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Howard Eskin of 610 WIP: Front Office Open to Trading Richards or Carter

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Old
06-21-2011, 10:18 PM
  #551
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Carter isn't close to being my favorite player. I just don't like seeing criticism that has zero basis in reality.

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06-21-2011, 10:22 PM
  #552
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Why you all HEFF to "hate."

Soon ..soon Ilya be Flyer and all you be Breezyphans.....

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06-21-2011, 10:26 PM
  #553
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Attempting to refute the hater argument, or at least logically looking at Carter's play does not make us fanboys...

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06-21-2011, 10:34 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carter isn't close to being my favorite player. I just don't like seeing criticism that has zero basis in reality.
Ditto.

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06-21-2011, 10:47 PM
  #555
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Carter fanboys rolling in hot.
More like reality fanboys.

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06-21-2011, 10:50 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carter isn't close to being my favorite player. I just don't like seeing criticism that has zero basis in reality.
how is there zero basis in reality?

he hasnt performed well in the playoffs to date. Just look at his stats

you keep bringing up injuries as an excuse, yet there are players that play through injuries all the time. you can still see their effort, but i fail to see that with carter. he just floats around and takes low percentage shots that usually end up killing the momentum. If he's always injured come playoff time, why should we keep him? Oh right, because he scores a lot during the season

but hey, obviously i dont know anything because according to everyone here, carter is durable, smart with the puck, not lazy and always gives 100%

i still like that comparison between Datsyuk and Carter. Carter doesnt have half the skill or heart Datsyuk has

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06-21-2011, 10:53 PM
  #557
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how is there zero basis in reality?

he hasnt performed well in the playoffs to date. Just look at his stats

you keep bringing up injuries as an excuse, yet there are players that play through injuries all the time. you can still see their effort, but i fail to see that with carter. he just floats around and takes low percentage shots that usually end up killing the momentum. If he's always injured come playoff time, why should we keep him? Oh right, because he scores a lot during the season

but hey, obviously i dont know anything because according to everyone here, carter is durable, smart with the puck, not lazy and always gives 100%
How well did Kesler play once he was injured? And you act like it's his eternal, immutable fate to get injured before the playoffs, or like he does it on purpose.


The only part of your post that has any real perceivable fact is the second part. About being smart, not lazy, and giving 100%. Hell, he plays through injuries. How is that NOT giving 100%?

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06-21-2011, 10:54 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
how is there zero basis in reality?

he hasnt performed well in the playoffs to date. Just look at his stats

you keep bringing up injuries as an excuse, yet there are players that play through injuries all the time. you can still see their effort, but i fail to see that with carter. he just floats around and takes low percentage shots that usually end up killing the momentum. If he's always injured come playoff time, why should we keep him? Oh right, because he scores a lot during the season

but hey, obviously i dont know anything because according to everyone here, carter is durable, smart with the puck, not lazy and always gives 100%
Carter isn't lazy, where does this come from?? The man is in shape and has a good work ethic. He parties sometimes **** so do i haha and i don;t consider myself lazy. The only reason i see people saying he is lazy cuz of the way he skates but it effortlessly not lazy. He's one of the fastest players in the league. Carter is also a reason the flyers get to the playoffs as well, i don't know how you would argue he doesn't help there?

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06-21-2011, 10:54 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
how is there zero basis in reality?

he hasnt performed well in the playoffs to date. Just look at his stats

you keep bringing up injuries as an excuse, yet there are players that play through injuries all the time. you can still see their effort, but i fail to see that with carter. he just floats around and takes low percentage shots that usually end up killing the momentum. If he's always injured come playoff time, why should we keep him? Oh right, because he scores a lot during the season

but hey, obviously i dont know anything because according to everyone here, carter is durable, smart with the puck, not lazy and always gives 100%

i still like that comparison between Datsyuk and Carter. Carter doesnt have half the skill or heart Datsyuk has
So, Carter getting drilled with a Pronger slapshot (which he scored a goal on) is a justification to trade him?

You are just as bad as Cartsiephan.

Also, way to prove that you don't actually understand the comparison to Datsyuk.

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06-21-2011, 10:56 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, Carter getting drilled with a Pronger snapshot (which he scored a goal on) is a justification to trade him?

You are just as bad as Cartsiephan.
Apparently players who score immediately after having their foot broken are soft and lazy. Now we know.

