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06-22-2011, 02:50 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
I wasn't making a top-13 list.

Interesting though, you are in accordance with my feeling on Richards which is that he isn't in the, we'll say, "elite" category. If he is playing "very good" hockey right now, what will he playing in five years? What do we offer him? I think Philly is playing a very dangerous game with a high cap hit like that for such a term, and it's clear that the rumored deal is not what we will be seeing.

I have no issue surrendering a higher cap hit in order to reduce long-term risk. I don't see a problem with a $7-8 million dollar cap hit if we can reduce term to 5-6 years.
Haha well I meant you can add those guys into that group you had ahead of Richards comfortably, further showing that he's outside the top 10.

I completely agree with you on this one. I would much rather see a 5 year 50 million dollar deal then an 8 year 65 million dollar deal. While both are overpayments the one that hampers the cap for the shortest amount of time is a better option.

I don't think Brad Richards is "elite" by any means, but he is almost a lock to be an all-star year in and year out. That makes him a star. And I would say that he would be the #1 C on 50% of NHL teams, which is enough to consider him a #1 C on a playoff team. The way UFA goes these days, you're overpaying no matter who you go after. You just have to overpay the "least" if you know what I mean.

I think Philly put themselves in handcuffs when they traded for Bryzgalov's rights. Holmgren is facing a ton of pressure to get him locked up because of it. Bryz and his agent have the Flyers right where they want them. I don't doubt that Bryzgalov could get a 6.5-7 million dollar cap hit on the open market. A team who is desperate for a goalie Philly/Tampa/Washington/Colorado would force the price up for him in a bidding war. Richards will likely go the same way. When push comes to shove it'll be interesting to see if Burke succumbs to the pressure to pull a number 1 C and blows his brains out on a Richards contract. Or keeps his head and waits for a better opportunity.

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06-22-2011, 02:58 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
yet, Toews has not even had 1 'excellent' season.
Toews = 2-way player, PP, PK

BR = 1-way player, PP



I always wonder what hockey fans think of this scenario:

1-dimension soft player scores 70 points

2-way player, PK'er, hitter, checker, scores 60 points

Which player do you take, ceteris paribus?

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06-22-2011, 03:03 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
Toews = 2-way player, PP, PK

BR = 1-way player, PP



I always wonder what hockey fans think of this scenario:

1-dimension soft player scores 70 points

2-way player, PK'er, hitter, checker, scores 60 points

Which player do you take, ceteris paribus?
I think you're underestimating BR defensive ability.

He's not a 2 way Pk'er like Toews, MRichards, Getzlaf, Staal etc. But he's certainly good enough to hold his own defensively. He's far from a liability.

He's had up and down years, some years being well into the plus side, and others well into the minus side. In Dallas the past few years, they havent been a playoff team, the worst he's been was a -12. Thats not all that bad considering he always lead his team in Mins.

He also was a Conn Smythe winner, he shows up during big games, even though he hasn't played in very many since leaving Tbay.

We HAVE to face the reality that guys of the ilk you speak of (top 10, elite 2way players) are NEVER available on the open market. Toews, Staal, Getzlaf, Crosby won't ever be available, they are 1 team players at least until they hit they're late 30's. For now we will take what we can get. There are FAR worse players then Brad Richards that we could go after, even if you only look at first line centres.

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06-22-2011, 03:21 PM
  #104
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good goalie..... but thats a bad contract
better them than us

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06-22-2011, 03:25 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
Toews = 2-way player, PP, PK

BR = 1-way player, PP



I always wonder what hockey fans think of this scenario:

1-dimension soft player scores 70 points

2-way player, PK'er, hitter, checker, scores 60 points

Which player do you take, ceteris paribus?
I don't understand why these last few years people keep using this term: " scores 70 points". You do not score an assist, you can only score goals. He didn't score 70 points, unless he had 70 goals. There is a huge difference.

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06-22-2011, 03:27 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
I think you're underestimating BR defensive ability.

He's not a 2 way Pk'er like Toews, MRichards, Getzlaf, Staal etc. But he's certainly good enough to hold his own defensively. He's far from a liability.

