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Old
06-21-2011, 09:53 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
In 2007 they signed him on June 28th. So, you might have to wait an extra week
This is true. And then scrambled and overpaid Hamrlik with Souray money which IMO turned out okay. But that was cutting it close.

I just think the D still needs another legit top 4 d-man in addition to Markov and Subban to cover for potential injuries. Right now Subban is the only signed legitimate top 4 d-man. I wouldn't want to be Gauthier if Markov walks, Wiz walks and Hamrlik walks. It won't happen but.............

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06-21-2011, 09:56 AM
  #27
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I will say it again. We will be fooloish to lose Wiz and will regret this move in December.

If people really think we are going to sign Laich for our top 6, they are living in a fantasy world.

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06-21-2011, 09:58 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Plekamaniac View Post
I will say it again. We will be fooloish to lose Wiz and will regret this move in December.

If people really think we are going to sign Laich for our top 6, they are living in a fantasy world.
Wiz is going to cost way more than he is worth.

He is going to get 5+ on the open market and you really think this team can afford to give him that? The guy just had a career year and is looking for a big payday on the UFA market.

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06-21-2011, 10:04 AM
  #29
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I think whether or not we sign the Wiz depends on how negociations go with Markov. So as long as Markov is unsigned, we won't really hear anything about the Wiz.

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06-21-2011, 10:05 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Wiz is going to cost way more than he is worth.

He is going to get 5+ on the open market and you really think this team can afford to give him that? The guy just had a career year and is looking for a big payday on the UFA market.
Yeah. I don't want the Habs to pay more than 4, 4.5 for Wiz, but he can clearly get more this summer. Who knows, maybe he liked Montreal enough to settle here without the overpayment another team could afford, but money makes the world go round.

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06-21-2011, 10:08 AM
  #31
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I've been saying this a lot, but I don't think that either party is going to waste too much time negotiating before July 1st. Wiz is 10 days away from hitting the open market and getting his first big-ticket long-term contract in the league. It's in Wiz's best interest to hit the open market and have 30 teams able to bid on his services, rather than limit his options to just one.
Only a % of players think like that.

The contract on the open market would represent only several 100k more, and maybe one season more. It's not like its a salary of 1 mil vs 5 mil. A lot of players will chose comfortability over just a bit more money. "rather than limiting his options to just one" makes it sound as if he's picking limited food at a corner market when he could go to the marché central where everything is available", when the actual reality is that there won't be that much difference between signing here or elsewhere, just a matter of chosing if he wants to stay with the Habs or leaves (If PG wants him back) If he signs with the Habs before July 1st, he isn't limiting his choices, it rather means he has made the choice, because in the end he can only chose one team.

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06-21-2011, 10:09 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Plekamaniac View Post
I will say it again. We will be fooloish to lose Wiz and will regret this move in December.
The Habs can't put a gun to Wiz's head and make him an offer he can't refuse.... even if Pleks is willing to do it for them.

Wiz and his agent have all the power in this situation. It's in their best interest to wait until July 1st to start negotiating. Even if PG has approached Wiz's representation about a contract, he was probably me with a "wait and see" response or a demand for what his agent believes is his full market value, term and security clauses.

We can lament about the potential loss of Wiz all we want, but nothing will change the fact that the Habs are very unlikely to get him signed before July 1st, unless they give him a blank cheque.

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06-21-2011, 10:11 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Wiz is going to cost way more than he is worth.

He is going to get 5+ on the open market and you really think this team can afford to give him that? The guy just had a career year and is looking for a big payday on the UFA market.
You in Wiz's thoughts? Because he never said that. What Wiz actually said was that he was looking for security first, because he was tired of moving around the league, and that he like to stay with the Habs. THAT'S ALL WE KNOW.

People around here make me laugh, they assume so much and make it reality.

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06-21-2011, 10:12 AM
  #34
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I sincerly hope Markov won't ask for a whole lot more than 5M with the injuries he suffered. Signing him is fine by me, but if he gets hurt his contract takes us a lot of flexibility if we want to sign another top d-man this summer.

