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Carter/Richards traded (Pt. 2); Quotes: Pronger (#100); Snider (#135); Carter (#954)

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Old
06-24-2011, 10:39 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Welcome to the Flyers' board on HF...

Where it's expected that you have a COMPLETE elite roster, from 2 full scoring lines, a shutdown line and grind line, 6 solid defenseman, a HOF goalie, a prospect pool as large as Oprah's ass and $20M worth of cap space each year.



Riiiight.
I just wanted to requote this Opy because this is what 100% of wha HF boards thinks like. Shame its impossible.

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06-24-2011, 10:47 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I like the belief that "it's business" as a justification for classless behavior. As if all business decisions are classy by definition.

You CAN make classless business decisions, ya know? Like signing a below market, decade-long contract with someone and then trading them before the deal goes into effect. Definition of classlessness.
Don't judge a move when you have no effin idea what may have precipitated it. You aren't operating with full information. You ever think that perhaps Richards or Carter may have done something "classless" to warrant the move?

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06-24-2011, 10:48 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Who on this team plays Bergeron's role?

We have a slew of players that will have to improve considerably and fill roles they haven't done before. Best case scenario, this all works out and the team will still go through growing pains. When is the last time a team gutted itself and had strong chemistry the following year?

These are not bad hockey deals, but they are bad if you wanted to see a Cup in the short term... Which is what this teams D was built to do.

Also, Bryz is not Tim Thomas.
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The same front office that saddled the team with the goalie tandem that failed them.

The front office has consistently mishandled team construction.
Overreaction at it's finest. Bookmark this page, the Flyers will be ok.

Perennial playoff team is consistently mishandled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Welcome to the Flyers' board on HF...

Where it's expected that you have a COMPLETE elite roster, from 2 full scoring lines, a shutdown line and grind line, 6 solid defenseman, a HOF goalie, a prospect pool as large as Oprah's ass and $20M worth of cap space each year.


Riiiight.
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I just wanted to requote this Opy because this is what 100% of wha HF boards thinks like. Shame its impossible.
This

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Anybody who thinks Voracek and Schenn will step in to replace Richards and Carter, and that this team can be considered a contender is completely out of their mind. Just thoroughly delusional.
Richards had 66 points last season. Voracek had 46 in COLUMBUS.

Carter had 66 points last year. Schenn and Simmonds will help replace these totals. Briere and Giroux carry the offense, we re-sign Leino or bring in someone else. Leino would have been let go otherwise.

JVR's emergence helps replace points.

I wouldnt at all be surprised if the Flyers score just as many goals this upcoming season as they did last season. JVR, Giroux, Simmonds, Versteeg and Voracek are all entering their primes NOW. Schenn is going to be a stud.

Vcash bets anyone?

This young squad has 82 games to gel. Playoffs are all that matter. it should be hard to replace Carter's playoff numbers. Richards 30 points in 34 playoff games will be a little tougher.

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Old
06-24-2011, 10:53 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Overreaction at it's finest. Bookmark this page, the Flyers will be ok.

Perennial playoff team is consistently mishandled?





This



Richards had 66 points last season. Voracek had 46 in COLUMBUS.

Carter had 66 points last year. Schenn and Simmonds will help replace these totals. Briere and Giroux carry the offense, we re-sign Leino or bring in someone else. Leino would have been let go otherwise.

JVR's emergence helps replace points.

I wouldnt at all be surprised if the Flyers score just as many goals this upcoming season as they did last season. JVR, Giroux, Simmonds, Versteeg and Voracek are all entering their primes NOW. Schenn is going to be a stud.

Vcash bets anyone?

This young squad has 82 games to gel. Playoffs are all that matter. it should be hard to replace Carter's playoff numbers. Richards 30 points in 34 playoff games will be a little tougher.
Right, let's be honest here. Richards had 66 points with a wrist that was injured and probably needed surgery BEFORE the season, while playing with crap wingers. We know he's capable of better.

Carter had 36 goals.

Neither one of those players can replace healthy Richards, or Carter's goals.

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06-24-2011, 10:55 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Welcome to the Flyers' board on HF...

Where it's expected that you have a COMPLETE elite roster, from 2 full scoring lines, a shutdown line and grind line, 6 solid defenseman, a HOF goalie, a prospect pool as large as Oprah's ass and $20M worth of cap space each year.