He's had up and down years, some years being well into the plus side, and others well into the minus side. In Dallas the past few years, they havent been a playoff team, the worst he's been was a -12. Thats not all that bad considering he always lead his team in Mins.

He also was a Conn Smythe winner, he shows up during big games, even though he hasn't played in very many since leaving Tbay.

We HAVE to face the reality that guys of the ilk you speak of (top 10, elite 2way players) are NEVER available on the open market. Toews, Staal, Getzlaf, Crosby won't ever be available, they are 1 team players at least until they hit they're late 30's. For now we will take what we can get. There are FAR worse players then Brad Richards that we could go after, even if you only look at first line centres.
I think you actually have to watch Brad Richards play before you draw conclusions on his defensive acumen based solely on plus/minus.

For example, anyone who has watched the Dallas Stars know that Brad Richards played the majority of his time with James Neal and Loui Eriksson on his wing. Who was the worst defensively on that line?

You also did not answer the question. We should move this over to a BR thread tho...

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06-22-2011, 03:40 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
I think you actually have to watch Brad Richards play before you draw conclusions on his defensive acumen based solely on plus/minus.

For example, anyone who has watched the Dallas Stars know that Brad Richards played the majority of his time with James Neal and Loui Eriksson on his wing. Who was the worst defensively on that line?

You also did not answer the question.
I've seen him play a ton. From Tbay to Dallas.

He is FAR from a liability. He skates well, will play the body when necessary, and uses his stick well.

No he's not a guy you're gonna send out with your #1 Pk unit, he's not a shot blocker, or excellent on the defensive side down low. But like I said those guys are extremely rare. There are perhaps 10 of them in the league. Even 50 goal scoring Steven Stamkos doesn't PK. Because he isn't a good Pker does that mean you don't want him on your team? Of course Stamkos pots 50 a year so he doesnt compare to BRichards but still, not every #1 C can be an amazing two-way guy.

Like I said we have to take what we can get. Those Datsyuk, Staal, Getzlaf, Toews, Crosby type players arent readily available on the market. So when you dont have an internal incumbent you have to take what you can get. And like I said there are far worse #1 C's we could acquire then Brad Richards.

Answering your question theres too many unknown factors. Do you take a 60 point guy whose +10 over the 70 point guy whose +1? Probably not. Do you take the 65 point +25 guy over the 75 point -15 guy? Yeah you probably would.

It all really depends on what your team needs are, and how you can fit pieces together. Brad Richards worked well in Dallas alongside Louie and sometimes Neal because you can bolster a line with defensive prowess.

Putting Richards and Kessel beside a good defensive winger would be beneficial to both of them. Just like in Chicago, Toews lets you put Kane out on the ice so much even though he's only average defensively.

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06-22-2011, 03:45 PM
  #108
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it is a big cap hit and a risky move, but i think people are seriously underrating Bryzgalov here.

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06-22-2011, 03:49 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Baba Ganoush View Post
it is a big cap hit and a risky move, but i think people are seriously underrating Bryzgalov here.
I don't think anyone is underrating him.

He's a good goalie, a solid #1 guy no doubt about that.

He just has limited playoff experience, and for a team that is tight on cap space, and has no problem in the regular season, but needs a CLUTCH playoff tendy, its not ideal for Philly to be paying him Tim Thomas type money.

Look at Luongo now, while still a very good goaltender he has shown that hes a big playoff question mark. Its tough to eat that big salary if you're Van. If Bryzgalov isn't stellar in the playoffs what does Philly do?

I for one think that Philly is desperate and needs to pay Bryz a salary that he likely would get on the open market anyways. Its a tough pill to swallow but thats the nature of UFA these days. This is why we've drifted into a little B Richards talk, because its likely the leafs or whatever team tries to land him will be in a similar bordering on overpayment situation.

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06-22-2011, 03:50 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
I've seen him play a ton. From Tbay to Dallas.

He is FAR from a liability. He skates well, will play the body when necessary, and uses his stick well.