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06-21-2011, 10:14 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Souvenirs View Post
Yeah. I don't want the Habs to pay more than 4, 4.5 for Wiz, but he can clearly get more this summer. Who knows, maybe he liked Montreal enough to settle here without the overpayment another team could afford, but money makes the world go round.
Honestly would you take the risk at 4 if the term was longer?

What about if the term was shorter would you go to 6-6.5? (2 year deal 3 at most)

I'm sure a deal can be reached that is beneficial to both parties. Maybe a frontloaded deal (just kidding)

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06-21-2011, 10:14 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You in Wiz's thoughts? Because he never said that. What Wiz actually said was that he was looking for security first, because he was tired of moving around the league, and that he like to stay with the Habs. THAT'S ALL WE KNOW.

People around here make me laugh, they assume so much and make it reality.
You can think whatever you want but don't cry too much when Wiz signs elsewhere.

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06-21-2011, 10:16 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Only a % of players think like that.

The contract on the open market would represent only several 100k more, and maybe one season more. It's not like its a salary of 1 mil vs 5 mil. A lot of players will chose comfortability over just a bit more money. "rather than limiting his options to just one" makes it sound as if he's picking limited food at a corner market when he could go to the marché central where everything is available", when the actual reality is that there won't be that much difference between signing here or elsewhere, just a matter of chosing if he wants to stay with the Habs or leaves (If PG wants him back) If he signs with the Habs before July 1st, he isn't limiting his choices, it rather means he has made the choice, because in the end he can only chose one team.
I don't think too many players are concerned with their cap hit or a couple 100K on their salary. However, I would assume that a guy like Wiz, who's been shuffled around a lot in his young career will look for the most secure long-term contract he can get.

Contracts aren't just about year-to-year cap hit or salary. Term and clauses are a significant aspect of them to players. Hitting the open market just might be the difference between getting an extra year or an NTC. Players that opt for shorter/cheaper contracts tend to do so later in their career, not when they are first eligible as an UFA.

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Old
06-21-2011, 10:17 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
The Habs can't put a gun to Wiz's head and make him an offer he can't refuse.... even if Pleks is willing to do it for them.

Wiz and his agent have all the power in this situation. It's in their best interest to wait until July 1st to start negotiating. Even if PG has approached Wiz's representation about a contract, he was probably me with a "wait and see" response or a demand for what his agent believes is his full market value, term and security clauses.

We can lament about the potential loss of Wiz all we want, but nothing will change the fact that the Habs are very unlikely to get him signed before July 1st, unless they give him a blank cheque.
That's not a fact. That's a faulty assumption.

As I said before, the ONLY things Wiz said regarding all this, is that he was looking for security (NOT A BLANK CHEQUE), because he was tired of moving from one city to the other, that he would greatly like to stay here, but that he fears it hinges on Markov coming back or not. That is a paraphrase of what we've heard from him since the playoffs ended.


You're whole tirade about Wiz waiting for July 1st is based on your preconception and generalization of NHL UFAs mentality. It's not fact, it's hubris.

If Wiz doesn't sign before July 1st, it's because he's not in PG's plans.

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06-21-2011, 10:18 AM
  #39
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I know he's going to sign. It's the price that scares me...

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06-21-2011, 10:19 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
You can think whatever you want but don't cry too much when Wiz signs elsewhere.
What age are you?

I don't even think he'll sign here because I DON'T THINK HE'S IN PG'S PLANS.

But that doesn't mean that your suppositions are based on nothing more but hot air.

You did exactly what I said before. Assume. What I said in the post you quoted doesn't entail ANYTHING about what I think of signing Wiz or not. It simply stipulated the ONLY things we know of what Wiz said. But since it destroys your precious little ego's great diatribe, you go on to make further assumptions, this time about me, assumptions that are based in pure BS, because nothing in my post pointed to this.

