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Travis Hamonic or Luke Schenn in the Future?

View Poll Results: Who would you want in the Future?
Luke Schenn 126 59.15%
Travis Hamonic 87 40.85%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-21-2011, 11:53 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classyhabsfan View Post
You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say he had tapped out offensively or anything of the sort. As of right now, Schenn isn't good offensively. Do you disagree?



Of course its ridiculous when you dont take into account that Hamonic played 20 games less than Schenn. Stats like total takeaways, Hits and blocked shots becomes meaningless when you ignore the fact that Hamonic played 20 less games.. The stats Lehner posted are much better.



Hamonic had 4 points on the PP this year playing 1.59 a game. Schenn had 0 points on the PP playing 0.59 a game.. PP time didn't have much effect on their total amount of points. I dont see anything wrong with the Stats Lehner posted, and they provide much more context than the stats he quoted. The only thing he didn't consider was PP time, which wouldn't have changed very much.
Those stats were only better because they favor Hamonic.

"he played in fewer games and had more points. That's good"
"Schenn had more hits and blocked shots"
"that's not fair. Hamonic played fewer games"

Yeah, it's fine to use that when it favors Hamonic.

Also those 4 points on the powerplay is what separates the two. Take them away and they each have 22.

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06-22-2011, 12:02 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
Those stats were only better because they favor Hamonic.

"he played in fewer games and had more points. That's good"
"Schenn had more hits and blocked shots"
"that's not fair. Hamonic played fewer games"

Yeah, it's fine to use that when it favors Hamonic.

Also those 4 points on the powerplay is what separates the two. Take them away and they each have 22.
Are you for real? It has absolutely nothing to do with the stats favoring Hamonic and you know it. Unless you'd expect Hamonic to go without any hits, TA's or blocked shots in the 20 games he didn't play in.. Hamonic put up more points in 20 less games while Schenn blocked more shots and had more hits in 20 more games. Do you not see the difference?

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06-22-2011, 12:06 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Classyhabsfan View Post
Are you for real? It has absolutely nothing to do with the stats favoring Hamonic and you know it. Unless you'd expect Hamonic to go without any hits, TA's or blocked shots in the 20 games he didn't play in.. Hamonic put up more points in 20 less games while Schenn blocked more shots and had more hits in 20 more games. Do you not see the difference?
This I understand. What I don't like is Lehner calling every stat Schenn led in not "real stats".

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06-22-2011, 12:12 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Voodoo Child View Post
And let's also not forget that they're the same age. Hamonic had a good year, but that doesn't mean he's better than a guy the same age who has accomplished a lot more.

Hamonic had a full minute more of PPTOI, and 34 seconds less SHTOI. He plays easier minutes than Schenn and gets more opportunities to score.

As for people saying shutdown guys are more common, blech. What's more common? A guy with top-5 in the NHL shutdown potential (He's already top-20 easily) and 35 point upside (Schenn) or 35-50 point two-way guys (Hamonic)?
Hamonic was on the top pairing and played against the opposition's top line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
He's got a long way to go. IIRC, Phil Kessel of all people outmuscled him and scored a goal because of it earlier this season.
Hum yeah, that one play proves that he's weak and that he's got a long way to go...

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06-22-2011, 12:16 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
This I understand. What I don't like is Lehner calling every stat Schenn led in not "real stats".
Probably only because the guy he quoted didn't take into account that Hamonic played 20 less games. Schenn still wins in both the Hit and Blocked shots category with hamonics adjusted stats. Its just a way of looking at how both players performed on average in both offensive and defensive categories. I think that gives us a clearer picture than just looking at hits, blocked shots, TA's GA's without even mentioning that Schenn played 82 games and Hamonic played 62..

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06-22-2011, 12:18 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairenough View Post
Hamonic was on the top pairing and played against the opposition's top line.



Hum yeah, that one play proves that he's weak and that he's got a long way to go...
He got those top line minutes mostly due to injuries and trades on your back end.

