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Old
08-25-2005, 08:51 AM
  #26
wint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
I've come to a conclusion. We have to capitulate and give in to Roberto's demands.
I would love to just get this over with and sign Luongo. But there's a problem with capitulating like this.

Suppose Horton has a great year, say 30 goals and 25 assists. He's an RFA. If Luongo's making $6.5 million as an RFA, why can't Horton ask for big bucks? Bouwmeester too. Goalies and skaters are not used as comparables in arbitration cases, but if players see a talented guy get an enormous contract after a great year (but before he is award-winning...or even winning), why not demand a slightly-less-than-enormous contract yourself?

A Luongo signing would not occur in a vacuum, either league-wide or team-wide. Being loaded with promising young talents becomes useless if you set a high bar for RFA signings. Luongo will not be the exception, he will become the rule in future negotiations. The Panthers will have stated that a player with Luongo's level of NHL accomplishments, statistics, awards and playoff experience is deserving of an enormous contract.

Worst of all, Keenan will have shown that if you demand huge money, complain, use the press to threaten to demand a trade or even hold out, eventually Keenan will give you an above market-value deal. Basically, just giving in to whatever Luongo wants could very well result in upset young stars, holdouts, or lost players every single year from now on. Isn't that exactly what we're trying to avoid with Luongo in the first place?

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08-25-2005, 09:53 AM
  #27
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Every team in the NHL right now is probably calling you guys. What a loss...shame on you Keenan. This is truly a sad day in Pantherland. I can't believe he would take his franchise goalie to arbitration and low ball him....man...I hope he comes over to Edmonton.

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08-25-2005, 10:04 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilers4life
Every team in the NHL right now is probably calling you guys. What a loss...shame on you Keenan. This is truly a sad day in Pantherland. I can't believe he would take his franchise goalie to arbitration and low ball him....man...I hope he comes over to Edmonton.
Oilers4Life...how do you call $25 Million over 5 years low balling Luongo! I like Luongo but he obviously has Luongo's interests far above what is best for the panthers.....
Thunderheart

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Old
08-25-2005, 11:40 AM
  #29
Heimy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wint
I would love to just get this over with and sign Luongo. But there's a problem with capitulating like this.

Suppose Horton has a great year, say 30 goals and 25 assists. He's an RFA. If Luongo's making $6.5 million as an RFA, why can't Horton ask for big bucks? Bouwmeester too. Goalies and skaters are not used as comparables in arbitration cases, but if players see a talented guy get an enormous contract after a great year (but before he is award-winning...or even winning), why not demand a slightly-less-than-enormous contract yourself?

A Luongo signing would not occur in a vacuum, either league-wide or team-wide. Being loaded with promising young talents becomes useless if you set a high bar for RFA signings. Luongo will not be the exception, he will become the rule in future negotiations. The Panthers will have stated that a player with Luongo's level of NHL accomplishments, statistics, awards and playoff experience is deserving of an enormous contract.

Worst of all, Keenan will have shown that if you demand huge money, complain, use the press to threaten to demand a trade or even hold out, eventually Keenan will give you an above market-value deal. Basically, just giving in to whatever Luongo wants could very well result in upset young stars, holdouts, or lost players every single year from now on. Isn't that exactly what we're trying to avoid with Luongo in the first place?


True enough that eventually we're going to face some very tough problems wint. And when Horton, like Luongo has been the 29th lowest paid RWer of 30 and has clearly proven he's worth more we'll need to give Horton a big raise. But Luongo hasn't just had one great year. Take a look at this comparison...


22 yrs

Luongo ~ 47 GP 2.44 GAA 0.920 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 45 GP 2.90 GAA 0.900 Pct

23 yrs

Luongo ~ 58 GP 2.77 GAA 0.915 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.47 GAA 0.908 Pct

24 yrs

Luongo ~ 65 GP 2.71 GAA 0.918 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 54 GP 2.53 GAA 0.912 Pct

25 yrs

Luongo ~ 73 GP 2.43 GAA 0.931 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.71 GAA 0.906 Pct

Up to 25 yrs

Luongo ~ 243 GP 2.56 GAA 0.921 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 241 GP 2.71 GAA 0.903 Pct


I do realize this will create almost as many problems as it solves but it's a matter of priorities. Like I said, I'm sure management didn't plan for this but this IS the reality we face and it is the new CBA agreement that everyone agreed to. Under a salary cap every team will have to face these kinds of difficult decisions sooner or later...who should we sacrifice? Where would we rather have a hole, in net of on the wing? But first and foremost I'll base my decisions on performance and importance, not potential.

