I laugh when people say its easy to find franchsie goalie...
Excuse me, but what?
You dont put Kipper and Fleury in that list come on people...
And even more laughable, I saw halaks name mentionned in that category... -.-
There is a difference between number 1 goalie and a franchsie one...
Nicklas Kronwall or Lidstrom?
Well, yeah.... Kronwall is a number 1 def, but Lidstrom is a franchise def.
Franchise Goalies are the ones you can count on each game to make you win...
Let me ask you this, Luongo is a franchise goalie? He never shows up in critical time.
Thomas, very good, had a better team, a WAY better team than the Habs.
Put Price, with Bruins, Hawks, Flyers, Canucks, Caps, Wings he would absolutely dominate...
Why because, he can count on a offense that will score more than 2 goals per game...
You know that the habs were the team that scored teh least goals in all the team that made the playoffs?
So yeah...
Replace Price with a goalie who is 1 tier below him, we still have a fair amount of success because our team makes goalies look good.
Replace Subban with a D who is 1 tier below him, we just lost a #1-2D for a #3-4D. That's a huge blow. In 5 years I could see both being a top of the league at their respective positions but I just see Subban as more of the face of the franchise.
He's a superstar. Price is one too but at the end of the day we all know how superstar D affect a team, the fans, everything. Both of these two players compliment each other anyways, they're always making each other look good. We're very lucky to have both.
If I had to pick one it would be Subban though. Great goalies are practically a dime a dozen especially if you're willing to pay 4m+ which is what we'll need to give Price (albeit he's a superstar not just a great goalie)
Subban's aren't. And it isn't just that he's a stellar D, he has swag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AraGOHABSGO
I laugh when people say its easy to find franchsie goalie...
Excuse me, but what?
You dont put Kipper and Fleury in that list come on people...
And even more laughable, I saw halaks name mentionned in that category... -.-
There is a difference between number 1 goalie and a franchsie one...
Nicklas Kronwall or Lidstrom?
Well, yeah.... Kronwall is a number 1 def, but Lidstrom is a franchise def.
Franchise Goalies are the ones you can count on each game to make you win...
Let me ask you this, Luongo is a franchise goalie? He never shows up in critical time. Thomas, very good, had a better team, a WAY better team than the Habs.
Put Price, with Bruins, Hawks, Flyers, Canucks, Caps, Wings he would absolutely dominate...
Why because, he can count on a offense that will score more than 2 goals per game...
You know that the habs were the team that scored teh least goals in all the team that made the playoffs?
So yeah...
All the goalies quoted here are franchise goalies. Even if I don't like Luongo I know that.
Talk about being a complete homer and 100% bias
Come on Fleury is streaky but he did win the cup and appeared in the finals twice.
Luongo won an olympic gold medal. Made it to the finals. Yeah he's a choker but he's a franchise goalie no less. He hasn't won the cup yet, doesn't mean he won't. He needs to learn how to not choke first though
Kipper not a franchise goalie? The guy plays 70+ games a year and has good stats. Has also been to the finals. He's a franchise goalie.
Thomas not a franchise goalie? He just won the cup on the back of one of if not the most impressive goalie performance of all time (in 1 season)
Halak not a franchise goalie? OK fair enough, that's yet to be proven, but he still played well with a **** team this year (all their team was injured) and brought a weaker habs roster past two powerhouse contenders. He might not be a franchise goalie just yet but he's one of those goalies on the cusp and if he puts up good numbers this year will definitely be.
Replace Price with a goalie who is 1 tier below him, we still have a fair amount of success because our team makes goalies look good.
Replace Subban with a D who is 1 tier below him, we just lost a #1-2D for a #3-4D. That's a huge blow. In 5 years I could see both being a top of the league at their respective positions but I just see Subban as more of the face of the franchise.
He's a superstar. Price is one too but at the end of the day we all know how superstar D affect a team, the fans, everything. Both of these two players compliment each other anyways, they're always making each other look good. We're very lucky to have both.
