I don't think it's necessary to have as much as 1.2M left in cap space, but you do need a little bit of wiggle room to make roster moves during the season. We should know that by experience after all. Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo, Metropolit and Väänänen to the waiver wire and inserting David Sloane and Jamie Fritsch into the lineup...
I didn't see what was edited there, but I think you two might actually be more in agreement than you think. DUHockey had a 700k cap space in his roster, so I guess he just disagrees with Fulton's call for 1M+, not the idea that you need some (fairly significant) space to be able to work around injuries and such.
For me, I try to leave around 500k whenever I give an attempt at GM armchairing.
Here is how the Flyers fit under the cap for next season.
-Move Carle and Versteeg at the draft for picks
-Waive Leighton and Walker
-Place Lapperiere on LTIR
-Resign Leino at 3 year 3 mil per
-Resign Powe, Nodl and Sesito to their qualifying offers (10% raise from last season)
-Sign Bryzgalov to his 5 year 5.5 mil cap hit contract.
-Call up Wellwood, Holmstrom, Gustafsson, Marshall and Sesito
You are left with roughly 600 k in cap space with a 23 man roster
FORWARDS
Ville Leino ($3.000m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)
Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.715m)
Ben Holmstrom ($0.750m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Darroll Powe ($0.735m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Tom Sestito ($0.630m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kevin Marshall ($0.845m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m)
/ Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.500m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)
There is really nothing to be confused about, you are wrong plain and simple.
By the way, the link you provided was for cap space remaining by the end of the season for those teams, not to start the season.
My "confused" statement was entirely separate from my earlier statement.
Would you care to refute my argument rather than just being rude and telling me I am wrong? I welcome you to the boards, and tell you it's great to have a newbie who seems to be excited to contribute, and you just start spouting that I'm wrong. Way to endear yourself to a group of people.
Please explain to me then why we need 1million + in cap space?
Because carrying a roster of 20 skaters plus the ability to use LTIR if we were to need a callup makes all the sense in the world.
And again, I'm not advocating having zero wiggle room. I'm just saying, I think carrying 1 million+ is just too much with the roster we are trying to put out there.
The Metropolit, Vaananen, Upshall, and ATO contract occurances were ANAMOLIES thanks to Homer's idiocy. He mismanaged LTIR.
There is really nothing to be confused about, you are wrong plain and simple.
Actually, I'm pretty sure you are wrong.
I'm assuming you and everyone else has Laperriere on LTIR. People seem to think that means his cap hit is simply just gone. But that is not the case. What LTIR does is allow a team to exceed the cap by what that player is making minus whatever cap space it has left. So having any savings under the cap would be whipped out anyway.
Laperriere's cap hit for next year is roughly 1.166 million.
If you enter the season with Lappy on LTIR with 900k under the cap, then you are actually over the cap by 266k but are allowed to exceed the cap by 266k.
If you enter the season with Lappy on LTIR with 100k under the cap, then you are actually over the cap by 1.066 mill, but are allowed to exeed the cap by 1.066 mill.
So entering the season with excess cap space for safety is useless. It would immediately by whipped out anyway.
My "confused" statement was entirely separate from my earlier statement.
Ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9
Would you care to refute my argument rather than just being rude and telling me I am wrong?
I apologize for being rude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9
I welcome you to the boards, and tell you it's great to have a newbie who seems to be excited to contribute, and you just start spouting that I'm wrong.
I appreciate that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9
Way to endear yourself to a group of people.
I am here to talk Flyers hockey, not win a popularity contest. I say what's on my mind, sometimes that offends people. If that happens, oh well. I'll admit (in hindsight) when I am a bit harsh, as I did in apologizing above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9
Please explain to me then why we need 1million + in cap space?
First of all, the thing that spiked this entire "argument" is that there were people with offseason plans leaving the Flyers with as little as 300K, 200K, and I even saw a plan or two with less than 100K in cap space. Do you honestly feel that that is realistic? It isn't, and it's fact.
Second, I said that it is in a team's best interests to have a buffer up against the cap of AROUND 800K - 1.2 million. It protects against a rash of injuries and the need to call up numerous players throughout the season, as well as providing the team with more felxibility to make moves as the season goes. In addition to this, even the NHL teams who spend "right up to the cap" leave themselves around this much for the very reasons I stated above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9
Because carrying a roster of 20 skaters plus the ability to use LTIR if we were to need a callup makes all the sense in the world.
