- Markov if not playing with Montreal, will be playing elsewhere in the East.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coastal_nuck
Ehrhoff's puck moving ability and his skating is what makes him so useful, he provides that good first pass to get the transition going. I think our greatest strength all season was our ability to transition from our own zone up ice and Erhoff was a big contributor to that type of game. If we can keep him at a decent price, I say that we should. There aren't too many better options in the UFA market at this moment on D anyway.
Agreed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crows
Bob Mackenzie was on the team 1040 this morning, and he was saying he thinks 4.5 per year gets it done for ehrhoff to stay in Vancouver.
Seems low to me. Guess it depends on the term.
I think the Canucks want $4.5M per, while CE's agent is wanting $5M per, but hoffer has said you have to sway the Canucks way a bit, so I'm thinking something like a 6 year - $29M contract ($4.833M per)
But agreed with some others, I'd be fine with $5M-$5.25M for him, as he's just that important to our short and long term success.
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http://goo.gl/1zalO
Mike Gillis of the Canucks was just on the Bill Watters Show on 640am in Toronto (2009). He feels he defense can now generate 180-200 points from his defense and that is what he was looking for.
He said you need puck moving dmen and offensive-minded too in order to be successful in the league.
They realized depth at ‘D’ was an issue and felt they needed 8 NHL type dmen to succeed this year.
Considering what MG has said he wants from his defensive corps, and what Ehrhoff has managed to do since his arrival in Vancouver, helping to make us a high octane fast offensive team, I think MG gets this done before July 1st. CE has also been one of our more healthier dmen since his arrival (knock on wood).
Plus if WE want to be the next Detroit, constant contenders, re-signing someone as important as Ehrhoff makes perfect sense in Gillis's master plan for the Canucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyforhockey
would be nice to add Laich or Upshall for Kesler
I'd rather have Dupuis than Upshall who has had a injury plagued career, and Dupuis has some cup winning experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck
I think Gillis will make one major move. Somehow acquiring an impact winger for the 2nd line seems to be the most helpful addition. The ripple-down effect would also solidify the 3rd and 4th lines.
Agreed, after he deals with the draft, re-signing both Hoffer & Juice, acquiring a 2nd line goal scoring winger will be his main goal imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyC
Doan comes to Vancouver to have a shot at the cup. Boy that'd be wonderful.
My thoughts exactly, he'd fit in well here!
As for Higgins, I only wouldn't mind him if he came cheap and he'd be ok playing on the 3rd line, to help Manny and Hodgson, so they have a decent offensive guy to play with.
4.5 is a fair number for Ehrhoff. As good as he is on the offensive side, he's just not good enough on defense to warrant anything more. The market has always been geared towards defensemen who can play defense. Offensive d-men who aren't strong defenders aren't that attractive. It's hard to justify paying a d-men 5 - 5.5 million to be the last line of defence, but can't effectively prevent the opposition from getting to the goalie.
Players like Hamhuis and Paul Martin more fit the mold of a defenseman that teams will spend around 5 million for. Great in their own zone, and just enough offensive ability to carry the puck out or make a breakout pass.
Teams will pay a premium for d-men with a boatload of offensive skill, but first and foremost, they have to be good in their own zone as well, which Ehrhoff is not.
I'm of the opinion that players like Laich aren't what the Canucks need.
His EV strength numbers are fairly similar to Raymond's, and Laich won't be playing with a great PP unit like in Washington.
I agree. With Kesler riding shotgun with the Sedins on the 1st unit PP there won't be much opportunity to rack up PP points for the 2nd line winger we bring in. And Brooks like hasn't outproduced Brendan Morrison 5 on 5 for the last 2-3 years. Would we be happy with 45 points at $4mil a season?
The 2nd line winger should be a good even strength player and ideally be able to QB the 2nd PP unit. Laich is a 30-35 ES point guy and wouldn't bring any much needed creativity and playmaking ability to the 2nd unit.