If I had to pick one it would be Subban though. Great goalies are practically a dime a dozen especially if you're willing to pay 4m+ which is what we'll need to give Price (albeit he's a superstar not just a great goalie)
Subban's aren't. And it isn't just that he's a stellar D, he has swag.
All the goalies quoted here are franchise goalies. Even if I don't like Luongo I know that.
Talk about being a complete homer and 100% bias
Come on Fleury is streaky but he did win the cup and appeared in the finals twice.
Luongo won an olympic gold medal. Made it to the finals. Yeah he's a choker but he's a franchise goalie no less. He hasn't won the cup yet, doesn't mean he won't. He needs to learn how to not choke first though
Kipper not a franchise goalie? The guy plays 70+ games a year and has good stats. Has also been to the finals. He's a franchise goalie.
Thomas not a franchise goalie? He just won the cup on the back of one of if not the most impressive goalie performance of all time (in 1 season)
Halak not a franchise goalie? OK fair enough, that's yet to be proven, but he still played well with a **** team this year (all their team was injured) and brought a weaker habs roster past two powerhouse contenders. He might not be a franchise goalie just yet but he's one of those goalies on the cusp and if he puts up good numbers this year will definitely be.
You are a huge homer.
Fleury won the cup, I agree, so did Niemi and where is HE in the list?
Luongo won the olympic medal. I am pretty sure you could have put alot of goalies and they would have won too... the way the team was playing in front of him, told alot
Well yeah, I have to admit I have been wrong about Kipper there xD
Thomas, Honetsly I cant put him in the same category as a Hasek, Brodeur, Roy... Why?
Well, you just dont know what THomas you will... And plus, he did have an amazing team in front of him.
And if you think Halak will become a franchise goalie, you are dreaming my friend....
Let me see, to be a franchise goalie, you should play atleast 60 games...
Do you think Halak will be able to play 60 games with his physic? I really but really doubt it. When you say two-power houses. I have to agree, but at the same time disagree and here is why:
1- When the other team started crashing the net and placing a guy in front of Halak, then we were doomed. Why? His physic as simple as that. Flyers did it, they won. Penguins and Capitals didnt and they lost.
And to be precise, for me a franchise goalie, YOU MUST HAVE WON A CUP.
I mean, winning the stanley cup is everything, how can you be placed among the greatest if you didnt achieve that?
At least, you should have won the Vezina....
And how can you go say that Subban will be a franchise D, because we can't replace him and that just makes me laugh.
I mean, I can name you 50 guys in the ligue that can do the same job as PK does.
But you can't name 20 goalies that can do teh same thing Price done.
Yeah, you can talk bout his win% and all...
but lets look at this:
Montreal were the team that scored the LEAST goals to make it into the playofs.
They were ranked 24th overall.
Sersiously, we can replace Price with anyone and expect to win?
The goalies we named earlier, here is their support:
Luongo -> 1st overall for GF
Kipper -> 5th overall for GF ( missed playoffs )
Thomas -> 8th overall for GF
Halak -> 10th overall for GF ( missed playoffs )
Price -> 24th overall for GF ( made playoffs )
Just think if Price had just a little more offensif support, he would have most probably reached 40 wins...
And one thing, Price is 23... No goalie in the nHL is dominant as Price at such a young age.
And if you look on the D side:
Subban was 30 for points. O the 29 before him, 12 guys that his around his age.
So, not alot but certanliy ALOT more than goalies.
Just want to add up, I am a big fan of our PK... dont think I dont like him lol....
In the last decade, Habs have had 4 goalies finishing among the best in the league and getting highly noticed (Price-Halak-Huet-Theodore). 4 in ten years, that's very rare.
What happens to talented goalies in Montreal is out of the ordinary, they always end-up shinning, and people put way too much emphasis on THAT individual's performances, when it is obvious that the system itself has always been molded for that purpose.
The fact remains, that with the Habs in the last 10 years, is that we've had a bigger win% differential in having or not a #1 D, compared to the #1 goalie win differential. Meaning that no matter which goalie was in, the win differential fluctuations are about the same, but with or without Markov, the team has seen huge jumps in record, they lost when he was out and won when he was in, the only different year, has been this year, and lo and behold, a future #1 D is there on the squad to replace him and it's the first year we don't look so bad without him (Markov).