Answering your question theres too many unknown factors. Do you take a 60 point guy whose +10 over the 70 point guy whose +1? Probably not. Do you take the 65 point +25 guy over the 75 point -15 guy? Yeah you probably would.

It all really depends on what your team needs are, and how you can fit pieces together. Brad Richards worked well in Dallas alongside Louie and sometimes Neal because you can bolster a line with defensive prowess.

Putting Richards and Kessel beside a good defensive winger would be beneficial to both of them. Just like in Chicago, Toews lets you put Kane out on the ice so much even though he's only average defensively.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

See for yourself how frequently Brad 'takes the body', 'uses his stick', and gives the puck away.

You misinterpret the question. Plus minus is a function of all the players on the ice whereas a player's own game is just that; what he brings to the table.

So would you take a 60 point player who kills penalties, hits and checks with consistency, and has the skill to play on PP over a 70 point player who plays no two-way game, does not hit or check with consistency, and cannot play on the PK? Which is the better player?

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06-22-2011, 03:54 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

See for yourself how frequently Brad 'takes the body', 'uses his stick', and gives the puck away.

You misinterpret the question. Plus minus is a function of all the players on the ice whereas a player's own game is just that; what he brings to the table.

So would you take a 60 point player who kills penalties, hits and checks with consistency, and has the skill to play on PP over a 70 point player who plays no two-way game, does not hit or check with consistency, and cannot play on the PK? Which is the better player?
To answer the question, it would depend on who I already have on the roster and the type of style my team plays.

It isn't as simple as you present it.

For the Leafs, I would take the pure point-getter to be a dangerous offensive threat based on the fact that we have a couple 2-way 60pt guys already and play one of the most uptempo styles in the league.

I get your point and in general or starting from scratch, I would probably take the 2-way forward with a hypothetical 10 less points.

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06-22-2011, 03:54 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

See for yourself how frequently Brad 'takes the body', 'uses his stick', and gives the puck away.

You misinterpret the question. Plus minus is a function of all the players on the ice whereas a player's own game is just that; what he brings to the table.

So would you take a 60 point player who kills penalties, hits and checks with consistency, and has the skill to play on PP over a 70 point player who plays no two-way game, does not hit or check with consistency, and cannot play on the PK? Which is the better player?
Well thats why I'm saying it depends.

How much more dynamic is the scorer? And how good defensively is the other player? Is he above average or elite?

And on top of that what type of personnel do you have on the team? If you have 4 or 5 good bottom 6 pkers do you really need a top line C who can Pk or would you rather rest him to give him more ES and PP minutes?

While goal scoring isn't this way, I think assists and then to some degree points is similar to +/-. Is Brad Richards as good on the offensive end without Erikson or Neal? Same thing with Toews and Kane?

I think somewhere along the line it all evens out to be a team game. You have to have a good makeup of players who fit well together. You can afford to have more of a 1 dimensional sniper type if you have a great two way guy, and visa versa.

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06-22-2011, 04:14 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by agreement View Post
7 years 50 Million Doll Hairs


Please comment. Does this mean anything to the leafs?
7.14 million wonder how the contract breaks down? and what the cap hit is gonna be on the Flyers. I definitely think this signing means someone else is on their way out of Philly and maybe more. I do however think it's a good move for Philly finally realising they need a goalie to compete for the cup and I guess they figure that moving someone like Briere or Richards or Carter is acceptable considering the team they currently have.

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06-22-2011, 04:29 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by NikolaiTesla View Post
I don't understand why these last few years people keep using this term: " scores 70 points". You do not score an assist, you can only score goals. He didn't score 70 points, unless he had 70 goals. There is a huge difference.
A 'score' is just a means of tabulating something -- in this case NHL points. Nothing wrong with the saying at all. Your mind-set is just too narrow.