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06-22-2011, 12:20 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Classyhabsfan View Post
Probably only because the guy he quoted didn't take into account that Hamonic played 20 less games. Schenn still wins in both the Hit and Blocked shots category with hamonics adjusted stats. Its just a way of looking at how both players performed on average in both offensive and defensive categories. I think that gives us a clearer picture than just looking at hits, blocked shots, TA's GA's without even mentioning that Schenn played 82 games and Hamonic played 62..
I get that Hamonic played 20 less games this year and did okay. He also played 149 less games in the last two years, he's not better or even as good.

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06-22-2011, 12:23 AM
  #58
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Hamonic was beyond impressive and I definitely do believe that his upside is higher than Schenn's. I really like Schenn for what he is, but all-around I don't think he'll ever have Hamonic's impact.

Needless to say that I think really highly of Hamonic. He's got it all...

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06-22-2011, 12:31 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
He got those top line minutes mostly due to injuries and trades on your back end.
Yeah, so what? He got those minutes and he took the ball and ran with it. If anything, it makes it even more commendable. He showed everybody that he DESERVED those minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Child View Post
I get that Hamonic played 20 less games this year and did okay. He also played 149 less games in the last two years, he's not better or even as good.
What kind of logic is that? Would you trade Kadri and Colborne for Josh Bailey, then?

What matters is how good the player eventually becomes. Schenn got a headstart in the NHL...good for him. It does not mean that he'll be better than a guy who took 2 years to get there. All it means is that, at age 18, he was probably more developed/polished than the other guy (or he was rushed).

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06-22-2011, 12:33 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Child View Post
I get that Hamonic played 20 less games this year and did okay. He also played 149 less games in the last two years, he's not better or even as good.
We're never going to agree on this.. I'm fine with people thinking Schenn is better. Differing opinions is what makes this place what it is. What I dont like is when people come in here to ridicule other posters opinion when its clearly pretty close. or to claim that people hate the Leafs just for comparing Hamonic to Schenn..

No one knows what the future holds, so we'll just have to wait and see. I'll take Hamonic for the future and you'll take Schenn. Nothing wrong with that.

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06-22-2011, 12:36 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
Isles fans are beatin their meat to Hamonic. Probably never even watched Schenn play because many are saying Schenn is 'a bit better defensively' when in reality it is not even close...

If Schenn was on let's say... idk maybe Buffalo. People wouldn't even compare these two because Schenn is much better.
Yep, all of us Islander fans have gone out of our way to avoid every leaf game. And Leaf fans definitely aren't 'beating their meat to Schenn' or anything. Just clear cut answers of "This is so disgusting that Schenn is being discussed in the same sentence as Hamonic, this is so unfair! Everyone hates the Leafs!!!1111!1!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by hskates21 View Post
i dont know how many games schenn played but hamonic played around 60 so i dont know if this is fair or not...
Schenn played 82, Hamonic 62. The right thing to do, which Lehner pointed out, is to even it out and go by Per Game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
He got those top line minutes mostly due to injuries and trades on your back end.
So? He thrived being thrown into the fire as a rookie. It's not like he pulled a Bruno Gervais and blew with responsibility, he was incredible contrarily to Leaf fans opinions.

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06-22-2011, 12:48 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
This I understand. What I don't like is Lehner calling every stat Schenn led in not "real stats".
If anything the poster above me put out stats that favoured Schenn completely, and didnt even dare to write out G / A / P. Do goals and assists not matter anymore?

Im sorry you dont like me writing the correct stats per game, sorry i forgot PP time, but I really didn't think that was necessary.

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06-22-2011, 12:51 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lehner View Post
If anything the poster above me put out stats that favoured Schenn completely, and didnt even dare to write out G / A / P. Do goals and assists not matter anymore?

Im sorry you dont like me writing the correct stats per game, sorry i forgot PP time, but I really didn't think that was necessary.
Obviously they matter. All stats matter is what im getting at. It's fine to point out stats he missed and break it down into a per game basis, but calling the other stats fake is wrong.