Riiiight.
Forwards:

Briere, Richards, Voracek, Hartnell, Giroux, JVR, Versteeg, Nodl, Betts, Powe, Wellwood, Read, FA F @ $3 mil --~$33.77 million

Timonen, Pronger, Meszaros, Carle, Coburn, Bartulis, FA Dman @1.3 -- ~$23.8 million

Bob and Bryz -- $7.41 million

Total = $65 million

That's a 22 man roster with giving rough estimates to Voracek, our RFAs, and the two free agents. Also would have that first from the Carter deal. There wasn't a whole lot that had to be done to put this roster together.

Losing Richards is a huge deal from a defensive standpoint...and from what we've seen the last six playoffs, defensive hockey all down your roster really counts.

While we're on the topic of assets/prospect, let's look at the returns for Carter and Richards vs. what we gave up for Pronger:

Schenn+Simmonds+Voracek+1st+2nd+3rd (2 players @ 26)

Lupul+Sbisa+1st+1st (1 player @ 34 years old)

Something doesn't add up.

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06-24-2011, 10:56 AM
  #56
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Well that's just it. Even at their ceilings, we don't have a line I want on the ice against a Crosby.
We didn't before but I know what you're saying. We lack a defensive center and have like 1 two-way forward.

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06-24-2011, 10:57 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Right, let's be honest here. Richards had 66 points with a wrist that was injured and probably needed surgery BEFORE the season, while playing with crap wingers. We know he's capable of better.

Carter had 36 goals.

Neither one of those players can replace healthy Richards, or Carter's goals.
Not this upcoming season, no.

But this TEAM can. The emergence of JVR and Voracek can. Even a decent season from Schenn will go a long way.

This trade pushes Nodl and Wellwood out of the top 9 like would have been required just to sign Bryz and stay under the cap. We can keep Versteeg, Carle and Leino now.

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06-24-2011, 10:58 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Overreaction at it's finest. Bookmark this page, the Flyers will be ok.

Perennial playoff team is consistently mishandled?
Ah, yeah... do you remember the teams of Timonen and a **** D-corps? We transitioned from that to a team stacked at forward and D with massive question marks between the pipes... which cost us a Cup potentially.

Now we have a team that is completely dysfunctional in career arc. The strength of the D is at the end of its career, and the forwards as a group are probably not ready to actually compete for a Cup next year.

That's poor team construction. We had a team that WAS the perfect mix of youth and veteran savvy, now we have a team where veteran savvy is going to have to do a metric ton of heavy lifting.

Quote:
Richards had 66 points last season. Voracek had 46 in COLUMBUS.

Carter had 66 points last year. Schenn and Simmonds will help replace these totals. Briere and Giroux carry the offense, we re-sign Leino or bring in someone else. Leino would have been let go otherwise.

JVR's emergence helps replace points.

I wouldnt at all be surprised if the Flyers score just as many goals this upcoming season as they did last season. JVR, Giroux, Simmonds, Versteeg and Voracek are all entering their primes NOW. Schenn is going to be a stud.

Vcash bets anyone?

This young squad has 82 games to gel. Playoffs are all that matter. it should be hard to replace Carter's playoff numbers. Richards 30 points in 34 playoff games will be a little tougher.
Schenn and Simmonds will not replace the defense. Losing Richards is a major negative impact to this team's two-way play and PK. He will win a Selke. Losing Carter is a major negative impact to this team at even strength, as he was EASILY the best even strength forward on this team the last few years... and was a big reason Giroux was defensively acceptable last year.

They're going to get some goal next year, but they're also going to spend a lot of time in their own zone.

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06-24-2011, 11:00 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Not this upcoming season, no.

But this TEAM can. The emergence of JVR and Voracek can. Even a decent season from Schenn will go a long way.

This trade pushes Nodl and Wellwood out of the top 9 like would have been required just to sign Bryz and stay under the cap. We can keep Versteeg, Carle and Leino now.
And what if JVR isn't ready to be a consistent performer... what has he shown you to this point that he's capable of that?

And I'm oh-so thrilled to keep Versteeg, Carle, and Leino at the expense of Richards and Carter. I love D that can't play D, and guys that do spin-o-rama's whenever the judges are watching to throw up scores for artistic interpretation.