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06-21-2011, 10:53 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You're whole tirade about Wiz waiting for July 1st is based on your preconception and generalization of NHL UFAs mentality. It's not fact, it's hubris.

If Wiz doesn't sign before July 1st, it's because he's not in PG's plans.
Hubris? Well, I hope that Zeus will take mercy on me for spiting him. Hopefully he doesn't lurk here...

I tend to base my opinions on what has happened in the past. I think there's there's enough precedent to establish that players who breakout in an UFA year tend to test the market.

I do find it humourous that you spent that whole post lambasting me for using a faulty assumption from your rationality pedestal, then concluded with a statement that is as much a faulty assumption as my argument was. It is completely possible for Gauthier to want to re-sign Wiz and end up falling short in doing so for one reason or another. There's many examples of teams that tried to sign a player who was bent on hitting the market.

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Old
06-21-2011, 10:56 AM
  #42
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Didn't know the draft was in Minneapolis.

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Old
06-21-2011, 11:11 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
Hubris? Well, I hope that Zeus will take mercy on me for spiting him. Hopefully he doesn't lurk here...

I tend to base my opinions on what has happened in the past. I think there's there's enough precedent to establish that players who breakout in an UFA year tend to test the market.

I do find it humourous that you spent that whole post lambasting me for using a faulty assumption from your rationality pedestal, then concluded with a statement that is as much a faulty assumption as my argument was. It is completely possible for Gauthier to want to re-sign Wiz and end up falling short in doing so for one reason or another. There's many examples of teams that tried to sign a player who was bent on hitting the market.
But that's not the probability if you consider what Wiz DID SAY. He said that he wants to stay here, but he feared PG's decision would hinge on Markov staying here or not. That's paraphrased directly from a quote of him in the JDM. Now, if PG wants him back, and Wiz said he wants back, the highest probability would be that he would sign here, because in those cases, it is the usual outcome. You might give examples of Komi (although Wiz didn't receive Komi's treatment in Montreal, which makes it a very different story regarding the player's state of mind vs the organization when he hit FA), examples of Souray (totally different personality).

Wiz seems to fall more in the Plex, Markov, Koivu category of players. A hard worker who really appreciated his time here. He seems genuine, and it pained me when he said that about Markov vs him, because I knew then that chances are that he would be gone, and the probability of this hinges on PG's decision.

So it's not an assumption, but quite probably the most probable scenario based on the actual facts (Wiz interview).

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06-21-2011, 11:40 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Wiz seems to fall more in the Plex, Markov, Koivu category of players. A hard worker who really appreciated his time here. He seems genuine, and it pained me when he said that about Markov vs him, because I knew then that chances are that he would be gone, and the probability of this hinges on PG's decision.

So it's not an assumption, but quite probably the most probable scenario based on the actual facts (Wiz interview).
I agree that he seemed to fit in well and filled his role excellently with the team, but I think the difference between us is that I don't read too much into Wiz's end of season comments. The "great city" and "would love to stay" lines are said so often that they've lost meaning to me. Free agency would be a lot more boring every year if all the players held true to those kinds of comments.

I would love to see Wiz stay here (I agree with a lot of the arguments you've recently made in that respect). However, I don't see him signing with the Habs before his value is gauged on the open market. In saying this, I don't want to imply that he's greedy, or selfish, or doesn't care about the Habs. I just think that history shows it's the most prudent way a guy in his situation can attain his market value in a contract.

We see the situation differently and that's fine by me. I didn't want to get too catty about it (I probably did), but in the end I think that there's a fair amount of rationality behind my opinion even if there's no "smoking gun", per say. Quite frankly, I hope I end up being wrong in Wiz's case... but I wouldn't mind if my theory holds true and Pitkanen were to end up here somehow.

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06-21-2011, 11:56 AM
  #45
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I agree that he seemed to fit in well and filled his role excellently with the team, but I think the difference between us is that I don't read too much into Wiz's end of season comments. The "great city" and "would love to stay" lines are said so often that they've lost meaning to me. Free agency would be a lot more boring every year if all the players held true to those kinds of comments.

