension issues? He never said Kreider would be as good as Eric Staal, he said he compares to him. Kreider also compares to Bill Guerin and Mike Gartner, but nobody is saying he is as good as them.

Easily my biggest pet peeve with these forums.
So please explain how he compares to them if he will not be as good as them, besides that they all play hockey.

Staal doesn't compare to Guerin or Gartner in style, so I'm really lost.

I have reading comprehension issues, also.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 08:58 AM
  #64
BlueshirtBlitz
Rich Nash
 
BlueshirtBlitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 18,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
So please explain how he compares to them if he will not be as good as them, besides that they all play hockey.

Staal doesn't compare to Guerin or Gartner in style, so I'm really lost.

I have reading comprehension issues, also.
He was saying people compare Kreider to Guerin in style.

I think it's pretty dumb making player comparisons, but you see it in the draft. Do you think Landeskog will be as good as Mike Richards? I don't, but people compare their playing styles and intangibles.

BlueshirtBlitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 10:17 AM
  #65
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,624
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
He was saying people compare Kreider to Guerin in style.

I think it's pretty dumb making player comparisons, but you see it in the draft. Do you think Landeskog will be as good as Mike Richards? I don't, but people compare their playing styles and intangibles.
I haven't seen enough of Kreider to compare him to any of them, but a player cannot compare to Staal, Guerin, AND Gartner, because they aren't similar to each other in style.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 10:45 AM
  #66
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 14,811
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
Do you have reading comprehension issues? He never said Kreider would be as good as Eric Staal, he said he compares to him. Kreider also compares to Bill Guerin and Mike Gartner, but nobody is saying he is as good as them.

Easily my biggest pet peeve with these forums.
Then what the **** is the point in putting these names in the same sentence with Kreider? It makes zero sense.

Next time you decide to lecture someone, try to actually have a point.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 10:56 AM
  #67
LAKings4ever
Registered User
 
LAKings4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SoCal
Country: United States
Posts: 405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jxmarts View Post
What are you saying? The pundits rate Kreider almost as highly as they rated Enver Lisin and Matt Gilroy, and we know pundits are never wrong.

In all seriousness, I love young players, but I always try to temper my enthusiam regarding Ranger prospects. When I did so here with Lisin & Gilroy, I was assailed. And with Montoya, Sanguinetti, and even as far back as Brendl (at another site)... it was the same thing. Even Nigel Williams!

Kreider needs to demonstrate he can lead a team and score goals on a consistent basis before I annoint him the second coming. The WJC's, although encouraging, are simply too small a sample, and size & speed do not guarantee greatness.

I think Fitzy's assessment is optimistically realistic at this point.
I here what you are saying, up until Lombardi took over we never really had much in the way of prospects so never paid attention. Now that we do, it is hard not to envision the kids playing in the NHL and then once they start climbing the ladder and they start to falter you start to understand just because they project to one thing when they are drafted you are never really sure where they will end up once (if) they make to the NHL.

Sounds like a deal between our teams would be difficult, all we really have to offer at this point is PMD and potentially Loktionov.

Got to say, you guys are a fun group and hopefully we can see each other in the playoffs in the near future

LAKings4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 12:15 PM
  #68
nyr2k2
Can't Beat Him
 
nyr2k2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Country: United States
Posts: 23,093
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Then why do so many posters moan that if he stays in school against inferior competition, it will greatly hinder him?

Statistically, at least, he has not excelled at the collegiate level.
Are people moaning about the competition in college? Maybe a few, but it's just the classic NCAA vs Major Junior debate. And playing in Hockey East, one could easily make the case that he's facing consistently better competition than he would be in the QMJHL.

I think the most frequent complaint about his NCAA service is that he won't develop his offense the way he would in Major Junior, but that has more to do with how he's used by Jerry York at BC than the level of competition.

__________________

It's just pain.
nyr2k2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 12:53 PM
  #69
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,624
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
I think the most frequent complaint about his NCAA service is that he won't develop his offense the way he would in Major Junior, but that has more to do with how he's used by Jerry York at BC than the level of competition.
I find this argument makes no sense. Talent will emerge as long as effort is put in, no matter the coach. Coaching can teach defensive responsibility and some of the nuances, but in the end I don't think it plays much of a role in how a player turns out.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-19-2011, 01:15 PM
  #70
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 12,442
vCash: 500
There's no question at least as far as the stats go that Kreider's been an inconsistent performer in Hockey East. It's not an easy league and he was about as green as far as competition level--entering BC. One can say that at least in the first half of his freshman year that York had issues with his all around play and treated that accordingly. There is also the issue of where Kreider would start to go and along came an injury--concussion in his first year--broken jaw in the second which was a freak play. I think what's frustrating is Kreider almost always seems to come up big in big games--the WJC's, the Beanpots, the Hockey East and NCAA championships is where he shines the most. That he's played for the US WC team two years in a row can give you the idea that it's more than just Rangers scouts and management that see a big future for him.