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Excluding this past year Tim Connolly has a higher PPG than Brad Richards over their previous 4 season's combined. Not bad for a guy that will likely come in at a fraction of the price of the most sought after free agent on the market.
Look at what the Flames did by signing Tanguay coming off a poor season statistically. It's a very similar situation with Connolly, though the latter has more questions regarding durability...
You could be looking at a 70 point season on what amounts to basically an entry level contract. Connolly is probably your best bet if you're looking for a player to grossly outperform their contract. IMO it's a no-brainer if he's willing to sign a cheap, 1 year deal.
The others who saw ice time in the playoffs - Glass (28), Tambellini (27), Bolduc (26) - are wysiwig 4th liners (at best some would say though I would disagree on Tambo).
Kudos on fitting WYSIWYG into your post. You are dating yourself though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel
The 2nd line winger should be a good even strength player and ideally be able to QB the 2nd PP unit.
I completely agree.
Quote:
Look at what the Flames did by signing Tanguay coming off a poor season statistically. It's a very similar situation with Connolly, though the latter has more questions regarding durability...
Even though the thought of grabbing a player on a cheap(er) contract with the potential for a bounce back year is tempting, I am not convinced it is the right move for a contending team. With the luxury of a large cap increase I think a more established player would make sense.
Word is Tanguay's contract talks with Calgary are not as smooth as expected (Toronto Star article). Tanguay is a proven playmaker with good EV numbers and QB a PP. I would rather spend $4M on Tanguay than $2M (or whatever it is) on Connolly.
Even though the thought of grabbing a player on a cheap(er) contract with the potential for a bounce back year is tempting, I am not convinced it is the right move for a contending team. With the luxury of a large cap increase I think a more established player would make sense.
Word is Tanguay's contract talks with Calgary are not as smooth as expected. Toronto Star article. Tanguay is a proven playmaker with good EV numbers and QB a PP. I would rather spend $4M on Tanguay than $2M (or whatever it is) on Connolly.
Connolly would be a backup plan if the Canucks can't address their needs in free agency or through trade at the draft. I doubt he's any teams 1st choice to sign at this point. IMO there's a good chance he remains unsigned for a few days/weeks following July 1st. Could re-visit him later on in the summer if there's cap space and a roster spot still available.
I would also prefer Tanguay to Connolly at those figures. Wouldn't hesitate to give him 2 years, $4mil per. Very underrated player that would take a lot of pressure off Kesler and the Sedins offensively.
Not to mention, I think Iginla and the Flames would go down the toilet if he left. 2 birds with 1 stone.
Tanguay has a whopping 18.8% shooting percentage over his career - that's a valuable stat when you consider how infrequently he would be shooting the puck with Kesler and Samuelsson on his wing. He's a consistent 20-25 goalscorer witout taking hardly any shots...
He's also been a plus player in 10 of 11 seasons - a career +155 - his worst showing was a -2. Should be more than capable of playing tough minutes alongside Kesler.
Last edited by Drop the Sopel: 06-22-2011 at 10:41 AM.
Connolly would be a backup plan if the Canucks can't address their needs in free agency or through trade at the draft. I doubt he's any teams 1st choice to sign at this point. IMO there's a good chance he remains unsigned for a few days/weeks following July 1st. Could re-visit him later on in the summer if there's cap space and a roster spot still available.
Fair enough.
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I would also prefer Tanguay to Connolly at those figures. Wouldn't hesitate to give him 2 years, $4mil per. Very underrated player that would take a lot of pressure off Kesler and the Sedins offensively.
Come on Gillis, get it done.
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Not to mention, I think Iginla and the Flames would go down the toilet if he left. 2 birds with 1 stone.
It's the little things in life, like this, that gives so much happiness.
4.5 is a fair number for Ehrhoff. As good as he is on the offensive side, he's just not good enough on defense to warrant anything more. The market has always been geared towards defensemen who can play defense. Offensive d-men who aren't strong defenders aren't that attractive. It's hard to justify paying a d-men 5 - 5.5 million to be the last line of defence, but can't effectively prevent the opposition from getting to the goalie.
