HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Carter/Richards traded (Pt. 2); Quotes: Pronger (#100); Snider (#135); Carter (#954)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-24-2011, 12:15 PM
  #101
El Dandy*
...Menace To Society
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dry Island
Posts: 9,767
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You are ignoring the fundamental problem, though. Our D was built to win yesterday, and our forwards are built to win in a couple of years.

This team lacks a center as of now that can play a lick of D. Giroux tries, but he isn't great at it. Briere is atrocious. Schenn will be a rookie.
Giroux is solid. Yeah we traded away our Selke caliber center in Richards and almost equally important guy in Carter, but we will press onward and do what we can do. I don't have the answer but I have this strange feeling it will work out. Yes he is the only solid defensive center we have, but that is who we have to work with now. Yeah we have been spoiled by having 2 great defensive centers, but they are not coming back, and that's the way she goes

I agree with Irish, the demise of the Philadelphia Flyers has been greatly exaggerated. We can be a 5 to a 7 seed depending on health.

Nobody should be expecting these new guys to fill the voids left by Mike and Jeff because those voids are huge. However we didn't get trash in return like some people are acting like. Voracek will match Richard's stat production this year (65-70 range). Yes he won't match eveyrthing else Richards did, so I digress. Schenn can do whatever he can do. If it is 30 points then it's 30 points. If he goes crazy and breaks 50 then cool. Simmonds will be what he is (fringe top 6 guy who could get 20 goals and does the dirty work). I put more pressure on Voracek personally. I think he can be 65-70 point guy next season if he's playing with JVR/Giroux. Not to mention we got our new goalie out of all of this too. We are so used to being such a front loaded team and not having a capable body in net, but now we have that and it will be interesting to see what we look like with a #1 instead of a glorified AHL guy in net. Yeah what good are Ilya, Danny, Chris, and Kimmo if this team is going young but I am not convinced we are done.. and even if we are done the natural progression of JVR and Giroux (mixed in with Mez, Coburn, Carle if we keep him, Leino, Hartnell, perhaps a UFA) will keeps us in the hunt. Keep us in the hunt as a prime contender for the Cup like we were? No because it downgrades our great chance at a Cup to a good chance at a Cup, but this is a playoff team next year and if you are in the playoffs you have a shot.

We are a weaker *team* on paper. I believe we will be a better *team* on the ice. It's like the Melrose philosophy of Will Beats Skill. Obvisously there was truth that Richards lost the room and had problems otherwise we would not have moved him on. I never acknowledge these rumors because Richie couldn't and still can't do any wrong in my book because I love the man. We have 3 former captains in the room and there is no shortage of leadership and guidance in the lockeroom. I am not convinced the REAL guts and REAL heart of this team has been ripped out. I think we as fans see it that way because we see how Richie tried to lead by example, but we don't know who was the real leader of the team. The only men that know that are the ones who lived it last year. I don't know what was said in the exit interviews and what not, but Snider picked Lavy and Pronger over Richards. It is now clear who's lockeroom it is and Pronger is the man for the job. It's also clear we just put all the eggs in the JVR/Giroux basket (will add Schenn to this group in a few)

It may be hard to fathom because we are all super pissed off and will be until the puck drops and we actually see what we are working with now. Could be medicore, could be pretty god damn good, but we'll find out.


Last edited by El Dandy*: 06-24-2011 at 12:23 PM.
El Dandy* is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:18 PM
  #102
El Emperor
Registered User
 
El Emperor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Woodstown, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerSithLord View Post
This time a year ago, we were all talking about how we were a goalie away from the stanley cup. We have one bad 2nd half of a season, struggle in the playoffs, a playoff in which our goaltender was terrible and now Richards/Carter needed to go?

I know that HF has a tendency to overreact, but what team trades their two top stars two seasons removed from almost winning the stanley cup. If they were such cancers, how come it didn't effect the team in the playoffs in 2010?

I freely admit I'm a bit biased since Richards was my favorite player, but it's amazing how some people will turn on a player once he is traded. I'll always be a flyers fan regardless of who is on the team, but it doesn't mean I have to think every move they make is a good one. In 3-4 years, these guys we acquired may be on the levels of Richards and Carter, but then what about the defense?
The situation was a bit different then... the Flyers weren't several points ahead in their division like they were this last season.