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06-21-2011, 11:03 PM
  #561
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06-21-2011, 11:09 PM
  #562
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you guys keep thinking that Carter will be a game changer come playoff time

I'll leave it at that

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06-21-2011, 11:15 PM
  #563
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06-21-2011, 11:15 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
you guys keep thinking that Carter will be a game changer come playoff time

I'll leave it at that
How old was Keith Primeau before he ever did anything in the playoffs, 55? All he did was eventually carry the team to within one game of the SCF's.

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06-21-2011, 11:19 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by Ironmanrulez View Post
If we ever trade Carter and Richards, we must get equal pieces in return.

We are in win now mode:

1. We have no prospects who surely developed in one of the than missing roles
2. This Draft is a weak draft, so there is no Yzerman who help us winning now, so why we trading for picks
3. Timonen, Pronger, Briere are too old in 2 or 3 Years
4. we lack top 6 wingers so we must get top6 forwards back

____________________________________________

I can think about a trade like this:

Carter for Morrow or Iginla or David Booth
Richards for Shane Doan, Bobby Ryan, Mikko Koivu, Jordan Staal

Or you trade both of them for the rigths of Gagne and Stamkos, if youre sure they sign with you.

Gagne 3.0 per Stamkos 7.0 per year

________________________________________________

But you loose 2 of your franchise players and you never knows if the new aquisitions ever reach their potential for their new franchise.


I still only want to trade one of them: Carter if its for Morrow, Iginla, Koivu or Ryan!


just my two cents
Ok, you asked for it.

You are prepared to trade two franchise players for a great young scorer and a UFA who wants to come back anyway - or just one for a guy making as much or more money so that in the process you take back so much in contract you can't sign Bryzgalov?

Mind boggling...

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06-21-2011, 11:21 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
you guys keep thinking that Carter will be a game changer come playoff time

I'll leave it at that
Based on empirical evidence.

You keep believing he will never perform DESPITE empirical evidence to the contrary.

I'll leave it at that.

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06-21-2011, 11:23 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Based on empirical evidence.

You keep believing he will never perform DESPITE empirical evidence to the contrary.

I'll leave it at that.
You could also use historical evidence, like, say, Carter's track record for scoring in deciding games at the WJC and leading the team in scoring in the Calder Cup too....but nevermind.

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06-22-2011, 12:10 AM
  #568
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JvR hasn't proven himself and Roo isn't as good as Richards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
JVR had two good games in the playoffs. I love what we saw from him and I hope he builds on that next season. But let's keep it in perspective. It was two good games.

Richards vs Roo would be interesting. It's really not close, in my mind. I'm just very happy that both players are Flyers.

It's amazing to me how little respect Richards gets around here these days. Holy **** people.
Woof and CG....I love Richards as much as the next guy, but I think Roo is the better player. I agree though, I cant understand why Richards gets so little respect but Carter gets all the excuses in the world....Richards is clearly the better player by a mile.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How about 7 points in 12 games while playing on 2 broken feet? Is that good enough for you? Or does he need to cure AIDS while scoring 2 hat tricks to win the Stanley Cup after having an arm amputated to convince you he isn't a bad player?

This statement makes as much sense as half the baseless criticism around here: Briere was non-existent against Boston this year and he was healthy, That means he's a playoff choker now! We should trade him ASAP.
You mean that playoff year where he had ZERO points and was invisible in 8 of those 12 games and 5 of his 7 points came in 2 games??? No not good enough for me. Sorry.

While we are at it:

2011 - All but one game he had zero points
2010 (see above)
2009 - All but one game he had zero points
2008, his best playoff years, but largely due to one good series (against Montreal) Did nothing in all but 1 game against Washington, and did nothing and was a -6 vs. Pitt.
2006 - Zero points in 6 games (was a rookie so in and of itself not a huge deal, but he hasnt improved)

So.....His playoff career he has been good in a 5 game series against Montreal (who we alway beat up) and maybe 2-3 other games. So rough estimate, 7-8 games out of 47. Nope, not good enough for me for a $5.5 million dollar player who is supposed to be on our top line and our top scorer.