Players like Hamhuis and Paul Martin more fit the mold of a defenseman that teams will spend around 5 million for. Great in their own zone, and just enough offensive ability to carry the puck out or make a breakout pass.
Teams will pay a premium for d-men with a boatload of offensive skill, but first and foremost, they have to be good in their own zone as well, which Ehrhoff is not.
Like Brian Campbell, or Vishnoski of Anaheim, or Gonchar, or Souray or Rafalski. Erhoff was one of the top defenseman on the best defensive team in the NHL. While playing on the pk and pp. He is worth atleast as much as Hamhuis and Martin. He would get a premium. Kaberle was seen as unpaid(before end of this year) at 4 million a year. If Ehrhoff would sign for 5 you do it.
Connolly would be a backup plan if the Canucks can't address their needs in free agency or through trade at the draft. I doubt he's any teams 1st choice to sign at this point. IMO there's a good chance he remains unsigned for a few days/weeks following July 1st. Could re-visit him later on in the summer if there's cap space and a roster spot still available.
I would also prefer Tanguay to Connolly at those figures. Wouldn't hesitate to give him 2 years, $4mil per. Very underrated player that would take a lot of pressure off Kesler and the Sedins offensively.
Not to mention, I think Iginla and the Flames would go down the toilet if he left. 2 birds with 1 stone.
Tanguay has a whopping 18.8% shooting percentage over his career - that's a valuable stat when you consider how infrequently he would be shooting the puck with Kesler and Samuelsson on his wing. He's a consistent 20-25 goalscorer witout taking hardly any shots...
He's also been a plus player in 10 of 11 seasons - a career +155 - his worst showing was a -2. Should be more than capable of playing tough minutes alongside Kesler.
Yeah, I'm pretty much convinced signing Tanguay would be one of the best upgrades Gillis could make up front. While I agree with those that suggest we need more grit in the lineup due to the Canucks' performance against the Bruins (Laich), I can't help but feel that the BIGGER issue in that series was the fact the Canucks only scored 8 goals in 7 games. In a nutshell, the team needs a bit more skill. They've got the elite core players - D. Sedin, H. Sedin and Kesler - but a tier 2 forward like Tanguay is absolutely needed to round out the forward core. He can skate well and he's a slick playmaking winger; a perfect fit for Kesler.
The reason I do like the idea of Connolly, too, is that the 2nd PP unit NEEDS a playmaking centerman to control things. During the regular season, people were saying, "Why do we need a legit center for the 2nd unit when the 1st unit takes care of business most of the time?". While that was true at the time, look at how the PP dried up against Boston and how the 2nd unit didn't even look it was close to being able to step up. The 2nd unit was pretty much an experiment all year. That needs to change. If Hodgson has his breakout next season than he could be that guy, too. However, a decently skilled centerman is still needed in case that doesn't happen. I don't know where such a player would fit in the lineup, though, so such a player would have to be acquired instead of Tanguay.
Interesting discussion in the Trade forum regarding Keith Yandle and a possible offer sheet. The idea is to front-load it so much that there's no possible way Phoenix could afford it. One of the proposed options was 11-8-5-2-1 for a $5.4m cap hit. Canucks would need to acquire their 3rd to pull it off, I believe, but it's actually quite reasonable and there's no chance of Phoenix matching it (11m and 8m in the first two years would kill them), assuming that Yandle accepts.
I know people proposed some crazy stuff with Weber, but a) Nashville has enough money to match even crazy offer sheets, b) he's looking for more money and term than Yandle which makes it kind of difficult to execute.
^After all the "Luongo $10m goalie" crap that flew for the last few years, I can't imagine how people would freak with Keith Yandle earning $11m per season. He's very good, but he's not highest-annual-salary-in-the-league good.
Looking more at the UFA route, Brooks Laich becomes more appealing. Certainly a guy with good size and a willingness to use it and good grit, three time 20+ goal scorer...although if he put up the numbers he did with the Canucks that he did with the Caps this year, he likely would have been criticised as much as Mason Raymond was. 16 goals on Kesler's wing wouldn't/shouldn't cut it.