I don't know them exactly, but the rules for the use of LTIR are complicated. For example, if someone is injured you can't just throw them on LTIR right away. They will count against the cap for a while, and every time a player is injuried for a week or two here or a week or two there, they count against the cap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9
And again, I'm not advocating having zero wiggle room. I'm just saying, I think carrying 1 million+ is just too much with the roster we are trying to put out there.
That's fine if you think 1 million is too much. I disagree, but I won't argue anything in regards to that because at a certain point it becomes opinion. There is no opinion involved with 500K or less, and certainlty these plans with 200K or less. That simply doesn't work and you have yet to answer me as to whether or not you agree with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9
The Metropolit, Vaananen, Upshall, and ATO contract occurances were ANAMOLIES thanks to Homer's idiocy. He mismanaged LTIR.
That is my point exactly. Holmgren didn't leave the team enough salary cap space heading into the season and as the season wore on and we were nailed with injuries, the cap caught up to him, which caused him to have waive Metropolit and Vaananen, AND GIVE PHOENIX a second round pick for the Upshall / Carcillo trade. That is what the additional cap space to start the season is there for, to protect against being decimated by injuries and having to use up valuable cap dollars in the process because of that.
I'm assuming you and everyone else has Laperriere on LTIR. People seem to think that means his cap hit is simply just gone. But that is not the case. What LTIR does is allow a team to exceed the cap by what that player is making minus whatever cap space it has left. So having any savings under the cap would be whipped out anyway.
Laperriere's cap hit for next year is roughly 1.166 million.
If you enter the season with Lappy on LTIR with 900k under the cap, then you are actually over the cap by 266k but are allowed to exceed the cap by 266k.
If you enter the season with Lappy on LTIR with 100k under the cap, then you are actually over the cap by 1.066 mill, but are allowed to exeed the cap by 1.066 mill.
So entering the season with excess cap space for safety is useless. It would immediately by whipped out anyway.
I am not 100% sure but I am pretty sure you are incorrect. I honestly don't care enough about it though to spend an hour of my life trying to translate the CBA rules which were written by lawyers and damn near impossible for anyone to understand beside a lawyer. I know the cap rules as it relates to LTIR are extremely complex, but just by using common sense (and maybe I shouldn't since lawyers write this crap) if any team put someone on LTIR and lost any available cap space that they had that would make absolutely no sense at all.
That is my point exactly. Holmgren didn't leave the team enough salary cap space heading into the season and as the season wore on and we were nailed with injuries, the cap caught up to him, which caused him to have waive Metropolit and Vaananen, AND GIVE PHOENIX a second round pick for the Upshall / Carcillo trade. That is what the additional cap space to start the season is there for, to protect against being decimated by injuries and having to use up valuable cap dollars in the process because of that.
He left more than enough cap space heading into that season, he just immediately nuked it all by trading for Matt Carle by using the LTIR space offered by Briere. He also (idiotically) called up Randy Jones and paid half his salary for him to go and play with the Kings.
I am not 100% sure but I am pretty sure you are incorrect. I honestly don't care enough about it though to spend an hour of my life trying to translate the CBA rules which were written by lawyers and damn near impossible for anyone to understand beside a lawyer. I know the cap rules as it relates to LTIR are extremely complex, but just by using common sense (and maybe I shouldn't since lawyers write this crap) if any team put someone on LTIR and lost any available cap space that they had that would make absolutely no sense at all.
You don't lose the cap space, but the problem with putting Lappy on last year was because by putting him on LTIR there was no way he was ever going to come off and thus you lost some potential flexibility (not that there was really any flexibility to begin with there).
LTIR is pretty straightforward. LTIR allows you to go over the daily limit by that players cap space as long as the player is on LTIR. That's all it does. Where people get confused is in the belief that this is similar to actual cap space, which isn't true. Actual cap space accrues and allows you to potentially take on a pro-rated contract down the line (we did this with Versteeg this past year).
LTIR does not accrue... it's there purely to replace an injured player, and nothing else.
Assuming a $62.4M Cap and a Bonus Cushion... Lappy being able to be placed on LTIR by the NHL, and Carle being able to be moved for picks/prospects... Walker, Leighton, Shelley being waived (Walker already done IIRC)... RFAs either signed on the cheap, or released/rights traded... O'Donnell talked into staying another season at a Home Team Discount.
I've been able to keep the Core in place with the main loss being Carle... and Leino not signed, UNLESS Versteeg can be moved for picks/prospects also and Leino signed for around his numbers.
Granted the depth is gone with only seven top nine forwards and five reliable veteran D-men... But the farmhands are given a chance to prove heir worth and the goaltending is solid... and the core is still there.