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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
how is there zero basis in reality?

he hasnt performed well in the playoffs to date. Just look at his stats

you keep bringing up injuries as an excuse, yet there are players that play through injuries all the time. you can still see their effort, but i fail to see that with carter. he just floats around and takes low percentage shots that usually end up killing the momentum. If he's always injured come playoff time, why should we keep him? Oh right, because he scores a lot during the season

but hey, obviously i dont know anything because according to everyone here, carter is durable, smart with the puck, not lazy and always gives 100%

i still like that comparison between Datsyuk and Carter. Carter doesnt have half the skill or heart Datsyuk has
Datsyuk is a borderline Superstar.....Carter is a 2nd line center at best.....In 2002 (when for the record they won the Cup) he was a 3rd line player behind the likes of Fedorov, Yzerman, Shanahan, Robitaille, Larionov, Hull, etc. All those guys were still there in 2003 and 2004 he still wasnt a top guy as the team was still relying on most of those old guys....and he was 3rd on the team in scoring (playoffs) in 2004

Once he became a top line player, and relied upon for his scoring he has been essentially a PPG player, which just so happened to be since the lockout...different league before then

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How well did Kesler play once he was injured? And you act like it's his eternal, immutable fate to get injured before the playoffs, or like he does it on purpose.

The only part of your post that has any real perceivable fact is the second part. About being smart, not lazy, and giving 100%. Hell, he plays through injuries. How is that NOT giving 100%?
Kesler's 33 points in 47 games is significantly better, just saying....And last time I checked, his team was in the finals this year while we got swept by the team they took to 7 games.

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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
you guys keep thinking that Carter will be a game changer come playoff time

I'll leave it at that
Havent seen any evidence that he will be yet

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Originally Posted by Fulton44 View Post
How old was Keith Primeau before he ever did anything in the playoffs, 55? All he did was eventually carry the team to within one game of the SCF's.
Sorry, I dont know about you...but I dont feel like not being able to improve this team because we decide we are going to wait 7 more years for Carter to have the possibility of one huge playoff run.

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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You could also use historical evidence, like, say, Carter's track record for scoring in deciding games at the WJC and leading the team in scoring in the Calder Cup too....but nevermind.
So I guess you want to ignore the fact that Richards was just as good in that Calder Cup run....he just was busy leading his OHL team in the playoffs a lot further than Carters and played in less games. Richards had 2 GWG to Carter's 3, but in 7 less games....hmmm

Who was the captain of that 2005 WJC gold medal winning team???

How about Richards 27 points in 21 playoff games leading his OHL team to the Memorial Cup in 2003. How many memorial cups did Carter win?

Its simple. To date, at every level they have played, Richards is better, period.


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06-22-2011, 01:03 AM
  #569
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Woof and CG....I love Richards as much as the next guy, but I think Roo is the better player. I agree though, I cant understand why Richards gets so little respect but Carter gets all the excuses in the world....Richards is clearly the better player by a mile.



You mean that playoff year where he had ZERO points and was invisible in 8 of those 12 games and 5 of his 7 points came in 2 games??? No not good enough for me. Sorry.

While we are at it:

2011 - All but one game he had zero points
2010 (see above)
2009 - All but one game he had zero points
2008, his best playoff years, but largely due to one good series (against Montreal) Did nothing in all but 1 game against Washington, and did nothing and was a -6 vs. Pitt.
2006 - Zero points in 6 games (was a rookie so in and of itself not a huge deal, but he hasnt improved)

So.....His playoff career he has been good in a 5 game series against Montreal (who we alway beat up) and maybe 2-3 other games. So rough estimate, 7-8 games out of 47. Nope, not good enough for me for a $5.5 million dollar player who is supposed to be on our top line and our top scorer.



Datsyuk is a borderline Superstar.....Carter is a 2nd line center at best.....In 2002 (when for the record they won the Cup) he was a 3rd line player behind the likes of Fedorov, Yzerman, Shanahan, Robitaille, Larionov, Hull, etc. All those guys were still there in 2003 and 2004 he still wasnt a top guy as the team was still relying on most of those old guys....and he was 3rd on the team in scoring (playoffs) in 2004

Once he became a top line player, and relied upon for his scoring he has been essentially a PPG player, which just so happened to be since the lockout...different league before then



Kesler's 33 points in 47 games is significantly better, just saying....And last time I checked, his team was in the finals this year while we got swept by the team they took to 7 games.



Havent seen any evidence that he will be yet



Sorry, I dont know about you...but I dont feel like not being able to improve this team because we decide we are going to wait 7 more years for Carter to have the possibility of one huge playoff run.



So I guess you want to ignore the fact that Richards was just as good in that Calder Cup run....he just was busy leading his OHL team in the playoffs a lot further than Carters and played in less games. Richards had 2 GWG to Carter's 3, but in 7 less games....hmmm

Who was the captain of that 2005 WJC gold medal winning team???

How about Richards 27 points in 21 playoff games leading his OHL team to the Memorial Cup in 2003. How many memorial cups did Carter win?