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06-24-2011, 11:01 AM
  #60
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We didn't before but I know what you're saying. We lack a defensive center and have like 1 two-way forward.
I had no problem with one of Carter/Richards out against him. Crosby was going to get his, but those two were capable of playing with him. Briere simply cannot be out there against guys like that with any consistency. Giroux can because of his compete level, but that's not a winning formula, IMO.

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06-24-2011, 11:02 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Forwards:

Briere, Richards, Voracek, Hartnell, Giroux, JVR, Versteeg, Nodl, Betts, Powe, Wellwood, Read, FA F @ $3 mil --~$33.77 million

Timonen, Pronger, Meszaros, Carle, Coburn, Bartulis, FA Dman @1.3 -- ~$23.8 million

Bob and Bryz -- $7.41 million

Total = $65 million

That's a 22 man roster with giving rough estimates to Voracek, our RFAs, and the two free agents. Also would have that first from the Carter deal. There wasn't a whole lot that had to be done to put this roster together.

Losing Richards is a huge deal from a defensive standpoint...and from what we've seen the last six playoffs, defensive hockey all down your roster really counts.

While we're on the topic of assets/prospect, let's look at the returns for Carter and Richards vs. what we gave up for Pronger:

Schenn+Simmonds+Voracek+1st+2nd+3rd (2 players @ 26)

Lupul+Sbisa+1st+1st (1 player @ 34 years old)

Something doesn't add up.
I see and acknowledge what you're saying -- but there is no 'perfect' full round team.

Welcome to the Cap era where you can't stockpile draft picks and simply whoever you want like pre-CBA era.

I'm not a Holmgren apologist, he's had his blunders...but we've had and still do have a competitive team (IMO).

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06-24-2011, 11:04 AM
  #62
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Don't judge a move when you have no effin idea what may have precipitated it. You aren't operating with full information. You ever think that perhaps Richards or Carter may have done something "classless" to warrant the move?
The Flyers, in November 2010, put an 11-year contract in front of Carter. At the time, Carter apparently specifically discussed the possibility of being traded prior to the NTC kicking in and had a pseudo hand-shake agreement with Holmgren that it wouldn't happen.

Before that deal even began. A deal in which Carter did the following.

1) Signed for below market cap hit.
2) Took less money than he could have gotten (Holmgren admitted this yesterday)
3) Signed away the entirety of his prime and all contract flexibility he would have in his career.

He was then dealt to Columbus. Carter could have remained unsigned, and either gone to arbitration (Parise) where he would have earned bank, or been dealt without a contract (like all the guys we just picked up). Then he would have had some control over his life going forward.

Trading him was completely without class given the fact that they had just signed him to that 11 year deal.

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06-24-2011, 11:07 AM
  #63
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And what if JVR isn't ready to be a consistent performer... what has he shown you to this point that he's capable of that?

And I'm oh-so thrilled to keep Versteeg, Carle, and Leino at the expense of Richards and Carter. I love D that can't play D, and guys that do spin-o-rama's whenever the judges are watching to throw up scores for artistic interpretation.
I agree Jester that this is not how I would have done it, but what can you do?

For two 26 year old roughly 70 point centers we got a bunch of guys between 19-23 who are just entering their prime. Their prime isn't 2-5 years away. Carter and Richards emergence was 3 years ago in 08-09. That puts each of them at 23, the same age as Simmonds and Voracek.

This years regular season will be interesting, but I think the Flyers will be just as effective offensively.

The 2011-2012 Flyers as currently built are freaking deep and loaded with potential. They will certainly be contenders.

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06-24-2011, 11:07 AM
  #64
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We will still be a playoff team next year, but this is poor management. I mean we literally bring in the missing piece to our cup hopes and then trade our best forwards for players who may take the next step this year, but have just a good a chance of not progressing at the rate we need.

It doesn't make sense to make these moves. They conflict each other, and conflict with the organization's philosophy. We're in limbo right now stuck between contender, and team on the verge of contending. I think there are other moves that are going to be made.

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06-24-2011, 11:11 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I agree Jester that this is not how I would have done it, but what can you do?

