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are we becoming a contender if not already one?

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Old
06-19-2011, 07:48 PM
  #76
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Concessionaire View Post
There are different paths to success in the playoffs for different teams. IMO, the three main things got the Bruins through the playoffs were scoring depth, an effective shutdown defense pairing, and of course goaltending. Health was also important, but that's a hard factor to control.

Price was the best goaltender the Bruins faced, so it's no surprise they were also the toughest series.

The Habs defense is hard to judge because of injuries. It seems like Markov is always injured...do you anticipate he can have a healthy season at this point in his career?

In my view the Habs have decent forward depth and can spread out the scoring across lines. Adding a couple bigger skilled players would help for sure.
You hit the nailonthe head. Three teams took the Buins to seven games but only one (the Habs) did it on the basis of its goaltending. Roloson and Luongo failed their teams. But if you compare the skaters on the Habs with the Bolts, Canucks, and even the Flyers, the Habs come in behind them. In order for the Habs to climb higher they have to improve at several positions. The D was compromised by injuries, the forwards by not being good enough at C. I excuse Plekanec because he had densive and PK responsibilities and he scored a criucial SH goal in game 7. But that toad whose name I won't mention did what we expect of toads.

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06-19-2011, 07:57 PM
  #77
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Then why did they reach the final 4 last year and took the eventual cup champs to 7 games(including 3 OT's)?
While I think Montreal was better than the Bruins, let's stop comparing against Boston. Taking Boston to 7 games was not a huge accomplishment. Everyone was taking Boston to 7 games. Teams got crummy playoff goaltending and still took Boston to 7 games. Boston may have been the "eventual Cup Winner", but they were just not that good. I don't think it's wise to build a "Cup contender" on the idea that you might win if the other guy's goalie plays for .903 or less.

Yeah, so the Bruins needed luck to get past Montreal. They were luckier to get past Tampa. The Bruins won a Cup the way any club in the modern NHL might win a Cup: all the ducks fell in a row. They might fall in a row for Montreal next year, or Winnipeg, or freakin' Toronto if the Leafs somehow make the playoffs. If the Habs are to be contenders, we need to see if they can match Pittsburgh, and Washington -- those are the best clubs in the East and the true measuring stick.

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06-19-2011, 07:58 PM
  #78
Melvin Udall
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You hit the nailonthe head. Three teams took the Buins to seven games but only one (the Habs) did it on the basis of its goaltending. Roloson and Luongo failed their teams. But if you compare the skaters on the Habs with the Bolts, Canucks, and even the Flyers, the Habs come in behind them. In order for the Habs to climb higher they have to improve at several positions. The D was compromised by injuries, the forwards by not being good enough at C. I excuse Plekanec because he had densive and PK responsibilities and he scored a criucial SH goal in game 7. But that toad whose name I won't mention did what we expect of toads.

Great (and accurate) post dude!

L O L !

You might have included a lack of size and scoring (especially 5 on 5) up front (for the HABS), but overall good post.






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06-19-2011, 08:01 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
They also thoroughly dominated Vancouver in their four victories and outscored the Cancuks 23-8...people are seemingly forgetting that Boston has a balanced and deep forward corps, which includes the leading goal scorer and points leader from the playoffs (Krejci).
Yes, exactly. There's a reason why they dominated them and it all started with goaltending, and then Vancouver lost two regular Dmen (sounds familiar..).

The Bruins also got a relatively easy ride to the POs.
Faced Montreal that were without key players, and despite it, the Bruins needed 7 games to squeak into the next round by a goal.
Then, they end up facing a Philly team that is missing their MVP in Pronger on top of having a coach that lost his mind and opted to go with a proven average back up instead of a promising rookie at the first sign of nervousness. To no surprise, it was an easy ride for the Bruins.
After they get the Lightning, and early in game 5, they get a lucky break as they have all year+POs, Bergenheim gets injured. His scoring depth gave TB a very strong push during the POs. His loss was noted. Still, they needed the help of a collapsing Roloson in order to advance and could only do so, again, in 7 games by one goal.