I voted Subban due to the over saturation of goalies. Price is a fantastic quality and we are fortunate to have a star guarding the net but he could be replaced. If Subban continues hi development from the players, he could become something remarkable by the fifth year. A defenseman is usually far more difficult to find in comparison to a solid goaltender.
And how can you go say that Subban will be a franchise D, because we can't replace him and that just makes me laugh.
I mean, I can name you 50 guys in the ligue that can do the same job as PK does.
But you can't name 20 goalies that can do teh same thing Price done.
Yeah, you can talk bout his win% and all...
but lets look at this:
Montreal were the team that scored the LEAST goals to make it into the playofs.
They were ranked 24th overall.
Sersiously, we can replace Price with anyone and expect to win?
The goalies we named earlier, here is their support:
Luongo -> 1st overall for GF
Kipper -> 5th overall for GF ( missed playoffs )
Thomas -> 8th overall for GF
Halak -> 10th overall for GF ( missed playoffs )
Price -> 24th overall for GF ( made playoffs )
Just think if Price had just a little more offensif support, he would have most probably reached 40 wins...
And one thing, Price is 23... No goalie in the nHL is dominant as Price at such a young age.
And if you look on the D side:
Subban was 30 for points. O the 29 before him, 12 guys that his around his age.
So, not alot but certanliy ALOT more than goalies.
Just want to add up, I am a big fan of our PK... dont think I dont like him lol....
That guys always but always makes me proud!!
I never said we could replace Price with anybody I just said due to our system goalies work out better here than elsewhere, we're a defensive team. Price is a great goalie I don't want to take away from that in the slightest I'm just saying look what a tier 2 or 3 goalie like Niemi, Roloson, insert whoever, have managed to pull off. If you put a good defense and system in front of a tier 2 goalie they play like a tier 1. If you do so in front of a tier 1 then that goalie becomes a god (see Thomas)
While Boston's D on paper wasn't the best they all played very well.
It isn't that I said we couldn't replace Subban either but rather given the habs situation and system, if you would replace Subban with a tier lower D-man we'd be in a lot more trouble than if we switched Price with a goalie one tier below. That's all I'm saying. Just look at how well Auld even played. The difference to our actual team would be a lot more vast given that situation.
I see both as franchise players but if I had to pick one it's definitely Subban. I see him as a D who can play in all roles as a #1 who steps up big and has a ton of drive. He played 30 minutes a game in the post season in his first NHL season. He only played 1 season in the AHL and after half a season just like in the AHL and OHL he developed his defensive game ultra fast and became a solid two-way player.
Price is incredible, all I'm saying is if I had to choose one of the two it would be Subban. I think down the line both will have storied careers. Also if you're bringing points into a Subban debate especially after his first season I don't really know what to say. So much of Subban isn't on the stats sheet. I mean really in a thread like this you could roll the dice and make your pick and be right either way. Both are solid players, regarding our choice though we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
In the last decade, Habs have had 4 goalies finishing among the best in the league and getting highly noticed (Price-Halak-Huet-Theodore). 4 in ten years, that's very rare.
What happens to talented goalies in Montreal is out of the ordinary, they always end-up shinning, and people put way too much emphasis on THAT individual's performances, when it is obvious that the system itself has always been molded for that purpose.
The fact remains, that with the Habs in the last 10 years, is that we've had a bigger win% differential in having or not a #1 D, compared to the #1 goalie win differential. Meaning that no matter which goalie was in, the win differential fluctuations are about the same, but with or without Markov, the team has seen huge jumps in record, they lost when he was out and won when he was in, the only different year, has been this year, and lo and behold, a future #1 D is there on the squad to replace him and it's the first year we don't look so bad without him (Markov).
That's why Subban is so important.
This is my stance. I don't think Price would easily be replaced but I just find the impact of Subban/Markov is huge given how our team is designed. It's not in any way a flaw of Price.
As for me, Price. You see in the play-offs time and time again, that elite goaltending wins games.
Yup. Same here. Not always but it does happen more often than not.