For two 26 year old roughly 70 point centers we got a bunch of guys between 19-23 who are just entering their prime. Their prime isn't 2-5 years away. Carter and Richards emergence was 3 years ago in 08-09. That puts each of them at 23, the same age as Simmonds and Voracek.

This years regular season will be interesting, but I think the Flyers will be just as effective offensively.

The 2011-2012 Flyers as currently built are freaking deep and loaded with potential. They will certainly be contenders.
That's just it about emerging... 2-3 years ago they were breaking out offensively, but they weren't ready to actually compete for a Cup. More to it than offense. Carter, for example, is a much better player now than he was then...

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06-24-2011, 11:16 AM
  #66
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Well I guess I'm gonna have to change my username...****

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06-24-2011, 11:16 AM
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Man, I woke up at 2 am feeling distressed about all of this. I still felt like the fact that Richards was gone couldn't be reality.

I think I was actually in shock over it to an extent.
He's a professional hockey player, not your dog that just died.

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06-24-2011, 11:17 AM
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Well I guess I'm gonna have to change my username...****
Well you can keep the "Van." For now.

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06-24-2011, 11:17 AM
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Well I guess I'm gonna have to change my username...****
Wayne VanSchenn?

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06-24-2011, 11:19 AM
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Wayne VanSchenn?
Brayden Van<insert name of 8th overall pick here> could work too.

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06-24-2011, 11:20 AM
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The Flyers, in November 2010, put an 11-year contract in front of Carter. At the time, Carter apparently specifically discussed the possibility of being traded prior to the NTC kicking in and had a pseudo hand-shake agreement with Holmgren that it wouldn't happen.
Just as you like to do i shall do now - Source for that?

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06-24-2011, 11:22 AM
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This trade pushes Nodl and Wellwood out of the top 9 like would have been required just to sign Bryz and stay under the cap. We can keep Versteeg, Carle and Leino now.
Nodl on a 3rd line checking line, isn't a bad thing, and I don't give a **** that we got to keep those three. Carle blows defensively, Versteeg is an overpaid 3rd liner, and Leino is probably going to get a fat contract he doesn't deserve. While these moves may be great in the future, next year the Flyers won't be as good as they could have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The Flyers, in November 2010, put an 11-year contract in front of Carter. At the time, Carter apparently specifically discussed the possibility of being traded prior to the NTC kicking in and had a pseudo hand-shake agreement with Holmgren that it wouldn't happen.

Before that deal even began. A deal in which Carter did the following.

1) Signed for below market cap hit.
2) Took less money than he could have gotten (Holmgren admitted this yesterday)
3) Signed away the entirety of his prime and all contract flexibility he would have in his career.

He was then dealt to Columbus. Carter could have remained unsigned, and either gone to arbitration (Parise) where he would have earned bank, or been dealt without a contract (like all the guys we just picked up). Then he would have had some control over his life going forward.

Trading him was completely without class given the fact that they had just signed him to that 11 year deal.
Ed Snider has a history of treating players and coaches awfully and these trades probably will affect are ability to sign other players in the future. If I'm Giroux, no way in hell am I taking a long term home town discount to play for this team

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06-24-2011, 11:22 AM
  #73
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And what if JVR isn't ready to be a consistent performer... what has he shown you to this point that he's capable of that?

And I'm oh-so thrilled to keep Versteeg, Carle, and Leino at the expense of Richards and Carter. I love D that can't play D, and guys that do spin-o-rama's whenever the judges are watching to throw up scores for artistic interpretation.
What if Richards wrist got worse and Carter's foot never fully healed and slowed down his stride?

They Flyers will survive. The regular season won't be amazing, but this team will be fun to watch with some growing pains.

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06-24-2011, 11:22 AM
  #74
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I hope we can add a nice 6th defensemen and replace Carle with someone who actually plays defense. That way we wont have to worry about scoring, we'll win all our games 1-0...

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06-24-2011, 11:22 AM
  #75
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That's just it about emerging... 2-3 years ago they were breaking out offensively, but they weren't ready to actually compete for a Cup. More to it than offense. Carter, for example, is a much better player now than he was then...
Yeah, these moves seems like they set us back about 2-3 years. There are still more to be done in this off season though. We'll see at least one more d and f added before all is said and done I believe.

Then if we move up to the third and grab Landeskog we can all begin dreaming of what could have been with him and Richards on the same line.

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