On the other hand, after Silent Jay's absurd demand I'd trade his over-rated arse yesterday and get tough defensive veterans that cause fear and command respect. Now he's demanding $8-9 million over 3 years? I put him on the block and don't look back. Hell, Silent Jay has shown more attitude with this demand than he's shown in any shift he's taken as a Panther.

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:36 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
True enough that eventually we're going to face some very tough problems wint. And when Horton, like Luongo has been the 29th lowest paid RWer of 30 and has clearly proven he's worth more we'll need to give Horton a big raise. But Luongo hasn't just had one great year. Take a look at this comparison...


22 yrs

Luongo ~ 47 GP 2.44 GAA 0.920 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 45 GP 2.90 GAA 0.900 Pct

23 yrs

Luongo ~ 58 GP 2.77 GAA 0.915 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.47 GAA 0.908 Pct

24 yrs

Luongo ~ 65 GP 2.71 GAA 0.918 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 54 GP 2.53 GAA 0.912 Pct

25 yrs

Luongo ~ 73 GP 2.43 GAA 0.931 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.71 GAA 0.906 Pct

Up to 25 yrs

Luongo ~ 243 GP 2.56 GAA 0.921 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 241 GP 2.71 GAA 0.903 Pct


I do realize this will create almost as many problems as it solves but it's a matter of priorities. Like I said, I'm sure management didn't plan for this but this IS the reality we face and it is the new CBA agreement that everyone agreed to. Under a salary cap every team will have to face these kinds of difficult decisions sooner or later...who should we sacrifice? Where would we rather have a hole, in net of on the wing? But first and foremost I'll base my decisions on performance and importance, not potential.

On the other hand, after Silent Jay's absurd demand I'd trade his over-rated arse yesterday and get tough defensive veterans that cause fear and command respect. Now he's demanding $8-9 million over 3 years? I put him on the block and don't look back. Hell, Silent Jay has shown more attitude with this demand than he's shown in any shift he's taken as a Panther.
Let's really compare now...and to be fair, Roy started playing in an era where scoring was much more proficient and the defensive trap wasn't as abundant than it is now:

20 years old
ROY (MTL) - 1985-86: 47 GP (23-18-3) 2651 MIN 148 GA 1185 SVS 1 SO 3.35 .875
LUONGO (NYI) - 1999-00: 24 GP (7-14-1) 1292 MIN 70 GA 730 SVS 1 SO 3.24 .904
Noteworthy: Roy wins Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup Trophies

21 years old
ROY (MTL) - 86/87: 46 GP (22-16-6) 2686 MIN 131 GA 1210 SVS 1 SO 2.93 .892
LUONGO (FLA) - 00/01: 47 GP (12-24-7) 2628 MIN 107 GA 1333 SVS 5 SO 2.44 .920
Noteworthy: Roy wins Jennings Trophy/ Luongo on his 2nd team

22 years old
ROY (MTL) - 87/88: 45 GP (23-12-9) 2586 MIN 125 GA 1248 SVS 3 SO 2.9 .900
LUONGO (FLA)-01/02 - 58 GP (16-33-4) 3030 MIN 140 GA 1653 SVS 4 SO 2.77 .915
Noteworthy: Roy wins 2nd Jennings Trophy

23 years old
ROY (MTL) - 88/89: 48 GP (33-5-6) 2744 MIN 113 GA 1228 SVS 4 SO 2.47 .908
LUONGO (FLA) - 02/03 - 65 GP (20-34-7) 3627 164 GA 2011 SVS 6 SO 2.71 .918
Noteworthy: Roy wins Vezina Trophy

24 years old
ROY (MTL) - 89/90: 54 GP (31-16-5) 3173 MIN 134 GA 1524 SVS 3 SO 2.53 .912
LUONGO (FLA) - 03/04: 72 GP (25-33-14) 4252 172 GA 2475 SVS 7 SO 2.43 .931
Noteworthy: Roy wins 2nd Vezina Trophy / Luongo sets NHL record in saves and finishes 3rd in Vezina voting

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08-25-2005, 02:51 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
True enough that eventually we're going to face some very tough problems wint. And when Horton, like Luongo has been the 29th lowest paid RWer of 30 and has clearly proven he's worth more we'll need to give Horton a big raise. But Luongo hasn't just had one great year. Take a look at this comparison...