There is a full 23 man roster BUT little wiggle room under the Cap... and hopefully the System can be better restocked... although Comcast would have to accept eating some NHL dollars buried in the AHL and a few players will have to be buried there if no one will take them on waivers or cheap trade.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Kris Versteeg ($3.083m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Ben Holmstrom ($0.750m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Daroll Powe ($0.800m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / / Andreas Nodl ($0.900m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Sean O'Donnell ($1.000m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m)
/ Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / bryz ($5.500m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,589,432; BONUSES: $1,825,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $635,568
Okay, quoting myself here and tweaking (using most of the same principles) to fit into $64M Cap that is expected to be announced I believe they can now keep Carle and still have an almost $600K cushion.
Also... If Homer wants to keep Carle and Leino he can move Versteeg and sign Ville for the same $3.083M or even maybe a little less.
EDIT: I have deleted my roster due to a typo that gave them $900K more and also because it had the Bonus Cushion... I redid it but had to unfortunately move Carle... So in a nutshell, I was mistaken and it cannot be done as I thought it could... The revised roster can be found on page 17.
Okay, quoting myself here and tweaking (using most of the same principles) to fit into $64M Cap that is expected to be announced I believe they can now keep Carle and still have an almost $600K cushion.
Also... If Homer wants to keep Carle and Leino he can move Versteeg and sign Ville for the same $3.083M or even maybe a little less.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Andreas Nodl ($0.900m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Kris Versteeg[or Leino] ($3.083m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Darroll Powe ($0.800m)
Ben Holmstrom ($0.750m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($3.200m)
Chris Pronger ($4.921m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / O'Donnell ($0.100m)
/ Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Bryz ($5.500m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,226,932; BONUSES: $1,825,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $598,068
Why the **** is OD 100K? I don't even think that's possible in the NHL, other than claiming on waiver wire. Also, I think Wellwood has a much bigger chance to be in the main 12 forwards over Read. He's at least played with the Flyers, and looked great with Richards. I have literally seen nothing about Read, but I've seen how Wellwood plays, and I love it.
I am not 100% sure but I am pretty sure you are incorrect. I honestly don't care enough about it though to spend an hour of my life trying to translate the CBA rules which were written by lawyers and damn near impossible for anyone to understand beside a lawyer. I know the cap rules as it relates to LTIR are extremely complex, but just by using common sense (and maybe I shouldn't since lawyers write this crap) if any team put someone on LTIR and lost any available cap space that they had that would make absolutely no sense at all.
Coppy is actually completely right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulton44
Ok.
I apologize for being rude.
I appreciate that.
I am here to talk Flyers hockey, not win a popularity contest. I say what's on my mind, sometimes that offends people. If that happens, oh well. I'll admit (in hindsight) when I am a bit harsh, as I did in apologizing above.
Np. I can appreciate that as well. I appreciate the apology.
Quote:
First of all, the thing that spiked this entire "argument" is that there were people with offseason plans leaving the Flyers with as little as 300K, 200K, and I even saw a plan or two with less than 100K in cap space. Do you honestly feel that that is realistic? It isn't, and it's fact.
Yes I do, and I already explained at a high level why that is the case.
Quote:
Second, I said that it is in a team's best interests to have a buffer up against the cap of AROUND 800K - 1.2 million. It protects against a rash of injuries and the need to call up numerous players throughout the season, as well as providing the team with more felxibility to make moves as the season goes. In addition to this, even the NHL teams who spend "right up to the cap" leave themselves around this much for the very reasons I stated above.
This is what LTIR is for.
Quote:
I don't know them exactly, but the rules for the use of LTIR are complicated. For example, if someone is injured you can't just throw them on LTIR right away. They will count against the cap for a while, and every time a player is injuried for a week or two here or a week or two there, they count against the cap.
That's fine if you think 1 million is too much. I disagree, but I won't argue anything in regards to that because at a certain point it becomes opinion. There is no opinion involved with 500K or less, and certainlty these plans with 200K or less. That simply doesn't work and you have yet to answer me as to whether or not you agree with that.
Firstly, you have to stop throwing around "opinion" and "fact" so much. You blindly draw the line at opinion and fact where it is convenient for you so you can tell me that I'm wrong, and yet your claims are factual? Please.