Its simple. To date, at every level they have played, Richards is better, period.
don't talk sense to these guys, they can't handle the truth

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06-22-2011, 01:34 AM
  #570
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don't talk sense to these guys, they can't handle the truth
too many stat hounds on these boards

nice post mikedifr btw.

Sick of hearing the Carter to Age comparisons, b.c frankly once he potted his 45+ goals a few years back he cashed his check (figuratively and literally (11 year contract anyone?))to being a go to guy in the post season, and frankly if he isn't old enough to play (up to his gaudy regular season standards) post season hoockey well , Staal, Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane, Bergeron... ect are all young and now have hoisted the hardware, yet we have to keep having to hear about Carter's "production" over the past 3 seasons compared to his "peers"

to each their own though, good for JesuCristo and his regular season stats

If the team, or individuals over the regular season with the best stats was the winner, then frankly there'd be no reason to actually have a post-season, and Vancouver would now be celebrating its 1st Cup


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06-22-2011, 01:35 AM
  #571
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So why can't we just keep Carter and trade Versteeg again? I'll ignore Carle because of Pronger and Kimmo's age.

Carter hasn't done **** in the playoffs, but Voracek and the 8th (as attractive as they are in rebuilding our pool) haven't done much to say they can replace him. Some people are acting like we can just trade away our second-best two way forward and not skip a beat.

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Originally Posted by Chicken Chaser View Post
too many stat hounds on these boards

nice post mikedifr btw.

Sick of hearing the Carter to Age comparisons, b.c frankly once he potted his 45+ goals a few years back he cashed his check to being a go to guy in the post season, and frankly if he isn't old enough to play post season hoockey well , Staal, Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane, Bergeron... ect are all young and now have hoisted the hardware, yet we have to keep having to hear about Carter's "production" over the past 3 seasons compared to his "peers"

to each their own though, good for JesuCristo and his regular season stats
Hm? That year was the first year after he got his RFA contract. I'm not sure I'd excuse Carter's lack of performance by pointing out his age. I can confidently say that Briere wouldn't have done much in the last three years if he had a separated shoulder, two broken feet, and a sprained MCL.

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06-22-2011, 01:39 AM
  #572
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Woof and CG....I love Richards as much as the next guy, but I think Roo is the better player. I agree though, I cant understand why Richards gets so little respect but Carter gets all the excuses in the world....Richards is clearly the better player by a mile.
Giroux's (one) great year: 0.93 PPG

Richards has two better seasons under his belt, both by the time he was Giroux's age now. Since then Richards has had to lug around the weak top 9 forward every season. The year before last he had one of the most impressive seasons of defensive hockey that we've seen from a forward in recent memory.

Giroux isn't a better player. He's actually a craptastic defensive player, and the only reason his line was passable defensively last year? Jeff Carter. BTW, the team was also more likely to score with Carter on the ice than Giroux, too. Giroux was 13th on the team in GAON/60 for forwards at 2.47... what is interesting about that is that Carter, oh-so-often his linemate, was an impressive 2.15.

Quote:
You mean that playoff year where he had ZERO points and was invisible in 8 of those 12 games and 5 of his 7 points came in 2 games??? No not good enough for me. Sorry.

While we are at it:

2011 - All but one game he had zero points
2010 (see above)
2009 - All but one game he had zero points
2008, his best playoff years, but largely due to one good series (against Montreal) Did nothing in all but 1 game against Washington, and did nothing and was a -6 vs. Pitt.
2006 - Zero points in 6 games (was a rookie so in and of itself not a huge deal, but he hasnt improved)

So.....His playoff career he has been good in a 5 game series against Montreal (who we alway beat up) and maybe 2-3 other games. So rough estimate, 7-8 games out of 47. Nope, not good enough for me for a $5.5 million dollar player who is supposed to be on our top line and our top scorer.
So even when he plays well, it isn't good enough because of who we beat? I mean, give me a *ing break. This line of reasoning is *ing pathetic. Briere had 5 pts total after the Washington series and was -5...

Of course, I think everything should really devolve onto the claim that Carter "hasn't improved" since 2006... ya know, when he was defensive sieve.