^After all the "Luongo $10m goalie" crap that flew for the last few years, I can't imagine how people would freak with Keith Yandle earning $11m per season. He's very good, but he's not highest-annual-salary-in-the-league good.
Different contract though. This wouldn't be a retirement contract, it would just be a way to structure the offer sheet so that Phoenix can't match it. If you just offer 5.4m each year for 5 years then they match without any hesitation.
Like Brian Campbell, or Vishnoski of Anaheim, or Gonchar, or Souray or Rafalski. Erhoff was one of the top defenseman on the best defensive team in the NHL. While playing on the pk and pp. He is worth atleast as much as Hamhuis and Martin. He would get a premium. Kaberle was seen as unpaid(before end of this year) at 4 million a year. If Ehrhoff would sign for 5 you do it.
All of those guys are/were on offensive levels that Ehrhoff can only dream of and only Visnovsky and Souray could be considered subpar defenders. Those two are getting paid 5.6 and 5.4 million, respectively. Marek Zidlicky or Mark Streit, whom I think are more similar players to Ehrhoff than any of the ones you named, are making 4 and 4.1, respectively. I don't think it's a stretch to say that 4.5 is a fair number for Ehrhoff. Do I think he'll get more? Maybe, maybe not, but imo, 4.5 for a player of Ehrhoff's skills sounds about right to me.
^After all the "Luongo $10m goalie" crap that flew for the last few years, I can't imagine how people would freak with Keith Yandle earning $11m per season. He's very good, but he's not highest-annual-salary-in-the-league good.
Looking more at the UFA route, Brooks Laich becomes more appealing. Certainly a guy with good size and a willingness to use it and good grit, three time 20+ goal scorer...although if he put up the numbers he did with the Canucks that he did with the Caps this year, he likely would have been criticised as much as Mason Raymond was. 16 goals on Kesler's wing wouldn't/shouldn't cut it.
Is Laich even an upgrade on Jannik Hansen? On the surface, it appears so, but when you consider Laich is really only a 30-35 point player at even strength and the steady progression of Hansen I'm not so sure that would be the case over the next 2-3 years.
Not to mention Chris Higgins brings even strength scoring equal to or better than Laich, and like Hansen will come in much much cheaper.
Laich has never produced like a top 6 talent 5 on 5. And that has to be a red flag coming from an organization that has had a lot skill and offense throughout the lineup.
I have little to interst in seeing the Canucks outbid other teams for a guy that won't get much opportunity on the PP and a very pedestrian scorer 5 on 5. There's just no value there unless he takes another step in his development - probably a risky proposition for a 28 year old...
Interesting discussion in the Trade forum regarding Keith Yandle and a possible offer sheet. The idea is to front-load it so much that there's no possible way Phoenix could afford it. One of the proposed options was 11-8-5-2-1 for a $5.4m cap hit. Canucks would need to acquire their 3rd to pull it off, I believe, but it's actually quite reasonable and there's no chance of Phoenix matching it (11m and 8m in the first two years would kill them), assuming that Yandle accepts.
I know people proposed some crazy stuff with Weber, but a) Nashville has enough money to match even crazy offer sheets, b) he's looking for more money and term than Yandle which makes it kind of difficult to execute.
If I'm not mistaken I think the structure of the decrease in that contract is not legal. There has to be a certain percentage per year vs the length of the deal, and that length is too short to decrease it that rapidly.
If I'm not mistaken I think the structure of the decrease in that contract is not legal. There has to be a certain percentage per year vs the length of the deal, and that length is too short to decrease it that rapidly.
Wetcoaster feel free to correct me...
Nope, the only rule is 50% of the first year. So you can go from 11 to 6 but not to 5, but then from there you can decrease by 50% of the first year futher, so from 6m to 0.5m. Unless they added something recently.