I would love to see Wiz stay here (I agree with a lot of the arguments you've recently made in that respect). However, I don't see him signing with the Habs before his value is gauged on the open market. In saying this, I don't want to imply that he's greedy, or selfish, or doesn't care about the Habs. I just think that history shows it's the most prudent way a guy in his situation can attain his market value in a contract.

We see the situation differently and that's fine by me. I didn't want to get too catty about it (I probably did), but in the end I think that there's a fair amount of rationality behind my opinion even if there's no "smoking gun", per say. Quite frankly, I hope I end up being wrong in Wiz's case... but I wouldn't mind if my theory holds true and Pitkanen were to end up here somehow.
I'd prefer Ehrhoff

I have this image of Pitkanen in my head that has never went away, maybe he's changed, as his stats show, but he's been way too inconsistent in his career IMO. Ehrhoff fits our speed model like a glove, and he's as good if not better defensively as Hamrlik was, just not the same style.

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06-21-2011, 12:29 PM
  #46
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I'd prefer Ehrhoff

I have this image of Pitkanen in my head that has never went away, maybe he's changed, as his stats show, but he's been way too inconsistent in his career IMO. Ehrhoff fits our speed model like a glove, and he's as good if not better defensively as Hamrlik was, just not the same style.
Ehrhoff is the better choice if it comes to that but, need would say Bieksa and that isn't happening.I'm still hoping Wisniewski is here with Gorges and Markov in a perfect world,if not Wis then Hamrlik.Pretty happy with Gauthier's decisions as GM so I'm really not that concerned.

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06-21-2011, 02:20 PM
  #47
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This is true. And then scrambled and overpaid Hamrlik with Souray money which IMO turned out okay. But that was cutting it close.

I just think the D still needs another legit top 4 d-man in addition to Markov and Subban to cover for potential injuries. Right now Subban is the only signed legitimate top 4 d-man. I wouldn't want to be Gauthier if Markov walks, Wiz walks and Hamrlik walks. It won't happen but.............
We can speculate a lot, but what really matters is how they evaluate Weber, Emelin and Diaz. If they feel Weber and Emelin can provide a solid contribution, as well as Diaz being a good call up in case of injuries, then perhaps they don't feel the need to get another top4.
If they view it as Markov-Emelin, PK-Spacek, Gill-Gorges, they might not feel the urge to sign another top 4 D. They might opt to adapt mid-season if injuries occur and depth is needed.
It'll be interesting to see if they favor defense over offense. Or somehow manage to improve both.

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06-21-2011, 02:25 PM
  #48
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We can speculate a lot, but what really matters is how they evaluate Weber, Emelin and Diaz. If they feel Weber and Emelin can provide a solid contribution, as well as Diaz being a good call up in case of injuries, then perhaps they don't feel the need to get another top4.
If they view it as Markov-Emelin, PK-Spacek, Gill-Gorges, they might not feel the urge to sign another top 4 D. They might opt to adapt mid-season if injuries occur and depth is needed.
It'll be interesting to see if they favor defense over offense. Or somehow manage to improve both.
I think guys like Weber Yemelin Spacek will start with #5-6 minutes...in an ideal world, Spacek gets moved and we sign a solid #3-4 like Hejda who can take care of his own end and kill penalities.

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06-21-2011, 02:28 PM
  #49
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I think this is about spot on. Still not sold on Wiz so I'd like to see something like this happen.
I disagree. Wiz @ 4.8mil can still leave us with cap flexibility for the next couple of seasons with Moen, Gill and Spacek coming off the books.

PS. Where the **** have you been? Sneaking back into the Leafs Nation?!

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06-21-2011, 02:48 PM
  #50
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with Markov and Gorges added to the line up IMO the D already looks better than it was most of the year last year and with Price in nets im really not to worried about the Habs defensive situation...im hoping they spend that extra cap on a top 6 forward, with AK on the third line that will give us some much needed depth...the problem is finding that top 6 player...

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