They get to the finals. Despite losing game 1, they get another favorable bounce, the Canucks lose their best Dman in Hamhuis after he threw a powerful hit on their biggest PF. Game 3 comes, and you finally think they might have met their match when Horton gets creamed down the middle. Finally, a bounce that didn't go their way...or so we thought...Suspension comes around, Rome out for the series, forcing the Nucks to play without 2 regular Dman including their best.
Despite this, they still, for the 3 straight series, needed very weak goaltending from the opposition in order to pull yet another Game 7 victory.
As I said, despite all these favorable advantages going Boston's way, they still needed Thomas to be the Conn Smythe in order to advance.

Krejci is indeed the PO leading scorer by 1 point, in front of Sedin, and he has to thank Luongo for his help in making that happen. You're also talking about the same Krejci that was limited to 1pt versus Montreal. Not to mention, Krejci and Sedin (as well as their teammates) all played at least 7 more games then their opponents, so I would hope they'd be leaders. Their numbers aren't particularly impressive however, it's the first time since 2002-2003 that the scoring leader in the POs averages less than 1pt/gp. It's not like you have the new superstar in David Krejci. Not taking anything away from him, he's a great player, but no need to pimp him out.


I strongly doubt Boston's capable of a repeat. I actually wouldn't be surprised if they don't even clinch their division.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You hit the nailonthe head. Three teams took the Buins to seven games but only one (the Habs) did it on the basis of its goaltending. Roloson and Luongo failed their teams. But if you compare the skaters on the Habs with the Bolts, Canucks, and even the Flyers, the Habs come in behind them. In order for the Habs to climb higher they have to improve at several positions. The D was compromised by injuries, the forwards by not being good enough at C. I excuse Plekanec because he had densive and PK responsibilities and he scored a criucial SH goal in game 7. But that toad whose name I won't mention did what we expect of toads.
Yes, but that could change as early as next year.

MaxPac didn't play half the year but he was slowly coming into his own. He certainly made a case for himself to be used on the top6. He tallied up 20pts in 28GP in 2011 and was one of our better players during that period.

DD was producing at a .5 rate which is great for a rookie. He can certainly provide some scoring depth from the bottom two lines, and adds some more depth for the PP as well. His skating might not be the best, but it didn't prove to be problematic last year.

Eller, despite not scoring, was impressive imo. The way he battles around the boards, controls and protect the pucks, are very important skills. If Gauthier is able to sign a top 6 forward from the open market (Jagr or whoever else), then it opens up a possibility of playing Eller and AK together. They shown good things together last year and I feel AK would benefit from not always being the bigger guy of his line. I think playing on the 3rd line with less pressure, versus weaker opponents, would be great for him, and therefore, be great for Eller too.

If those three young guys can continue their progression, then we could have the same depth the other teams you mentioned have (don't think TB has much more of it than us however, but they do have three superstars). Not to mention, the return of guys like Weber, Gorges and Markov (assuming they'll both sign soon enough) as well as the addition of Emelin over slower guys like Hammer, Sopel and Mara will surely contribute to an increase in puck moving and speed.

So ya, last year, those guys were faster. Next year however, not necessarily true for all of them.

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Old
06-19-2011, 10:12 PM
  #80
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You mean the David Krejci that scored 12 goals in 25 games? Cammy scored 13 in 19 games last year. 16 in 26 if you count this year. 29 points in 26 games over two playoff runs. I'm not trying to take away from your cup run, but your making Krejci out to be something Montreal doesn't have, which is false.
Nowhere in my post did I indicate anything similar to that. In fact, I'm quite amazed that you inferred that from my post. Wow.

I'm just pointing out that Boston has an offense that won them games this year and arguing against the point that Boston only won because of goaltending.

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06-19-2011, 10:41 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
Nowhere in my post did I indicate anything similar to that. In fact, I'm quite amazed that you inferred that from my post. Wow.

I'm just pointing out that Boston has an offense that won them games this year and arguing against the point that Boston only won because of goaltending.
Arguing Boston won because of their offense is like Habs fan saying we got to the ECF because of Cammalleri.
Obviously if Boston didn't score goals, they wouldn't have gone very far either. Just like we wouldn't have made it without Cammy. But the number one factor was goaltending and that's why Timmy won the Conn Smythe.