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06-22-2011, 12:54 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
Obviously they matter. All stats matter is what im getting at. It's fine to point out stats he missed and break it down into a per game basis, but calling the other stats fake is wrong.
Where did I say anywhere those stats were fake?

Im not going to lie tho, Goals, Assist, Points, and Hits are imo worth a lot more then Giveaways, Takeaways, +/-, Blocked Shots.

And why does more PP time decrease a players value, just shows he is the best player for the job. There must be a reason Schenn doesnt have as much PP time as Hamonic right? Same goes for PK, Schenn must be one of the better players on the leafs to block shots and play the PK, while in NYI they had 3 or so guys better then Hamonic.


Last edited by Lehner: 06-22-2011 at 12:59 AM.
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06-22-2011, 12:58 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classyhabsfan View Post
We're never going to agree on this.. I'm fine with people thinking Schenn is better. Differing opinions is what makes this place what it is. What I dont like is when people come in here to ridicule other posters opinion when its clearly pretty close. or to claim that people hate the Leafs just for comparing Hamonic to Schenn..

No one knows what the future holds, so we'll just have to wait and see. I'll take Hamonic for the future and you'll take Schenn. Nothing wrong with that.
Yeah seriously.

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06-22-2011, 01:03 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Lehner View Post
Where did I say anywhere those stats were fake?

Im not going to lie tho, Goals, Assist, Points, and Hits are imo worth a lot more then Giveaways, Takeaways, +/-, Blocked Shots.
You said he didn't add any "real stats". The opposite of real is fake. That's essentially what you said.

As for what stats are important, depends on what you're looking for. If I want a defensive defenseman, I'll look at things like blocked shots and takeaways, and giveaways. Goals and points wouldn't matter here as that is not what I'd rely on him to do.

If i want an offensive defenseman I'll look at goals and points. That player is being payed to score, so blocked shots and such would be irrelevant.

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06-22-2011, 01:06 AM
  #67
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Are people really comparing a guy that is an NHL regular to a guy that isn't one yet? I am picking neither until I see what the other has to offer in 2 full NHL seasons.

Offensively though, Hamonic has Schenn beat, but we'll see how Hamonic progresses in his 2nd season to get a better idea of his potential. The book isn't written on Luke either, but there is enough of an idea of what he is capable of while for Travis, it's not as clear.

This is like me comparing Crosby to Skinner.

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06-22-2011, 01:06 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
Isles fans are beatin their meat to Hamonic. Probably never even watched Schenn play because many are saying Schenn is 'a bit better defensively' when in reality it is not even close...

If Schenn was on let's say... idk maybe Buffalo. People wouldn't even compare these two because Schenn is much better.
You mean like some Leafs fans are doing with Schenn in this thread?

Also pretty obvious you haven't seen much at all of Hamonic so I wouldn't throw around that 'you haven't seen player X' line. I don't see why is it so outlandish to say Schenn is a bit better defensively, Hamonic was drafted as a physical shutdown guy, he was very raw at the time though, and went on to develop an offensive game as well.

Which ever of the two you prefer it is pretty obvious they are close.

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06-22-2011, 01:31 AM
  #69
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It pretty much comes down too,

Schenn will be a top defensive defenseman and will always be limited in the number of points he will get because he just isn't as skilled offensively.

Hamonic will be very capable defensively (may not be as good as Schenn but will be real close), but Hamonic has the skill and vision to be a top overall defenseman. He will be able to run a first line powerplay.

I just dont see Schenn being able to be that much better defensively to make up 30(approx) more points by Hamonic.

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06-22-2011, 01:32 AM
  #70
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travis hamonic got top minutes playing PP while Schenn didn't. yeah, hamonic played 20 less games, but he got 2x as much total PP time

believe it or not, NYI actually had better goaltending for most of the season than the Leafs did between Montoya, Roloson, and Poulin vs Reimer (goalies from both teams who had >.900 SV%)

NYI also had more goals for than the leafs who led the league in getting shutout for most of the season

Schenn is a better defenseman overall. all of you look at Hamonic's offensive numbers, but that doesn't explain everything. it's sad and hilarious at the same time. Hamonic's play on ice is average at most.