22 yrs

Luongo ~ 47 GP 2.44 GAA 0.920 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 45 GP 2.90 GAA 0.900 Pct

23 yrs

Luongo ~ 58 GP 2.77 GAA 0.915 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.47 GAA 0.908 Pct

24 yrs

Luongo ~ 65 GP 2.71 GAA 0.918 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 54 GP 2.53 GAA 0.912 Pct

25 yrs

Luongo ~ 73 GP 2.43 GAA 0.931 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.71 GAA 0.906 Pct

Up to 25 yrs

Luongo ~ 243 GP 2.56 GAA 0.921 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 241 GP 2.71 GAA 0.903 Pct


I do realize this will create almost as many problems as it solves but it's a matter of priorities. Like I said, I'm sure management didn't plan for this but this IS the reality we face and it is the new CBA agreement that everyone agreed to. Under a salary cap every team will have to face these kinds of difficult decisions sooner or later...who should we sacrifice? Where would we rather have a hole, in net of on the wing? But first and foremost I'll base my decisions on performance and importance, not potential.

On the other hand, after Silent Jay's absurd demand I'd trade his over-rated arse yesterday and get tough defensive veterans that cause fear and command respect. Now he's demanding $8-9 million over 3 years? I put him on the block and don't look back. Hell, Silent Jay has shown more attitude with this demand than he's shown in any shift he's taken as a Panther.
Luongo ain't no Patrick Roy and never will be. Roy won the Stanley Cup as a rookie on a mediocre team for christ-sakes.

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:52 PM
  #32
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Forgot the overall comparisons:

Upto Age 25:
Roy (MTL): 240 GP (132-67-29) 13840 MIN 651 GA 6395 SVS 12 SO 2.84 .897
Noteworthy: Stanley Cup, 2 Vezinas, 2 Jennings, Conn Smythe and 60+ playoff games

Luongo(NYI/FLA) 266 GP (80-138-33) 14829 MIN 653 GA 8202 SVS 23 SO 2.72 .918
Noteworthy: No Trophies or playoff experience

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Old
08-25-2005, 03:29 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nab77
Luongo ain't no Patrick Roy and never will be. Roy won the Stanley Cup as a rookie on a mediocre team for christ-sakes.
Though I won't agree with the whole "mediocre team" thing (and plead ignorance in regard to the '86 run), I have to give Nab77 one thing, Heimy. The numbers can't be compared, as the league was completely different back then. No trap, no left-wing lock, no hulking 6'7" 240lbs. defensemen. Forwards who scored 120+ points a season (including Gretz and Mario who each were capable of 200 points). Smaller equipment.

All in all, the save% and GAA aren't comparable straight up. If you factor in the differences, Roy's probably got a significant edge. But the team was probably older and a bit better too, since the Panthers, whether we care to admit it or not, iced a 75% AHL team last season (between rookies who should have been in the minors to develop and other players who weren't really NHL talent - hell, we finished the season with Kamil Piros and Ty Jones in the lineup!).

Saying Luongo "never will be" Patrick Roy (opinion if taken figuratively as intended) is highly debatable and subject to one's expectations of what Luongo will have had to accomplish to be comparable to Roy. He could finish his career with better numbers and 200 wins more than Roy and people would still say Roy was better and find ways to justify it, so that opinion simply can be ignored by those who want to believe otherwise.

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Old
08-25-2005, 07:16 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
True enough that eventually we're going to face some very tough problems wint. And when Horton, like Luongo has been the 29th lowest paid RWer of 30 and has clearly proven he's worth more we'll need to give Horton a big raise. But Luongo hasn't just had one great year. Take a look at this comparison...


22 yrs

Luongo ~ 47 GP 2.44 GAA 0.920 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 45 GP 2.90 GAA 0.900 Pct

23 yrs

Luongo ~ 58 GP 2.77 GAA 0.915 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.47 GAA 0.908 Pct

24 yrs

Luongo ~ 65 GP 2.71 GAA 0.918 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 54 GP 2.53 GAA 0.912 Pct

25 yrs

Luongo ~ 73 GP 2.43 GAA 0.931 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.71 GAA 0.906 Pct

Up to 25 yrs

Luongo ~ 243 GP 2.56 GAA 0.921 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 241 GP 2.71 GAA 0.903 Pct


I do realize this will create almost as many problems as it solves but it's a matter of priorities. Like I said, I'm sure management didn't plan for this but this IS the reality we face and it is the new CBA agreement that everyone agreed to. Under a salary cap every team will have to face these kinds of difficult decisions sooner or later...who should we sacrifice? Where would we rather have a hole, in net of on the wing? But first and foremost I'll base my decisions on performance and importance, not potential.