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06-22-2011, 04:57 PM
  #115
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Wow, that is a gross overpayment for someone with zero playoff success. But they were desperate for a number 1 and they showed it.
well .... he did win a cup in anahiem if i recall correctly (in which he played lights out and replaced giggy), and he played really well last year, i think too many people are focusing on how he played this postseason, sure he was a no show but so was EVERYONE else but doan so it was more of a team failure



regardless this is a massive overpayment, the goalie market has dried up no way goalies should be making more than 5M even if they are elite

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06-22-2011, 05:03 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

See for yourself how frequently Brad 'takes the body', 'uses his stick', and gives the puck away.

You misinterpret the question. Plus minus is a function of all the players on the ice whereas a player's own game is just that; what he brings to the table.

So would you take a 60 point player who kills penalties, hits and checks with consistency, and has the skill to play on PP over a 70 point player who plays no two-way game, does not hit or check with consistency, and cannot play on the PK? Which is the better player?

For one, I don't think I would classify Richards as a 70 point player considering he's scored at almost a 90 point pace for the past 2 seasons.

Also, you do realize last year's reigning MVP had less hits and takeaways than Richards did in 10 more games played right?

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06-22-2011, 05:19 PM
  #117
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Holy ****. The **** is wrong with Holmgren? Retard. (if this is all true, of course)

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06-22-2011, 06:20 PM
  #118
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A 'score' is just a means of tabulating something -- in this case NHL points. Nothing wrong with the saying at all. Your mind-set is just too narrow.

seems to be splitting (doll) hairs.


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06-22-2011, 06:38 PM
  #119
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For one, I don't think I would classify Richards as a 70 point player considering he's scored at almost a 90 point pace for the past 2 seasons.

Also, you do realize last year's reigning MVP had less hits and takeaways than Richards did in 10 more games played right?
Only in Toronto will fans be complaining about adding a UFA of Richard's Stature.

What I like is, he is a perfect fit for Kessel. I could see Kessel reaching 80+ points as Richard's wingman.

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06-22-2011, 06:52 PM
  #120
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Doing the math based on a $64million cap, add him at $7M per year and drop Versteeg at $3M for a draft pick and Philly's under the cap.

The only implication for the Leafs could be the availability of Ville Leino on the free agent market.
True....if they want to run with 9 forwards and 6 defensemen. How exactly do they sign 4 more forwards and 1 more defenseman with a total of $500,000 to spend?

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06-22-2011, 07:06 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho View Post
I think you actually have to watch Brad Richards play before you draw conclusions on his defensive acumen based solely on plus/minus.

For example, anyone who has watched the Dallas Stars know that Brad Richards played the majority of his time with James Neal and Loui Eriksson on his wing. Who was the worst defensively on that line?

You also did not answer the question. We should move this over to a BR thread tho...
Brad Richards is worth 7 million, Bryzgalov is not.

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06-22-2011, 09:46 PM
  #122
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Laughable contract. What is Philly thinking?

This is why Kaberle won't take as big a discount as many think because of his playoff performance.

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06-22-2011, 11:12 PM
  #123
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Jumping from Bobs who had a decent season to Bryz is a decent jump. I don't think any goalie is worth $7 000 000. There is also guys like Vokoun available.

Jumping from Bozak to Richards is night and day. And there is nobody like Richards available.

I thought supply and demand was a basic economic theory.

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06-22-2011, 11:19 PM
  #124
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Jumping from Bobs who had a decent season to Bryz is a decent jump. I don't think any goalie is worth $7 000 000. There is also guys like Vokoun available.

Jumping from Bozak to Richards is night and day. And there is nobody like Richards available.

I thought supply and demand was a basic economic theory.
Bob also played behind a sopposed "great" defence and good team, so his numbers don't really reflect what his real upside is.

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06-22-2011, 11:21 PM
  #125
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well .... he did win a cup in anahiem if i recall correctly (in which he played lights out and replaced giggy), and he played really well last year, i think too many people are focusing on how he played this postseason, sure he was a no show but so was EVERYONE else but doan so it was more of a team failure



regardless this is a massive overpayment, the goalie market has dried up no way goalies should be making more than 5M even if they are elite
Oh wow, I completely forgot about his playoff appearances while with the Ducks. Just looking at the numbers he had in 16 playoff games for Anaheim, and they look actually really good.

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