As for those talking about Kipper as if he wasn't a franchise player...err..yes his states aren't elite these days but has anyone noticed that he's old? He's on his down swing of his career. People decline with age. That still doesn't mean he wasn't a franchise goalie.
In any case, if I was going into a game 7 Stanley Cup final and had to choose one of Price or Subban...well, that's easy for me, I'll pick Price.
And how can you go say that Subban will be a franchise D, because we can't replace him and that just makes me laugh.
I mean, I can name you 50 guys in the ligue that can do the same job as PK does.
But you can't name 20 goalies that can do teh same thing Price done.
Yeah, you can talk bout his win% and all...
but lets look at this:
Montreal were the team that scored the LEAST goals to make it into the playofs.
They were ranked 24th overall.
Sersiously, we can replace Price with anyone and expect to win?
The goalies we named earlier, here is their support:
Luongo -> 1st overall for GF
Kipper -> 5th overall for GF ( missed playoffs )
Thomas -> 8th overall for GF
Halak -> 10th overall for GF ( missed playoffs )
Price -> 24th overall for GF ( made playoffs )
Just think if Price had just a little more offensif support, he would have most probably reached 40 wins...
And one thing, Price is 23... No goalie in the nHL is dominant as Price at such a young age.
And if you look on the D side:
Subban was 30 for points. O the 29 before him, 12 guys that his around his age.
So, not alot but certanliy ALOT more than goalies.
Just want to add up, I am a big fan of our PK... dont think I dont like him lol....
That guys always but always makes me proud!!
I never said we could replace Price with anybody I just said due to our system goalies work out better here than elsewhere, we're a defensive team. Price is a great goalie I don't want to take away from that in the slightest I'm just saying look what a tier 2 or 3 goalie like Niemi, Roloson, insert whoever, have managed to pull off. If you put a good defense and system in front of a tier 2 goalie they play like a tier 1. If you do so in front of a tier 1 then that goalie becomes a god (see Thomas)
While Boston's D on paper wasn't the best they all played very well.
It isn't that I said we couldn't replace Subban either but rather give the habs situation and system, if you would replace Subban with a tier lower D-man we'd be in a lot more trouble than if we switched Price with a goalie one tier below. That's all I'm saying. Just look at how well Auld even played. The difference to our actual team would be a lot more vast given that situation.
I see both as franchise players but if I had to pick one it's definitely Subban. I see him as a D who can play in all roles as a #1 who steps up big and has a ton of drive. He played 30 minutes a game in the post season in his first NHL season. He only played 1 season in the AHL and after half a season just like in the AHL and OHL he developed his defensive game ultra fast and became a solid two-way player.
Price is incredible, all I'm saying is if I had to choose one of the two it would be Subban. I think down the line both will have storied careers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings
As for me, Price. You see in the play-offs time and time again, that elite goaltending wins games.
Markov, Pronger, Chara, Weber, etc all have that same impact. You don't think they win games too by making it much easier for their goalies?
I'm not saying Leighton is good enough to get carried by Pronger, just saying a tier 2 goalie can be. How do you replace Pronger, a tier 2 D won't cut it nearly as often as a 2nd tier goalie will.
I never said we could replace Price with anybody I just said due to our system goalies work out better here than elsewhere, we're a defensive team. Price is a great goalie I don't want to take away from that in the slightest I'm just saying look what a tier 2 or 3 goalie like Niemi, Roloson, insert whoever, have managed to pull off. If you put a good defense and system in front of a tier 2 goalie they play like a tier 1. If you do so in front of a tier 1 then that goalie becomes a god (see Thomas)
While Boston's D on paper wasn't the best they all played very well.
It isn't that I said we couldn't replace Subban either but rather give the habs situation and system, if you would replace Subban with a tier lower D-man we'd be in a lot more trouble than if we switched Price with a goalie one tier below. That's all I'm saying. Just look at how well Auld even played. The difference to our actual team would be a lot more vast given that situation.
I see both as franchise players but if I had to pick one it's definitely Subban. I see him as a D who can play in all roles as a #1 who steps up big and has a ton of drive. He played 30 minutes a game in the post season in his first NHL season. He only played 1 season in the AHL and after half a season just like in the AHL and OHL he developed his defensive game ultra fast and became a solid two-way player.