Secondly, Coppy is right on LTIR. I DO understand how LTIR works. In fact many of us on these boards, spend a lot of time combing through the fine print of the CBA to understand such things. I've actually read the entire CBA before. I also probably open it up to reference something weekly. I have a copy saved to my personal computer and my work computer. Overkill? Yea, definitely. My point is, you clearly don't understand the intricacies and you are acting high and mighty claiming I, and others, are wrong.
You clearly don't understand how LTIR works. Do you even understand that the cap is calculated daily? And that for every day you are under the cap you are "banking" that cap space, to be used at a later date. So that later in the season, you can very well be exceeding the "daily limit"?
For example, let's say the Flyers wanted to call up Matt Read at some point, and they have 300k in cap space (yearly value. And I mean true cap space, not LTIR exceptions). Read makes 900k annually. Simply put, for every 3 days that Read ISN'T called up, they can call him up for one. So if at the end of November we have an injury, and Lavi decides his 13th forward isn't cutting it, we can call up Read for approximately 20 days.
Quote:
That is my point exactly. Holmgren didn't leave the team enough salary cap space heading into the season and as the season wore on and we were nailed with injuries, the cap caught up to him, which caused him to have waive Metropolit and Vaananen, AND GIVE PHOENIX a second round pick for the Upshall / Carcillo trade. That is what the additional cap space to start the season is there for, to protect against being decimated by injuries and having to use up valuable cap dollars in the process because of that.
Holmgren left PLENTY of cap space. The problem was, he completely and utterly misused LTIR (Something you admit to not understanding). The Flyers had a rash of injuries in the pre-season (Parent and Jones IIRC). Later, Eminger was crapping the bed and he decided to trade for Carle, and later Alberts. That was probably ~4.5ish million he added in payroll, to replace 2 guys (Parent and Jones) that were coming back. That's just silly.
Looking at today's team. If Meszaros gets hurt for the long term, you LTIR him and call up Marshall. When Mesz gets back, you send Marshall down. You only really run into problems if you add salary that you can't get rid of, for players that are coming back.
What situation are you fearing that we need 1 million in cap space at the start of the year, when we are rostering 20 skaters? There are inherent methods in place to handle injuries.
I am not 100% sure but I am pretty sure you are incorrect. I honestly don't care enough about it though to spend an hour of my life trying to translate the CBA rules which were written by lawyers and damn near impossible for anyone to understand beside a lawyer. I know the cap rules as it relates to LTIR are extremely complex, but just by using common sense (and maybe I shouldn't since lawyers write this crap) if any team put someone on LTIR and lost any available cap space that they had that would make absolutely no sense at all.
Capgeek:
"Just because a player is on LTIR does not automatically grant the team extra cap space. In the event a player is placed on LTIR, his cap hit still counts toward the team's overall cap payroll. Relief only comes if replacing the player's salary pushes the team's cap payroll to date over the cap. The amount of relief is limited to the amount the team has gone over the cap, not the entire amount of the injured player's salary. "
You don't lose the cap space, but the problem with putting Lappy on last year was because by putting him on LTIR there was no way he was ever going to come off and thus you lost some potential flexibility (not that there was really any flexibility to begin with there).
LTIR is pretty straightforward. LTIR allows you to go over the daily limit by that players cap space as long as the player is on LTIR. That's all it does. Where people get confused is in the belief that this is similar to actual cap space, which isn't true. Actual cap space accrues and allows you to potentially take on a pro-rated contract down the line (we did this with Versteeg this past year).
LTIR does not accrue... it's there purely to replace an injured player, and nothing else.
Totally agree... and of course the term 'Banked' can also be used if it makes it any easier to get across.
Homer hated the situation with Rathje being an albatross... but Lappy is only 1/3 the albatross and the alternative with him is to carry his almost $1.17M with no LTIR relief due to his being an over 35 player. If the NHL doesn't allow him on LTIR and forces his retirement, the Flyers are screwed... Rathje a least made a stab at returning to at least one camp; Lappy sounded at the Briere Golf event to say he is not calling it quits -- which I believe is for the LTIR status only -- but I wonder if he will report to camp and gently go through he motions to grease the skids for the NHL to look the other way.
Totally agree... and of course the term 'Banked' can also be used if it makes it any easier to get across.
Homer hated the situation with Rathje being an albatross... but Lappy is only 1/3 the albatross and the alternative with him is to carry his almost $1.17M with no LTIR relief due to his being an over 35 player. If the NHL doesn't allow him on LTIR and forces his retirement, the Flyers are screwed... Rathje a least made a stab at returning to at least one camp; Lappy sounded at the Briere Golf event to say he is not calling it quits -- which I believe is for the LTIR status only -- but I wonder if he will report to camp and gently go through he motions to grease the skids for the NHL to look the other way.