Would they have made it without some stellar goaltending from Thomas? Considering they won three series in 7 games, two of which were all closely scored games, I'd have to think not.

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06-19-2011, 11:05 PM
  #82
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Arguing Boston won because of their offense is like Habs fan saying we got to the ECF because of Cammalleri.
Obviously if Boston didn't score goals, they wouldn't have gone very far either. Just like we wouldn't have made it without Cammy. But the number one factor was goaltending and that's why Timmy won the Conn Smythe.

Would they have made it without some stellar goaltending from Thomas? Considering they won three series in 7 games, two of which were all closely scored games, I'd have to think not.
Again, people are reading things that are not there in my post.

Boston would not have won without Thomas, sure. He was their best player by far.

However, Boston also doesn't win the cup without scoring 3.24 goals a game in these playoffs. Their offense stepped up when it counted.

The Bruins won the cup playing as a TEAM, a team that had excellent goaltending, superb defense, and a deep and balanced offense.

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06-19-2011, 11:12 PM
  #83
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IF

IF...Markov and Gorges fully rebound and have injury-free seasons
IF...Pacioretty proves to be a legitimate top 6
IF...Yemelin is all he was said to be

then Montreal is a legitimate contender out of the East. That being said, so are Philly, Boston, Tampa Bay, Washington and Pittsburgh. New Jersey will also be much better.

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06-20-2011, 01:43 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
Again, people are reading things that are not there in my post.

Boston would not have won without Thomas, sure. He was their best player by far.

However, Boston also doesn't win the cup without scoring 3.24 goals a game in these playoffs. Their offense stepped up when it counted.

The Bruins won the cup playing as a TEAM, a team that had excellent goaltending, superb defense, and a deep and balanced offense.
I'm not reading things that are not there.

I said the most important factor was goaltending. You don't need to add that they also needed offense and defense. There isn't one NHL team that has won the cup based on only one factor. It's always a team effort.

But the point I was making is that goaltending was the most important factor. This was proven when Thomas won low scoring games. Boston were able to put up numbers whenever the opposing goalie was pretty much off. Great. But winning 8-1 doesn't mean your offense was amazing, it means the opponent's defense+goaltending was extremely weak. Boston doesn't have one superstar up front. They don't have Ovechkin type of players. Matter of fact, not one single player averaged 1pt/gp throughout the POs. Yes, they had good depth from guys like Ryder, Kelly and Peverley. But that's not the primary reason as to why they won.

You can draw the same comparison with Cammy-Halak last season. We likely don't advance without either one, but Halak was still more important than Cammy.
Same thing here. You probably don't go far without any offense, but you don't go anywhere without Thomas.

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06-20-2011, 03:08 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
These 6 eastern teams should make the playoffs every year in the foreseeable future :

Phi-Pit-Mtl-Bos-TB-Was

Car-NY-Buf are the closest to this group of 6

HM to TO

Even though they had an exceptional half season, I don't count NJ as they are unstable, Lemaire's not back, and Brodeur is gonna call it quits any time now.
agree with your list but i disagree with your assessment of jersey. bad coach or not, what happened last year was a freak occurrence. add a healthy parise to that and you got a hell of team

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06-20-2011, 08:12 AM
  #86
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agree with your list but i disagree with your assessment of jersey. bad coach or not, what happened last year was a freak occurrence. add a healthy parise to that and you got a hell of team
I still think Brodeur has 1-2 quality seasons left. Clearly, John MacLean was the wrong choice as a coach but you can't say that only Jacques Lemaire has the skill set to make this a competitive team. They have Parise and Kovalchuk to build around for years to come. They have a young and mobile defense and Lou Lamo.. is still at the helm. I think they will make the playoffs this upcoming season, and if they can replace Brodeur with a solid goaltender--there seems to be an overabundance these days--then they will remain competitive for years to come.

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06-20-2011, 08:15 AM
  #87
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The way I see it is this. With the cap in place talent is spread around quite a bit. That leaves 16 teams that make the playoffs having favorable teams when compared to one another.