On the other hand, after Silent Jay's absurd demand I'd trade his over-rated arse yesterday and get tough defensive veterans that cause fear and command respect. Now he's demanding $8-9 million over 3 years? I put him on the block and don't look back. Hell, Silent Jay has shown more attitude with this demand than he's shown in any shift he's taken as a Panther.
luongo has set a record for saves and shots faced, made an all star appearance, and been a vezina finalist.


by the time roy was 25 he had won two jennings trophies, two vezinas, a trico goaltending award (?), been elected to the all rookie team, been to three all star games (two first team votings), won a conn smythe trophy, and a cup. using GAA and SP as a comparison is misleading when comparing 1986-87 against 2000-2001. that was during the last few years before goalies puffed up and started dressing like the michelin man. this is made clear by roy's two jennings trophies.


5/25 is MORE than fair.

EDIT: i really got to start reading the rest of the posts in the thread before responding. looks like everyone got on you for this one heimy LOL.

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Old
08-25-2005, 07:24 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
True enough that eventually we're going to face some very tough problems wint. And when Horton, like Luongo has been the 29th lowest paid RWer of 30 and has clearly proven he's worth more we'll need to give Horton a big raise. But Luongo hasn't just had one great year. Take a look at this comparison...


22 yrs

Luongo ~ 47 GP 2.44 GAA 0.920 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 45 GP 2.90 GAA 0.900 Pct

23 yrs

Luongo ~ 58 GP 2.77 GAA 0.915 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.47 GAA 0.908 Pct

24 yrs

Luongo ~ 65 GP 2.71 GAA 0.918 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 54 GP 2.53 GAA 0.912 Pct

25 yrs

Luongo ~ 73 GP 2.43 GAA 0.931 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 48 GP 2.71 GAA 0.906 Pct

Up to 25 yrs

Luongo ~ 243 GP 2.56 GAA 0.921 Pct
Roy ~ ~ 241 GP 2.71 GAA 0.903 Pct


I do realize this will create almost as many problems as it solves but it's a matter of priorities. Like I said, I'm sure management didn't plan for this but this IS the reality we face and it is the new CBA agreement that everyone agreed to. Under a salary cap every team will have to face these kinds of difficult decisions sooner or later...who should we sacrifice? Where would we rather have a hole, in net of on the wing? But first and foremost I'll base my decisions on performance and importance, not potential.

On the other hand, after Silent Jay's absurd demand I'd trade his over-rated arse yesterday and get tough defensive veterans that cause fear and command respect. Now he's demanding $8-9 million over 3 years? I put him on the block and don't look back. Hell, Silent Jay has shown more attitude with this demand than he's shown in any shift he's taken as a Panther.

Take out all the horrible examples you've ever seen, look at them and analyse them, this is by far the worst.

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Old
08-25-2005, 10:40 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
who would you say is THE most valuable player to ever to pull a Panthers sweater over his head?
ive given this some thought. its the beezer.

without the JVB we never would have had our finals run. roberto should have taken 5/25.

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08-25-2005, 11:42 PM
  #37
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Please......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
I've come to a conclusion. We have to capitulate and give in to Roberto's demands. Sure it blows but that's the way it is and before you get all pissed, ask yourself this...who would you say is THE most valuable player to ever to pull a Panthers sweater over his head?

The fact that Luongo knows he's a great goalie and wants to be paid as such shouldn't come as any surprise. Yeah his agent is a total phoney and yeah he's asking for a boatload of money and yeah he's handicapping the team by cornering so much of a limited amount of cabbage. But if we're not going to pay Luongo top dollar who ARE we going to pay? Do the Panthers intend to compete in the NHL or not? It isn't as though Luongo is making his demand when we're up against the cap and can't actually meet it. We've got the cap space. Sure it's not what management had planned for but it is what it is. And it IS what they agreed to when they signed the new CBA.