My sense from interviews is that he really want to play, but has come to terms with the fact that he can't. Who knows how that will play out in camp... because I'm definitely concerned the NHL won't let the Flyers put him on LTIR for another year at this point.
My sense from interviews is that he really want to play, but has come to terms with the fact that he can't. Who knows how that will play out in camp... because I'm definitely concerned the NHL won't let the Flyers put him on LTIR for another year at this point.
I was taking for granted the fact that we'd be able to utilize that LTIR if necessary. You really think there's a chance we won't be granted it?
Why the **** is OD 100K? I don't even think that's possible in the NHL, other than claiming on waiver wire. Also, I think Wellwood has a much bigger chance to be in the main 12 forwards over Read. He's at least played with the Flyers, and looked great with Richards. I have literally seen nothing about Read, but I've seen how Wellwood plays, and I love it.
I placed Read there because I heard them rave about his chances at the STH Town Meeting and Homer seems high on him... it is all dependant on his play at Camp. I could have just as easily placed Wellwood there... most important thing was to get them on the 23 man roster under the Cap.
OD is a UFA and can be signed at whatever he agrees to... He could retire and could return if he feels like he can and that the Flyers can win the Cup... My guess is that if he wants to play another year and is not going to test the Open Market then $1M should do the trick... He knows the Area and seems to like it here... If not Guss could enter the picture at an even less Cap hit.
The important thing to me was getting Carle under and one of either Leino or Versteeg.
My sense from interviews is that he really want to play, but has come to terms with the fact that he can't. Who knows how that will play out in camp... because I'm definitely concerned the NHL won't let the Flyers put him on LTIR for another year at this point.
I agree... If they want to be hardass about it due to the Cap Contract shenanigans they can easily stop the LTIR... But, if they want to be understanding and look at it as just an over 35 guy that had a unfortunate accident and was in no way an attempt to circumvent the CBA they could look the other way. To me he spirit of the 35 rule was not for these cases rather to stop circumvention by long Cap friendly contract... which this was clearly not.
I agree... If they want to be hardass about it due to the Cap Contract shenanigans they can easily stop the LTIR... But, if they want to be understanding and look at it as just an over 35 guy that had a unfortunate accident and was in no way an attempt to circumvent the CBA they could look the other way. To me he spirit of the 35 rule was not for these cases rather to stop circumvention by long Cap friendly contract... which this was clearly not.
But, yeah I'm worried also.
If they screw us, I'm going to be furious. They let the Devils get by with Mogilny who had a degenerative, chronic hip injury when the Devils signed him to a 35+ deal... and then his hip ended his career. That was a *ing joke. This is because Lappy took a slapper directly to the face and contused his brain.
So... yeah, if we get the shaft here it'll be worth raising hell over, because we'll have been jobbed.
I'm actually all for them being strict about these situations within reason, but Mogilny should have counted against the Devs cap (which would have *ed 'em royally)... and the fact that they let 'em off for that one, means shouldn't be able to get us for this one unless they're complete hypocrites.
I think we'll be fine with Lappy as long as he makes an appearance at training camp. If he had more years left on his deal, they might decide to take a hard stance on it, but the one year makes it a bit easier.
If they screw us, I'm going to be furious. They let the Devils get by with Mogilny who had a degenerative, chronic hip injury when the Devils signed him to a 35+ deal... and then his hip ended his career. That was a *ing joke. This is because Lappy took a slapper directly to the face and contused his brain.
So... yeah, if we get the shaft here it'll be worth raising hell over, because we'll have been jobbed.
I'm actually all for them being strict about these situations within reason, but Mogilny should have counted against the Devs cap (which would have *ed 'em royally)... and the fact that they let 'em off for that one, means shouldn't be able to get us for this one unless they're complete hypocrites.
I hear ya and see it that way also... I just worry about the Kovi and other contracts, and going forward they will tighten the screws for a season or two on all suggested CBA circumvention attempts... even though it is a completely different circumstance altogether.
And then there is the fact that it is the Flyers -- call me paranoid, I know I'm begging for it haha -- and while is will not openly be a factor, it may indeed bring little sympathy our way.
If Lappy can do some Camp activities without harming his future it may be a help.
I think we'll be fine with Lappy as long as he makes an appearance at training camp. If he had more years left on his deal, they might decide to take a hard stance on it, but the one year makes it a bit easier.
Lappy being universally loved may also help... Everybody love Lappy.