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06-22-2011, 01:38 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vezna View Post
travis hamonic got top minutes playing PP while Schenn didn't. yeah, hamonic played 20 less games, but he got 2x as much total PP time

believe it or not, NYI actually had better goaltending for most of the season than the Leafs did between Montoya, Roloson, and Poulin vs Reimer (goalies from both teams who had >.900 SV%)

NYI also had more goals for than the leafs who led the league in getting shutout for most of the season

Schenn is a better defenseman overall. all of you look at Hamonic's offensive numbers, but that doesn't explain everything. it's sad and hilarious at the same time. Hamonic's play on ice is average at most.
Theres a reason Schenn doesnt get as much powerplay time, hes just not as good as other players on Toronto's defense. If he is the better defenseman overall, why isnt he used on the powerplay, instead of being behind Matt Lashoff, Brett Lebda, Francois Beauchemin, Carl Gunnarsson in PP TOI?

overall - doesnt mean only defensively, offense matters too.

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06-22-2011, 01:40 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Lehner View Post
Theres a reason Schenn doesnt get as much powerplay time, hes just not as good as other players on Toronto's defense. If he is the better defenseman overall, why isnt he used on the powerplay, instead of being behind Matt Lashoff, Brett Lebda, Francois Beauchemin, Carl Gunnarsson in PP TOI?

overall - doesnt mean only defensively, offense matters too.
so schenn is worse because the leafs has a better blue line?

lolol

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06-22-2011, 01:44 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by vezna View Post
so schenn is worse because the leafs has a better blue line?

lolol
Thats what i wanted you to say, if you have an overall good defense-man how the **** is he not played over Matt Lashoff, Brett Lebda, Francois Beauchemin, Carl Gunnarsson?

Please dont tell me those players are better then Schenn...

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06-22-2011, 01:44 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Hits:
Schenn 251 (1st)
Hamonic 118 (54th)

Huge discrepancy, this easily goes to Schenn. That said, hitting is not the end all and be all of defensemen.

Giveaways:
Schenn 95 (1st)
Hamonic 50 (49th)

Obviously up there in Hamonics favor by a great deal. On the other side, joining Schenn in the top 10? Doughty, Seabrook, Burns, and Keith...

Takeaways:
Schenn 38 (23rd)
Hamonic 45 (13th)

Fairly close here, with Hamonic getting the nod. Could go either way.

Blocked shots:
Schenn 168 (12th)
Hamonic 118 (74th)

Big gap in Schenn's favor.

So overall, Hamonic has slightly more takeaways and a lot less giveaways, while being vastly less physical and not blocking nearly as many shots.
Last year was Hamonic's first NHL season which he was better than Schenn's first season by a whole lot imo. Schenn has 3 NHL seasons under his belt already, Hamonic will be better offensively no doubt about it and Schenn will probably be better defensively, but Hamonic will be the better player overall.

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06-22-2011, 01:45 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vezna View Post
travis hamonic got top minutes playing PP while Schenn didn't. yeah, hamonic played 20 less games, but he got 2x as much total PP time

believe it or not, NYI actually had better goaltending for most of the season than the Leafs did between Montoya, Roloson, and Poulin vs Reimer (goalies from both teams who had >.900 SV%)

NYI also had more goals for than the leafs who led the league in getting shutout for most of the season

Schenn is a better defenseman overall. all of you look at Hamonic's offensive numbers, but that doesn't explain everything. it's sad and hilarious at the same time. Hamonic's play on ice is average at most.
Hamonic wasn't even on the PP for the first half of the year. Hamonic had 123 total PP mins, Schenn had 80, that doesn't look like double the amount to me. But only on HF can you be criticized for getting PP time and producing.

Reimer was awesome last year, I don't see how the Isles had better goaltending, especially with the worst starter in the league starting almost 30 games. Not sure what this even has to do with this though.

And after watching Hamonic for the entire season, I can tell you his play was much better than average, your just flat out wrong.

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