So let's go Cohen...it's time to pony up and settle this squabble. Because any other goalie we could trade for would pale in comparision. And because no other player is on the ice for 60-65 minute a night. And because you were willing to pay Pronger's salary. And because you'll regret losing the best goalie this team has ever seen and likely ever will. And because we'll all understand trading a Bouwmeester who hasn't proven diddly and whose loss would be easier to absorb. And most of all, because the fans need a totally positive vibe after this long, miserable lockout.
Throughout the lockout, one of the speeches the PA and agents gave was that no one was holding a gun to the owner's head to sign the big contract. So, now, when an owner buckles down and says NO, the agent whines to the media and some fans say, just pay the player what he wants....

Please...... All of this is just business. Plain and simple. Luongo wants as much money as possible and the Panthers want Luongo for the least amount they have to pay him. Guess, what, that's normal. Why pay more than you have to?

It's all part of the CBA that was signed. The Panthers have the option to take Luongo to arbitration and they elected for that option. If Luongo doesn't like it, then in 2 years, when he is eligible for UFA, he can say goodbye to the Panthers.

In the end, 3.2 million is fair for Luongo. It is comparable to the following goalies, whom I personally would put Luongo in the same class as:

Nabokov - 1 Conference finals appearance with the Sharks. 3 playoff round advances in his career and a division title. This year's salary 3.3 million

Giguere - 1 Stanley Cup final appearance with the Ducks. This year's salary 3.99 million

Kiprusoff - Stanley cup final appearance. This year's salary 3 million.

Turco - 1 round advancement and 1 division title as the #1 man. This year's salary 3.2 million

Theodore - 2 playoff round advancements, 1 vezina trophy. Unsigned right now, but his salary last year pro-rated after the 24% rollback, was probably in the low 4 million range.

These are the 5 guys I think Keenan was comparing Luongo to, so for Luongo to get 4 million, that's Giggy and Theo money. Luongo has great #'s in the regular season, but still, playoffs is where guys move from 3 million to 5 million plus. In arbitration, it's hard to Luongo to get 4 million simply because he has no playoff experience. Obviously, not his fault, but the reality is, goalies can't get the big bucks without carrying the team because afterall, they are the most important player in the game. Giggy got the big payday because he got his to to within 1 game of the Cup. Theo won a Vezina as the best goalie in the league and backstopped the Habs to the 2nd round twice.

For now, best thing for Luongo to do is to come out and have a great year to earn that big payday for next year. If he doesn't want to be in Florida after he hits UFA, that's fine and his choice.

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08-25-2005, 11:47 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderheart
Oilers4Life...how do you call $25 Million over 5 years low balling Luongo! I like Luongo but he obviously has Luongo's interests far above what is best for the panthers.....
Thunderheart
My facts may be wrong, but I thought he was given that offer after he was low balled the first week of discussion.

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08-26-2005, 10:06 AM
  #39
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There's no way 5yrs 25 million is lowballing, i thought giving 4 million was generous, i thought for what Luongo has accomplished to this point in his career he should've been slotted at 3.5 mill. I think him and his agent are being jerks, and we better hope luongo has a strong year so we can get what we can for him next year, cause surely he will leave here in free-agency.Anyone know what goaltender free-agents will be available next year?

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08-26-2005, 11:19 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilers4life
My facts may be wrong, but I thought he was given that offer after he was low balled the first week of discussion.
He allegedly was offered $3.4 million initially, and there's no word on the contract duration for that offer. It may be low, but it's $200grand more than he'll be making after a decision by an impartial 3rd party arbitrator. Keenan now says that he was offering $20 for 5 years, or less than the per season amount of that for a one year deal.

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08-26-2005, 09:02 PM
  #41
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I get the feeling we're not disagreeing so much as we're talking past each other so I'll try to put a finer point on what it is I'm trying to convey here.

Either you consider Luongo an elite, franchise goalie or you don't.
Either you believe goaltending is the most important position or you don't.
Either you believe a team should be build from the net out or you don't.

Some of you seem to want to take a hard line against Luongo's demands. Me? I just want to keep him, period. If keeping him means we have to pay him top dollar then ok, pay him. And yes, I do understand a deal like this doesn't happen in a vacuum and sooner or later we will have to cut corners somewhere else, but what player do you assign greater value to than Luongo?

We're recieving plenty of trade offers and there will be plenty more but there has been no feasible offer that solves the problem that would be created by trading Luongo. And since there is no realistic trade option that would solve this problem without weakening us in net, the only solution is retaining Luongo by recognizing him as our franchise player and paying him as such. It isn't a question of who's right or wrong. It isn't about how many Cups he's won or Vezina trophies he's earned. It's whether or not you believe he's capable of winning Cups and Vezinas. It's deciding whether to pay him the amount necessary to keep him a Panther beyond free agency or lose him to the competition.