Is Laich even an upgrade on Jannik Hansen? On the surface, it appears so, but when you consider Laich is really only a 30-35 point player at even strength and the steady progression of Hansen I'm not so sure that would be the case over the next 2-3 years.
Not to mention Chris Higgins brings even strength scoring equal to or better than Laich, and like Hansen will come in much much cheaper.
Laich has never produced like a top 6 talent 5 on 5. And that has to be a red flag coming from an organization that has had a lot skill and offense throughout the lineup.
I have little to interst in seeing the Canucks outbid other teams for a guy that won't get much opportunity on the PP and a very pedestrian scorer 5 on 5. There's just no value there unless he takes another step in his development - probably a risky proposition for a 28 year old...
I agree and truly think this might be the year we part with Schneids and Hodgson to acquire the scoring winger. from where? Who? Not sure, but Phoenix and Doan might be a distinct possibility for a team almost destined to move to Quebec after this season.
With Bryzgalov leaving, and having Turris, a Hogdson Schneids combo would be extremely appealing.
Interesting discussion in the Trade forum regarding Keith Yandle and a possible offer sheet. The idea is to front-load it so much that there's no possible way Phoenix could afford it. One of the proposed options was 11-8-5-2-1 for a $5.4m cap hit. Canucks would need to acquire their 3rd to pull it off, I believe, but it's actually quite reasonable and there's no chance of Phoenix matching it (11m and 8m in the first two years would kill them), assuming that Yandle accepts
Which is likely the big problem here. He's not going to take our offer knowing that Phoenix can offer him the same term and money, even without the frontloading. I haven't heard any rumblings that Yandle wants to leave Phoenix, so I'm assuming that staying in Phoenix would be his first choice.
Nope, the only rule is 50% of the first year. So you can go from 11 to 6 but not to 5, but then from there you can decrease by 50% of the first year futher, so from 6m to 0.5m. Unless they added something recently.
OK you could be right... Hey I am happy to be wrong. I think the Canucks need to go the trade route.
One of the problems facing the francise in a win now mode, is they are not allowing their prospects to develop and mature. I mean they will need Cody to be a top 6 player, but when can he be? When can he get the playing time?
Vancouver is in a very precarious situation to continue being a top contender every year.
Is Laich even an upgrade on Jannik Hansen? On the surface, it appears so, but when you consider Laich is really only a 30-35 point player at even strength and the steady progression of Hansen I'm not so sure that would be the case over the next 2-3 years.
Not to mention Chris Higgins brings even strength scoring equal to or better than Laich, and like Hansen will come in much much cheaper.
Laich has never produced like a top 6 talent 5 on 5. And that has to be a red flag coming from an organization that has had a lot skill and offense throughout the lineup.
I have little to interst in seeing the Canucks outbid other teams for a guy that won't get much opportunity on the PP and a very pedestrian scorer 5 on 5. There's just no value there unless he takes another step in his development - probably a risky proposition for a 28 year old...
Higgins at ~$2mm per is a LOT more appealing than Laich at $4mm.
I also love the idea of bringing in Tanguay, his hands are still very high end...and why wouldn't they be, he's only 31. Maybe $10mm over three years gets it done.
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but Tanguay led the NHL in shootout goals (10) last season.
All of those guys are/were on offensive levels that Ehrhoff can only dream of and only Visnovsky and Souray could be considered subpar defenders. Those two are getting paid 5.6 and 5.4 million, respectively. Marek Zidlicky or Mark Streit, whom I think are more similar players to Ehrhoff than any of the ones you named, are making 4 and 4.1, respectively. I don't think it's a stretch to say that 4.5 is a fair number for Ehrhoff. Do I think he'll get more? Maybe, maybe not, but imo, 4.5 for a player of Ehrhoff's skills sounds about right to me.
Defenders signed during last year's FA would be a more accurate prediction of UFA values, and with the salary cap increase, it's likely that money is going to be thrown around rhapsodically.