The first place team and eight place team are no longer leaps and bounds difference in terms of talent and something as little as being a good match-up (style that is beneficial against your opponent) can make you win against the 1st place team.

Then we factor in the fact that talent is obviously spread around a lot more. When one of your big name players gets injured it's far more important now a days then it was previously. Injuries play a much bigger role in who wins the cup or rather who can stay healthy. This is why in the next decade I see an 8th place team winning the cup. The hardest part is likely beating the 1st place team especially when healthy, and we've seen it before and we'll see it again. In essence each season there are 14-16 contenders, will knock 2 teams out right away due to being plagued by injuries and we'll say by playoff time 14 are contenders.

Then of those 14 usually two teams also have a goaltending issue or a defense issue, I wouldn't rule them out as contenders so we'll stick with 14 but I'd say they aren't as likely to win as the other twelve. Might be a hair line difference but we're talking hypothetical anyways.

So on any given year 12/16 teams heading into the playoffs minimum are contenders or could even become a contender if they end up against a team in the finals who is plagued by injuries. Then you make it to the Stanley Cup and bottom line is even if it's a healthy 16th place team versus a healthy 1st place team, everyone is playing above their level at that point and it's all about winning a 7 game series. Imo anything can happen but injuries are what stops one team from being a contender or even often times brings one team from not really contending to being one due to their positive health.

If the habs can stay healthy we're definitely a contender because we make the playoffs every year. When you think about it the model of "get your feet in the door" isn't as far off as people around here make it out to be. You make the playoffs especially with a healthy roster, you have a chance to win, you don't even need to be the best roster.

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agree with your list but i disagree with your assessment of jersey. bad coach or not, what happened last year was a freak occurrence. add a healthy parise to that and you got a hell of team
It isn't so much the "bad coach" aspect he's referring it. More so he's referring to lack of a very good coach in Lemaire as no other comparable coaches will be available they'll be stuck with an average to slightly above average coach at best.

That having been said though, Brodeur is on his way out the door in the next couple years. So that point I agree with. Adding a healthy Parise I don't think will make up for lacking Brodeur and a solid coach. It will make them more of a borderline team but let's not forget they traded away several players too.

Either way we should probably wait and see what their team looks like for puck drop game #1 before we truly make a decision about them. They're an interesting case.

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06-20-2011, 08:40 AM
  #88
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It isn't so much the "bad coach" aspect he's referring it. More so he's referring to lack of a very good coach in Lemaire as no other comparable coaches will be available they'll be stuck with an average to slightly above average coach at best.

That having been said though, Brodeur is on his way out the door in the next couple years. So that point I agree with. Adding a healthy Parise I don't think will make up for lacking Brodeur and a solid coach. It will make them more of a borderline team but let's not forget they traded away several players too.

Either way we should probably wait and see what their team looks like for puck drop game #1 before we truly make a decision about them. They're an interesting case.
Oh I agree with you. All I'm saying is that as long as Brodeur is there I think they are a solid playoff team and with Parise and Kovalchuk they can be effective. For this upcoming season, after wash,philly,mon,pitt,tampa, boston, i think NJ has the next best chances to make the playoffs. The 8 spot will either go to NYR, Toronto, or Buffalo. On another note I think people are placing too much weight on Toronto's 2nd half of this past season. To make the playoffs they need to improve their forwards significantly first.

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06-20-2011, 09:14 AM
  #89
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^ The Leafs have gotten into the habit of "bad first half, decent second half" over the past few years. They dig themselves too deep a hole in the first half to get themselves out of, then all playoff expectations come off them, and they loosen up and play better after that. I wouldn't expect anything different out of them this season.

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06-20-2011, 09:58 AM
  #90
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A contender for me is a team for which you can reasonably (without fan bias) expect to reach the top 4 without making significant changes to the current roster. If I was to pick 4 teams today that I would bet would compete for the cup in 2011-2012 then Montreal would not be one of them. Not with a 22nd ranked offense and lack of proven track record in lengthy post seasons. Changes required.