Luongo isn't some one season wonder. He has improved markedly every season. Last season Luongo had a save percentage of .931 and although he won just 25 games, seven of those wins were by shutout. He shutout teams almost every tenth start and in more than 25% of his wins. Doesn't that start you wondering how many shutouts he might have with a couple of good defensive pairings playing in front of him?

No doubt this team must improve but until some goalie posts a 1.000 save percentage over 70 plus games we're all set in net.


Last edited by Heimy: 08-26-2005 at 11:41 PM.
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08-26-2005, 11:39 PM
  #42
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answers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
Either you consider Luongo an elite, franchise goalie or you don't.
Either you believe goaltending is the most important position or you don't.
Either you believe a team should be build from the net out or you don't.
Franchise goalie, yes. Elite, depends on your definition of elite. He's close, but not there yet.

Yes, goaltending is the most important position and 3.2 million for a 1 year deal puts Luongo into the top 8 of highest paid goalies behind Khabby, Brodeur, Theo (based on his QO, he'll be higher than Luongo), Giggy, Turco, Nabakov, Kirprusoff. All these guys have been to the playoffs. Kipper, backstopped a Flames team that hadn't made the playoffs in 7 years into the #6 spot in the West and achored the team to game 7 of the Cup. So, playoffs play a big factor into the money a goaltender gets. You may disagree with that, but that appears to be the way goaltenders are paid. 2 plus million for being a #1 guy, 3 mlllion plus for some playoff and top end regular season #'s and if you have a lot of playoff success, definately into the elite of any NHL player.

Yes, you build from the net, but you don't bend over backwards and just drop a fat contract blindly.

Quote:
Some of you seem to want to take a hard line against Luongo's demands. Me? I just want to keep him, period. If keeping him means we have to pay him top dollar then ok, pay him. And yes, I do understand a deal like this doesn't happen in a vacuum and sooner or later we will have to cut corners somewhere else, but what player do you assign greater value to than Luongo?
Reality is, and this is the key point, is that if the CURRENT CBA did NOT contain the provision, allowing a TEAM to take a player to arbitration, Luongo probably ends up with a contract over 4 million.

That's exactly how Theo and Giggy are at 4 million now. Giggy, after the run in 2003, was a RFA and he opted NOT to go to arbitration, putting all of the pressure on the Ducks to come up with a contract for their playoff MVP. Giggy had the Leverage.

Same with Theo. He won a Vezina and backstopped the team to the 2nd round. Again, he could have gone to arbitration, but he chose not to and thus put pressure on French speaking Montreal to lockup a home town boy and face of the team.

For Luongo, had the Panthers not had the power to take him to arbitration would have been in a similar situation as Giggy and Theo. How is going to play goal for the Panthers? Florida would have to get a deal done with Luongo, more in his favor. Panthers can't risk playing the season without him, and after seeing Nabokov come back after missing camp and the first couple of weeks of the 2002-2003 season, they'd know they wouldn't want to follow that move.

But, because the Panthers could take Luongo to Arbitration, Luongo had no leverage. He doesn't have any playoff stats to backup his claim for 4 million per season, no matter how great his regular season #'s are. It's all about leverage.

Don't think for 1 second, if the Panthers couldn't take Roberto to arbitration, Luongo wouldn't milk the Panthers for every last dime. He would, just based on his agent's comments and his own. That's fine, because that's how the business side of sports works. I just want everyone to understand it and respect it. If you have the leverage, use it, if you don't, accept it.


Quote:
We're recieving plenty of trade offers and there will be plenty more but there has been no feasible offer that solves the problem that would be created by trading Luongo. And since there is no realistic trade option (at least that I can fathom) that would resolve this problem without diminishing our strength in net, the only viable solution that I see is retaining Luongo by recognizing him as our franchise player and paying him as such. It isn't a question of who's right or wrong. It isn't about how many Cups he's won or Vezina trophies he's earned. It's whether or not you believe he's capable of winning Cups and Vezinas. It's deciding whether to pay him the amount necessary to keep him a Panther beyond free agency or lose him to the competition.
The Panthers will have Luongo's services for the next 2 years. He's got an arbitation settlement for this year. Luongo won't sit out next year, he'll at least sign a 1 year deal. It be crazy to sit out the year before you become a UFA and given that they just lost a year, too big a hit in the pocket book. If Luongo wants to leave town in 2007, that's his choice to make. The supposedly great 2006 Free Agent crop isn't going to happen with Iggy, Thornton, and Lecavalier reupping with their current teams. After this year and the free agency period next summer, Luongo and his agent have to determine, who is going to have the cap room to pay 6 plus million for a #1 goalie. And all of that is dependent on which teams won't have their #1 guy from the previous year under contract.