Price is incredible, all I'm saying is if I had to choose one of the two it would be Subban. I think down the line both will have storied careers.
Markov, Pronger, Chara, Weber, etc all have that same impact. You don't think they win games too by making it much easier for their goalies?
I'm not saying Leighton is good enough to get carried by Pronger, just saying a tier 2 goalie can be. How do you replace Pronger, a tier 2 D won't cut it nearly as often as a 2nd tier goalie will.
A top D Man might play 30 minutes a game. Your goalie is out there for the entire game. I think you want the guy who is out there the most, who is the last line of defence, the margin between victory and loss, to be your best player.
A top D Man might play 30 minutes a game. Your goalie is out there for the entire game. I think you want the guy who is out there the most, who is the last line of defence, the margin between victory and loss, to be your best player.
Agreed but at the same time half the game isn't even played in your own end and coaches always match up the best D they can against the other teams best players. So while that D is off the ice the goalie is facing weaker opposition anyways.
I can understand both points of view to be honest, to me it's like a hairline difference but I'd still go with Subban.
What you're saying is true though, a solid goalie can basically steal you games. Leave any goalie out to dry with no defense though and that can only work for so long.
Agreed but at the same time half the game isn't even played in your own end and coaches always match up the best D they can against the other teams best players. So while that D is off the ice the goalie is facing weaker opposition anyways.
I can understand both points of view to be honest, to me it's like a hairline difference but I'd still go with Subban.
What you're saying is true though, a solid goalie can basically steal you games. Leave any goalie out to dry with no defense though and that can only work for so long.
When your team is on the road, the other team matches their best players aganst your weakest defence/players.
So, your goalie is the one who bails you out.
Without a good goalie, you cant win the cup.
Look at the flyers,Wings,Caps,Hawks
Last year, Hawks won the cup against Flyers.
Yeah Niemi won the cup, but lets face it the finals WAS NOT a goalies round. If Flyers had Price, they would have easly beaten Hawks.
And this year, Markov, our #1 D-Man was not here but we still managed to pull it to trough thanks to? Yeah Subban was a really big help, but it was mostly Price's doing.
Without Price, no playoffs...
So if you put Markov back in the lineup and Subban out... I think we still make the playoffs. But if you take Price away from the lineup and you replace him with lets say Niemi, then no we would not make the playoffs
In the last decade, Habs have had 4 goalies finishing among the best in the league and getting highly noticed (Price-Halak-Huet-Theodore). 4 in ten years, that's very rare.
What happens to talented goalies in Montreal is out of the ordinary, they always end-up shinning, and people put way too much emphasis on THAT individual's performances, when it is obvious that the system itself has always been molded for that purpose.
The fact remains, that with the Habs in the last 10 years, is that we've had a bigger win% differential in having or not a #1 D, compared to the #1 goalie win differential. Meaning that no matter which goalie was in, the win differential fluctuations are about the same, but with or without Markov, the team has seen huge jumps in record, they lost when he was out and won when he was in, the only different year, has been this year, and lo and behold, a future #1 D is there on the squad to replace him and it's the first year we don't look so bad without him (Markov).
That's why Subban is so important.
Or its simply because the Habs are good at drafting goalies.. How many coaches have we had over the last 10 years ? The system changes but we still find good goalies. I call the the Roy effect.
As for me, Price. You see in the play-offs time and time again, that elite goaltending wins games.
I agree with you for the most part, but an argument can be made for defenseman like Subban who log 30 minutes per game playing both ways on the ice and being unbelievably effective as well.. When you look at who he was tasked to shut down and what kind of offensive numbers those guys actually produced, it was one of the best shut down performances of the playoffs perhaps only rivaled by Chara vs the Sedin's, but Seidenberg is also a much better partner than Gill, too.
I've said all along, if the Habs win a cup with this core as it stands, our 3 finalists for the Conn Smythe will come down to Price, Cammy or Subban and it's NOT EVEN CLOSE.