But then again with the razor thin margins by which Boston and Vancouver reached the finals, and given the changes that all teams are forced to make in their off seasons I would be hard pressed to declare any true contenders on June 20.

The fun thing about the NHL these days is that there are fewer obvious contenders, the "foreseeable future" is the shortest it's ever been, and the differences between skill levels in teams is the smallest it's ever been. All this means is that management moves of every type are now magnified in their importance.

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06-20-2011, 10:27 AM
  #91
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A contender for me is a team for which you can reasonably (without fan bias) expect to reach the top 4 without making significant changes to the current roster. If I was to pick 4 teams today that I would bet would compete for the cup in 2011-2012 then Montreal would not be one of them. Not with a 22nd ranked offense and lack of proven track record in lengthy post seasons. Changes required.

But then again with the razor thin margins by which Boston and Vancouver reached the finals, and given the changes that all teams are forced to make in their off seasons I would be hard pressed to declare any true contenders on June 20.

The fun thing about the NHL these days is that there are fewer obvious contenders, the "foreseeable future" is the shortest it's ever been, and the differences between skill levels in teams is the smallest it's ever been. All this means is that management moves of every type are now magnified in their importance.


Great post.

At least to a degree, the NHL - like never before (in my lifetime) - does have 'parity'.

It is indeed difficult to pick 1 or even 2 clear Cup favourites - it may be easier to identify the (expected) 'bottom dwellers'.

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06-20-2011, 11:01 AM
  #92
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^ The Leafs have gotten into the habit of "bad first half, decent second half" over the past few years. They dig themselves too deep a hole in the first half to get themselves out of, then all playoff expectations come off them, and they loosen up and play better after that. I wouldn't expect anything different out of them this season.
Soon to coin the new term : Going on Leaf mode

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06-20-2011, 04:54 PM
  #93
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Yes Melvin seems to feel if you have a point, you should keep repeating it. Bit soon to write the book on next season for me.

Personally I wonder what the rules will be next year. This year I felt Boston was given more leeway than is normal in recent years. For instance Daniel Sedin will probably win the MVP this year. I'm not sure it's normal for the current league MVP to be ejected for ten minutes of SCF elimination game for the sin of taking six punches in the face from a known instigator rookie. This year the refs seemed to feel that Daniel was obliged to drop his gloves or else he's a chicken. MVPs do not always get treated this way, and I hope to see a little respect for skilled players return to the game. And here I am repeating my own current favorite point.
I thought that it was absolutely disgusting.

The NHL network talked about this last week and it really brought the point home. In the NFL you wouldn't see this kind of crap. Anyone touches Brady after the play and there's a penalty. The NHL doesn't do near enough to enforce it's own rules and that Marchand example was a complete disgrace. If Sedin does nothing he's a candyass. If he retaliates... then he has no discipline. That's how the commentators spin it and the guy can't win. The league shouldn't allow this kind of garbage. Putting your whistle away is fine but the after the play garbage needs to stop.

That being said, we should have learned this by now. The refs put their whistles away in the postseason and it's like the regular season didn't exist. Toughness is not the be all and end all but you need to be more rugged in the postseason to have success.
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Still stuck in 2010? Well. at least you don't regurgitate the Halak hype.

You think Thomas was sterling in all seven games against the Habs? I don't, yet the Bruins gave him stronger support. What's his excuse for losing three games to an inferior team? Obviously Price played a huge role in prolonging the series. I watched the Road to the Cup replay on the NHL Network and I thoight Price played at least as well as Thomas throughout. I delight in the fact that Thomas is 37 and Price is 23 (0r 24?). I'm confident that Price will outshine his contemporary when Rask replaces Thomas.
I love Price and believe he will be a star. But I think Rask is going to be really good too... The Bruins could trade away Thomas, get a mint for him and they'd still be fine in goal.

Too bad we didn't make any deals with the Leafs over the past few years. Boston robbed them blind.
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
These 6 eastern teams should make the playoffs every year in the foreseeable future :

Phi-Pit-Mtl-Bos-TB-Was

Car-NY-Buf are the closest to this group of 6

HM to TO

Even though they had an exceptional half season, I don't count NJ as they are unstable, Lemaire's not back, and Brodeur is gonna call it quits any time now.
I think TB and Montreal belong to the Car, NY, Buf group. They need to show more consistency before making the jump to that class.