The tools are there in any case and I have no doubt he's going to be a good NHL player--the only question is how good?--and for an NHL first line or even second to happen he's going to have to be a more consistent producer. There are instances of players being better pros than amateurs--he might be one of them.

eco's bones is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-20-2011, 12:09 AM
  #71
ColonialsHockey10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Then what the **** is the point in putting these names in the same sentence with Kreider? It makes zero sense.

Next time you decide to lecture someone, try to actually have a point.
BECAUSE THEY LOOK AND PLAY SIMILAR. Nobody said his upside is Eric Staal, they said he compares to him. Not to mention the original poster that "offended" you pulled out a ****ing quote from a professional scout that, word for word, compared him to Eric Staal. That should end this argument right there. If you have an issue with it, take it up with the professional who gets paid a yearly salary to do this stuff.

How is this difficult to understand? The best way for people to visualize a prospect is to compare them with a past/present NHL player that people have seen. Not everyone has watched Kreider consistently.

I for one, when I watch Kreider, see a Jeff Carter clone. Now, I could say, "Kreider reminds me of a faster, less offensively talented, slightly larger, american, more physical, brown haired Jeff Carter". Instead, Kreider compares to Jeff Carter.

If I want to describe Kreider's realistic potential, I would specifically say "Kreider's upside is similar to that of a..."

Ola always says Grachev will become a Franzen type of player. That is upside, he specifically says what he feels Grachev will become. However, when I watch Grachev, he reminds me of Malkin in so many ways. That's a ****ing comparison, nobody expects Grachev to be as good as Malkin, anyone who cannot understand that either didn't read it correctly, or they're trying to argue.

ColonialsHockey10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-20-2011, 12:13 AM
  #72
ColonialsHockey10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
So please explain how he compares to them if he will not be as good as them, besides that they all play hockey.

Staal doesn't compare to Guerin or Gartner in style, so I'm really lost.

I have reading comprehension issues, also.
Bill Guerin, a frequent comparison used by many posters on HF (along with Tony Amonte), was a big, fast, power forward that had a great knack for scoring goals. That's Chris Kreider's scouting report nearly word for ****ing word. Guerin is arguably the exact same height/weight according to hockeydb (incoming "I saw Guerin/Kreider in person, he's not that big), both attended BC, both are goalscorers first and forement, and both have an almost awkward looking stride in middle gear, but when they gets going it's a thing of beauty.

I never even said I agreed with the OP's comparison to Staal, but he made a harmless comparison, he isn't going Nostradamus on you and giving you his potential. However, describe Staal to me, using adjective. Now do the same thing for Guerin, and then Kreider. Ta ****ing da.


Last edited by ColonialsHockey10: 06-20-2011 at 12:28 AM.
ColonialsHockey10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-20-2011, 02:05 AM
  #73
Machinehead
★★★★
 
Machinehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New York New York
Country: United States
Posts: 34,113
vCash: 500
Am I missing something???

Everyone says our defense is set and yet I see Gilroy is still in our top 6, and all of our defensemen struggle to reach 30 points. I'd do Kreider for Johnson without thinking twice. That deal is perfect for us. Kreider won't solve our PP. Johnson will.

One of our biggest demands was PMD and now we're suddenly turning it down? Why, because we got Erixon? We don't even know who this ****in kid is!! Nor do we know if Del Zotto will rebound. I'd jump at Kreider for a PMD.

Machinehead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-20-2011, 10:01 AM
  #74
1Knee1T
OHH MAMMA DONT U CRY
 
1Knee1T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Am I missing something???

Everyone says our defense is set and yet I see Gilroy is still in our top 6, and all of our defensemen struggle to reach 30 points. I'd do Kreider for Johnson without thinking twice. That deal is perfect for us. Kreider won't solve our PP. Johnson will.

One of our biggest demands was PMD and now we're suddenly turning it down? Why, because we got Erixon? We don't even know who this ****in kid is!! Nor do we know if Del Zotto will rebound. I'd jump at Kreider for a PMD.
Kreider doesn't get you Jack Johnson.

1Knee1T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-20-2011, 01:07 PM
  #75
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,624
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
Bill Guerin, a frequent comparison used by many posters on HF (along with Tony Amonte), was a big, fast, power forward that had a great knack for scoring goals. That's Chris Kreider's scouting report nearly word for ****ing word. Guerin is arguably the exact same height/weight according to hockeydb (incoming "I saw Guerin/Kreider in person, he's not that big), both attended BC, both are goalscorers first and forement, and both have an almost awkward looking stride in middle gear, but when they gets going it's a thing of beauty.

I never even said I agreed with the OP's comparison to Staal, but he made a harmless comparison, he isn't going Nostradamus on you and giving you his potential. However, describe Staal to me, using adjective. Now do the same thing for Guerin, and then Kreider. Ta ****ing da.
In other words, if Poster A compares a player to player b and another poster makes a comparison to a different player, I should accept that as evidence of something.

Gartner, Guerin, and Staal share nothing stylewise, so comparing them all to Kreider, to me has no validity.

No matter how exasperated you get, and shake your head. If someone does not see logic and says that, they are not being argumentative. They are expressing an opinion that what they have read is nonsense. I still think the comparisons are nonsense.


Last edited by chosen: 06-20-2011 at 07:40 PM.
chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:02 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.