Quote:
Luongo isn't some one season wonder. He has improved markedly every season. Last season Luongo had a save percentage of .931 and although he won just 25 games, seven of those wins were by shutout. He shutout teams almost every tenth start and in more than 25% of his wins. Doesn't that start you wondering how many shutouts he might have with a couple of good defensive pairings playing in front of him?

No doubt this team must improve but until some goalie posts a 1.000 save percentage over 70 plus games we're all set in net.
True, but still, the big payday for goalies come after they make the playoffs and or have success in the playoffs. That's the way it works.

Iggy got big money after his breakout year in 2001-2002, despite the Flames missing the playoffs. As a forward who plays around 25 minutes a game, there's only so much he can for his team. As a goalie, who plays 75% or more of the games, Luongo has a greater impact on whether the Panthers make the playoffs. It's not a fair system for goalies, but it's the way it is.

And if you are a Panther's fan, keep this in mind, Luongo most likely would have been willing to miss part of this season in order to get the contract he wanted. But, because the Panthers took him to arbitration, he lost that leverage.

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08-27-2005, 12:12 AM
  #43
Heimy
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All your points are sound Street Hawk, and your very last one is probably the reason I'm so adamant about locking him up long term. See, what's bothering me is that I can't tell whether Luongo is committed to staying with the Panthers, and worse, I don't like the vibes I'm getting from him or agent Loopy. I suppose that's why I'm willing to spend top dollar a year ahead of time in this case. Heh, normally I'm not so charitable.

Anyway, I'm gonna cling to the hope that we'll see a deal soon after January 1st.

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08-27-2005, 02:14 AM
  #44
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I think Keenan played this exactly right. This year, we get Luongo for a reasonable $3.2 million.

If Luongo has a great year, fantastic. He will have earned the sky-high long term contract he was going to demand anyway. The RFA salary structure will be maintained because the Panthers will be awarding a big contract to a more established star with only 1 RFA year left and his raise will be smaller (than if he jumped up from $1.8 million).

If Luongo has a rough year, that's still works out well for signing him. Lupien won't be able to demand as close to the max with less-than-stellar stats from 2005-6. And whatever length of deal they settle on, that will be one more year of Luongo than we would have had if Luongo signed it this off-season.

Not to mention the very real possibility that the league-wide revenues come in lower than expected this year, thus lowering both the team and individual cap for next season, in which case Luongo would have to settle for a contract slightly more in line with the new numbers.

Heimy, I agree that Keenan should pay the money it takes to lock Luongo up long-term. But I don't think he made a mistake by not doing it now.

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08-27-2005, 02:48 AM
  #45
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Completely agree with you Street Hawk, especially these points you mentioned......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Hawk
Reality is, and this is the key point, is that if the CURRENT CBA did NOT contain the provision, allowing a TEAM to take a player to arbitration, Luongo probably ends up with a contract over 4 million.

That's exactly how Theo and Giggy are at 4 million now. Giggy, after the run in 2003, was a RFA and he opted NOT to go to arbitration, putting all of the pressure on the Ducks to come up with a contract for their playoff MVP. Giggy had the Leverage.

Same with Theo. He won a Vezina and backstopped the team to the 2nd round. Again, he could have gone to arbitration, but he chose not to and thus put pressure on French speaking Montreal to lockup a home town boy and face of the team.

For Luongo, had the Panthers not had the power to take him to arbitration would have been in a similar situation as Giggy and Theo. How is going to play goal for the Panthers? Florida would have to get a deal done with Luongo, more in his favor. Panthers can't risk playing the season without him, and after seeing Nabokov come back after missing camp and the first couple of weeks of the 2002-2003 season, they'd know they wouldn't want to follow that move.

But, because the Panthers could take Luongo to Arbitration, Luongo had no leverage.

Don't think for 1 second, if the Panthers couldn't take Roberto to arbitration, Luongo wouldn't milk the Panthers for every last dime. He would, just based on his agent's comments and his own. That's fine, because that's how the business side of sports works. I just want everyone to understand it and respect it. If you have the leverage, use it, if you don't, accept it.