4.5m sounds right for Ehrhoff, but I don't believe for a second that's what it will take to sign him. He is one of the best defenseman in this year's free agency, and there are plenty of teams willing to spend.
A different name that could be out there is Wisniewski. Underrated 50pt season, unproven, defensively unreliable, but could come cheap. But I think the Wings are interested in him too; RH option to replace Rafalski.
Is Laich even an upgrade on Jannik Hansen? On the surface, it appears so, but when you consider Laich is really only a 30-35 point player at even strength and the steady progression of Hansen I'm not so sure that would be the case over the next 2-3 years.
Not to mention Chris Higgins brings even strength scoring equal to or better than Laich, and like Hansen will come in much much cheaper.
Laich has never produced like a top 6 talent 5 on 5. And that has to be a red flag coming from an organization that has had a lot skill and offense throughout the lineup.
I have little to interst in seeing the Canucks outbid other teams for a guy that won't get much opportunity on the PP and a very pedestrian scorer 5 on 5. There's just no value there unless he takes another step in his development - probably a risky proposition for a 28 year old...
The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to agree with you.
Part of Gillis' master plan was to augment the Sedins offensively with the rise of talent through the draft. The rise of Kesler (and the devolopment of the Sedins into Art Ross winners) helped offset the fact that the Cavalry never came. Hodgson, Shirikov, Grabner and Raymond were supposed to be mainstays on the roster adding the offensive punch that was sorely lacking in the finals. Sadly, Gillis traded away Grabner, Raymond has struggled to be consistant, and Hodgson has been setback with injuries.
So until Hodgson (or others like Rodin) can step into the roster to deliver that secondary offense alongside Kesler, it seems that the way to do it is to augment through free agency.
Tanguay would be a good addition in that regard, and to a lesser extent Connoly.
With Raymond on LTIR, the Canucks have the cap space to make a move.
Which is likely the big problem here. He's not going to take our offer knowing that Phoenix can offer him the same term and money, even without the frontloading. I haven't heard any rumblings that Yandle wants to leave Phoenix, so I'm assuming that staying in Phoenix would be his first choice.
That assumes a lot of loyalty on behalf of the player. Also, the fron-tloading is always done for the player, not the club (retirement contracts being the exception) as they get to spend the money or invest it ahead of time and possibly make a few hundred thousand or even million more.
I'm not saying this is realistic, but it's an interesting situation if that happened because then Phoenix has to think about itself as a business rather than as a hockey club and make a business decisions. Very difficult position to put them in.
- Markov if not playing with Montreal, will be playing elsewhere in the East.
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Agreed!
I think the Canucks want $4.5M per, while CE's agent is wanting $5M per, but hoffer has said you have to sway the Canucks way a bit, so I'm thinking something like a 6 year - $29M contract ($4.833M per)
But agreed with some others, I'd be fine with $5M-$5.25M for him, as he's just that important to our short and long term success.
Considering what MG has said he wants from his defensive corps, and what Ehrhoff has managed to do since his arrival in Vancouver, helping to make us a high octane fast offensive team, I think MG gets this done before July 1st. CE has also been one of our more healthier dmen since his arrival (knock on wood).
Plus if WE want to be the next Detroit, constant contenders, re-signing someone as important as Ehrhoff makes perfect sense in Gillis's master plan for the Canucks.
I'd rather have Dupuis than Upshall who has had a injury plagued career, and Dupuis has some cup winning experience.
Agreed, after he deals with the draft, re-signing both Hoffer & Juice, acquiring a 2nd line goal scoring winger will be his main goal imo.
My thoughts exactly, he'd fit in well here!
As for Higgins, I only wouldn't mind him if he came cheap and he'd be ok playing on the 3rd line, to help Manny and Hodgson, so they have a decent offensive guy to play with.
I think we need Richards offense, put Kesler on the wing and we have a competent second line, unlike every year where Kesler have to be the anchor of the second line. then we will have an excellent scoring line in Burrows Richards Kesler and one decent scoring line in the Sedins and Samuelsson.
Boy that'd be wonderful.