Quote:
Datsyuk is a borderline Superstar.....Carter is a 2nd line center at best.....In 2002 (when for the record they won the Cup) he was a 3rd line player behind the likes of Fedorov, Yzerman, Shanahan, Robitaille, Larionov, Hull, etc. All those guys were still there in 2003 and 2004 he still wasnt a top guy as the team was still relying on most of those old guys....and he was 3rd on the team in scoring (playoffs) in 2004

Once he became a top line player, and relied upon for his scoring he has been essentially a PPG player, which just so happened to be since the lockout...different league before then
Mike, I like you, but you're continuing a tangent that is, frankly, dumb. You're buying into RJ8812's complete misunderstanding of the *ing point. The comparison is not between Carter and Datsyuk as players. ****, it isn't even a comparison about their roles on their respective teams. It's about their relatively production.

I expect a 30 pt player to perform like a 30 pt player... I expect an 80 pt player to perform like an 80 pt player.... over a large sample.

Pavel Datsyuk until he was 28.

Regular season: 284 GP 241 PTS 0.85 PPG
Playoffs: 42 GP 15 PTS 0.36 PPG

What you just provided was a whole bunch of excuses for Datsyuk VASTLY under performing in the playoffs, while on the other hand lambasting Carter for under performing.

Lets be real: this entire line of reasoning is pure hypocrisy. Especially on the heels of you complaining about people making excuses for Carter. After his rookie year, Datsyuk was getting 18 minutes a night in the playoffs... he wasn't being held back by the depth on the team.

Quote:
Kesler's 33 points in 47 games is significantly better, just saying....And last time I checked, his team was in the finals this year while we got swept by the team they took to 7 games.
Carter's team was in the Finals last year... with Michael friggin Leighton as the goalie.

Quote:
Havent seen any evidence that he will be yet



Sorry, I dont know about you...but I dont feel like not being able to improve this team because we decide we are going to wait 7 more years for Carter to have the possibility of one huge playoff run.
That's great, what if he has a break out year next year? What if he has 7 consecutive great playoff runs?

That's the problem with the absolute paucity of critical thinking displayed here. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that Carter will not perform next year in the playoffs. And do not cite the fact that he hasn't performed previously, because as I've proven repetitively: that argument is just plain *ing dumb. Players fail to perform and then suddenly perform.

Some players are going to have monster years and then slowly revert to mean over the course of their career.

Quote:
So I guess you want to ignore the fact that Richards was just as good in that Calder Cup run....he just was busy leading his OHL team in the playoffs a lot further than Carters and played in less games. Richards had 2 GWG to Carter's 3, but in 7 less games....hmmm

Who was the captain of that 2005 WJC gold medal winning team???

How about Richards 27 points in 21 playoff games leading his OHL team to the Memorial Cup in 2003. How many memorial cups did Carter win?

Its simple. To date, at every level they have played, Richards is better, period.
Whether Richards is better or not has absolutely *ing nothing to do with whether or not Carter performed well or not. In fact, pretty sure Carter holds the all-time record for points in the WJC. Clearly he was showing up for the thing.

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06-22-2011, 01:42 AM
  #573
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Originally Posted by Chicken Chaser View Post
too many stat hounds on these boards

nice post mikedifr btw.

Sick of hearing the Carter to Age comparisons, b.c frankly once he potted his 45+ goals a few years back he cashed his check (figuratively and literally (11 year contract anyone?))to being a go to guy in the post season, and frankly if he isn't old enough to play post season hoockey well , Staal, Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane, Bergeron... ect are all young and now have hoisted the hardware, yet we have to keep having to hear about Carter's "production" over the past 3 seasons compared to his "peers"

to each their own though, good for JesuCristo and his regular season stats

If the team with the best stats was the winner, then frankly there'd be no reason to actually have a post-season, and Vancouver would now be celebrating its 1st Cup
I like the stats don't matter... and the regular season doesn't mean anything crowd.

I mean, that's why teams without home ice in the first round win the Stanley Cup with such regularity... cuz the regular season doesn't matter, and it's all about showing up in the playoffs.

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06-22-2011, 01:48 AM
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Chicken Chaser
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I like the stats don't matter... and the regular season doesn't mean anything crowd.

I mean, that's why teams without home ice in the first round win the Stanley Cup with such regularity... cuz the regular season doesn't matter, and it's all about showing up in the playoffs.
Vancouver used their regular season expertise and all that hard work to gain the most important game of their lives to a "T" in game 7 didn't they?

Last year's Flyers and this Years Packers ring a bell perhaps??

Guess not

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06-22-2011, 01:49 AM
  #575
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Vancouver used their regular season expertise and all that hard work to gain the most important game of their lives to a "T" in game 7 didn't they?
If you don't own home ice in the first round... your chance of winning the Stanley Cup is pretty much non-existent.

If the regular season wasn't indicative of much, then the above statement would not be irrefutable.

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