The Panthers will have Luongo's services for the next 2 years. He's got an arbitation settlement for this year. Luongo won't sit out next year, he'll at least sign a 1 year deal. It be crazy to sit out the year before you become a UFA and given that they just lost a year, too big a hit in the pocket book.

And if you are a Panther's fan, keep this in mind, Luongo most likely would have been willing to miss part of this season in order to get the contract he wanted. But, because the Panthers took him to arbitration, he lost that leverage.
I have no doubt in my mind, that Lupien would've told Luongo to holdout for the numbers they wanted (Bulin money), had we not taken them to arbitration. Since the Panthers only had McLennan to fall back on, they would have either milked the Panthers for all their worth or forced us to trade Roberto.

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08-27-2005, 07:56 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
All your points are sound Street Hawk, and your very last one is probably the reason I'm so adamant about locking him up long term. See, what's bothering me is that I can't tell whether Luongo is committed to staying with the Panthers, and worse, I don't like the vibes I'm getting from him or agent Loopy. I suppose that's why I'm willing to spend top dollar a year ahead of time in this case. Heh, normally I'm not so charitable.

Anyway, I'm gonna cling to the hope that we'll see a deal soon after January 1st.
I think main reason why Luongo didn't sign a long term contract is that he does not believe that Panthers have a play off calibre team. Now he can wait (or he has to wait) till next year and if by that time Panthers are making the playoffs he will sign long term contract. If Panthers won't make the playoffs, he will leave the team. Leaving meaning he will take team to arbitration, get his another one year contract or he just holds out. Earlier it was mentioned that holding out will hurt the player but I think for example Khabi did very well after 2 (?) seasons long holdout.

JOL

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08-27-2005, 11:23 AM
  #47
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Some might think Keenan played this perfectly but before deciding you're sure he did, read Neal's piece...

------------------------------------------

Panthers won case, but what does that mean?

By DAVID J. NEAL


Less than an hour after the arbitrator's decision came down Thursday, Gilles Lupien, agent for Panthers goalie Roberto Luongo, said everybody should ask the Panthers, ``What did you win?''

Good question -- for both sides.

The Panthers won on the numbers, getting Luongo at $3.2 million for this year, an amount much closer to what they wanted than to what he wanted.

In the process, they needlessly two-handed The Franchise, a guy who was found home and marital happiness in South Florida while maturing into one of the best goalies in the world. He's the face of the Panthers off the ice, the backbone of the Panthers on it and takes both roles willingly.

Now, they could easily lose Luongo after two years.

Luongo won the freedom to play Free Agency Lotto after the...

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...y/12481214.htm

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08-28-2005, 12:18 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy
I've come to a conclusion. We have to capitulate and give in to Roberto's demands. Sure it blows but that's the way it is and before you get all pissed, ask yourself this...who would you say is THE most valuable player to ever to pull a Panthers sweater over his head?

The fact that Luongo knows he's a great goalie and wants to be paid as such shouldn't come as any surprise. Yeah his agent is a total phoney and yeah he's asking for a boatload of money and yeah he's handicapping the team by cornering so much of a limited amount of cabbage. But if we're not going to pay Luongo top dollar who ARE we going to pay? Do the Panthers intend to compete in the NHL or not? It isn't as though Luongo is making his demand when we're up against the cap and can't actually meet it. We've got the cap space. Sure it's not what management had planned for but it is what it is. And it IS what they agreed to when they signed the new CBA.

So let's go Cohen...it's time to pony up and settle this squabble. Because any other goalie we could trade for would pale in comparision. And because no other player is on the ice for 60-65 minute a night. And because you were willing to pay Pronger's salary. And because you'll regret losing the best goalie this team has ever seen and likely ever will. And because we'll all understand trading a Bouwmeester who hasn't proven diddly and whose loss would be easier to absorb. And most of all, because the fans need a totally positive vibe after this long, miserable lockout.
Ahh a moderator. I'll be nice. :-) Luongo isn't going anywhere. Period. He wants to stay. The team wants him to stay. And his agent is French. I would type more but I blasted that trade rumor out of the water so many times already my fingers are tired.

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08-28-2005, 07:55 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterboy73806498
Luongo isn't going anywhere. Period. He wants to stay. The team wants him to stay. And his agent is French.
Do you mean by that that Lupien will accuse Cohen or Keenan of taking performance enhancing substances to excuse losing his client money?

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