It might not happen but would anyone be surprised to see NJ fly past Montreal or TB in the standings this year? I don't think so. And probably none of those three make the playoffs in the Western conference.
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
How are you a contender when you're near the bottom of the league in 5 on 5 scoring?

Habs are a middle of the road team, nothing more, nothing less.
You are correct.
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Then why did they reach the final 4 last year and took the eventual cup champs to 7 games(including 3 OT's)?
A guy who's no longer on our roster took us there. Otherwise we get destroyed in the first series against Washington. Also keep in mind that we had no business even making the playoffs that year because we came in with an embarrassing 88 points.
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You hit the nailonthe head. Three teams took the Buins to seven games but only one (the Habs) did it on the basis of its goaltending. Roloson and Luongo failed their teams. But if you compare the skaters on the Habs with the Bolts, Canucks, and even the Flyers, the Habs come in behind them. In order for the Habs to climb higher they have to improve at several positions. The D was compromised by injuries, the forwards by not being good enough at C. I excuse Plekanec because he had densive and PK responsibilities and he scored a criucial SH goal in game 7. But that toad whose name I won't mention did what we expect of toads.
Pretty much nails it.

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06-20-2011, 05:16 PM
  #94
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I think TB and Montreal belong to the Car, NY, Buf group. They need to show more consistency before making the jump to that class.

The group is "eastern teams that will make the playoffs every year, in the next few years", that's the post of mine you responded too.

Habs have missed the playoffs once, by a single point, over the last 7 seasons. How can they make the playoffs more consistently than that? They would be, if they didn't miss that one single time, by a single point?

You're so stuck into your mindset, you're wearing blinders, and can't even respond logically.

So just reply by answering this : You disagree that the Habs are one of those teams in the east that are almost sure of making the playoffs every year, despite having made them 6 out of the last 7, and the present crew having made them twice in their only 2 years together, having made them in 6th position 7 points out of first place of the division without our MVP for almost the entire season this year, despite having one of the best goalies in the league, despite the rookies who are performing well and getting added to an already performing squad?

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06-20-2011, 05:36 PM
  #95
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we are a contender - this year was the beginning

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06-21-2011, 01:23 AM
  #96
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If you guys can keep your D healthy for next year I would say you are a contender. The bruins had their hands full and you guys were injured.

Your forechecking was relentless. It was a good series and one that belongs on the mantle with the rest of great rivalry. I love it when our 2 teams play regular season or playoffs. Always fun the games are.

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06-21-2011, 08:50 AM
  #97
Pascal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyfan68 View Post
If you guys can keep your D healthy for next year I would say you are a contender. The bruins had their hands full and you guys were injured.

Your forechecking was relentless. It was a good series and one that belongs on the mantle with the rest of great rivalry. I love it when our 2 teams play regular season or playoffs. Always fun the games are.
I guess winning the cup filled some Bruins fans with eternal love, happiness and sunshine!

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06-21-2011, 09:43 AM
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Travis Moen
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Lol at you thinking we are contenders. We have as much chance to miss the playoffs than we have to make them.

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06-21-2011, 09:47 AM
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Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfan68 View Post
If you guys can keep your D healthy for next year I would say you are a contender. The bruins had their hands full and you guys were injured.

Your forechecking was relentless. It was a good series and one that belongs on the mantle with the rest of great rivalry. I love it when our 2 teams play regular season or playoffs. Always fun the games are.
Too bad more of our fans can't even recognize this..

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06-21-2011, 09:57 AM
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Shoebottom
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you guys need better forwards. Don't let your success against the stanley cup winners cloud your judgement. Habs were exceptionally motivated against the Bs after the MaxPac incident and the 8-0 drubbing. Your pp was hot. But your top line was like -6 for the series. If not for your pp, Chara being sick, and Thomas being very shaky early on, this could've been a 4 or 5 game series.

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