Something big happened in the Jan/Feb/Mar timeframe that changed a lot and attitude might have had much to do with it.

In 2010, they had to fight out of a corner to get to the finals. In 2011 they were so far ahead of the competition midway through the season that they let it get to their heads... we all know the outcome.

El Emperor is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:18 PM
  #103
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,901
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
At the time, Carter apparently specifically discussed the possibility of being traded prior to the NTC kicking in and had a pseudo hand-shake agreement with Holmgren that it wouldn't happen.
Apparently pseudo hand-shake, hunh?



This "classless" stuff is funny coming from someone who has railed in the past about Flyers making moves under the banner of "class" that wound up hurting the team... I seem to remember something about a defenseman that they assigned somewhere in some way that kept them on the hook for half his salary against the cap and how that was a horrible thing because it's supposed to be about "asset management" aka business aka show business not show friends...

How quickly opinions change when one's ox is gored.

JXC is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:20 PM
  #104
BenedictGomez
#FireDeboer
 
BenedictGomez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PRNJ
Country: United States
Posts: 26,873
vCash: 500
I dont understand this at all.

I mean, I get addressing/improving greatly in goal, but all the other stuff the Flyers did yesterday makes my head hurt. I genuinely feel that in total they did more harm than good.

BenedictGomez is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:22 PM
  #105
FlyLife
Nuthin but a G Thang
 
FlyLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Livin the High Life
Country: United States
Posts: 2,367
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Just......van.
This, because I feel pretty empty right now

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheflyers8 View Post
Van Wayne the 8th.
Though I really like this one

Honestly, I thought I was pretty safe with the username I picked 3 years ago

FlyLife is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:22 PM
  #106
FlyerSithLord
Registered User
 
FlyerSithLord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tinicum
Country: United States
Posts: 2,083
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyerSithLord
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Emperor View Post
Something big happened in the Jan/Feb/Mar timeframe that changed a lot and attitude might have had much to do with it.
Pronger broke his hand and missed the rest of the season.

FlyerSithLord is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:23 PM
  #107
Bob Clarke Fan Club
Registered User
 
Bob Clarke Fan Club's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,001
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerSithLord View Post
This time a year ago, we were all talking about how we were a goalie away from the stanley cup. We have one bad 2nd half of a season, struggle in the playoffs, a playoff in which our goaltender was terrible and now Richards/Carter needed to go?

I know that HF has a tendency to overreact, but what team trades their two top stars two seasons removed from almost winning the stanley cup. If they were such cancers, how come it didn't effect the team in the playoffs in 2010?

I freely admit I'm a bit biased since Richards was my favorite player, but it's amazing how some people will turn on a player once he is traded. I'll always be a flyers fan regardless of who is on the team, but it doesn't mean I have to think every move they make is a good one. In 3-4 years, these guys we acquired may be on the levels of Richards and Carter, but then what about the defense?



Or how they'll overrate them when they're in your stable.

Bob Clarke Fan Club is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:26 PM
  #108
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Cannon View Post
Hey look, my username came true...
What is the next prediction?

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:28 PM
  #109
rixXx
Registered User
 
rixXx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 226
vCash: 500
Somebody posted it on the main forum, but did anyone else check out that guy on dobberhockey. He called both of the trades (to Columbus and LA) a few days before they happened and said that the Flyers were looking to ship both of them immediately after the Boston series finished. Definitely strange that some guy on a forum knew about this before Richards and Carter did...

rixXx is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:29 PM
  #110
El Emperor
Registered User
 
El Emperor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Woodstown, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerSithLord View Post
Pronger broke his hand and missed the rest of the season.
One player should not have made a difference on this team. If Pronger's absense was the REAL culprit behind the collaspe, then maybe it was time to move on from Richards and Carter and start anew.

This isn't the NBA. One player going down like that should not completely dismantle an epic 1st half of the season. I can understand they would have some issues without Pronger, but you cannot convince me that the absense of Pronger led to that pathetic February and March.

El Emperor is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:34 PM
  #111
orange is better
than other colors...
 
orange is better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,165
vCash: 500
at the very least, we may now have a player on our hands with a shot to win the calder this season :-)

orange is better is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:36 PM
  #112
FlyerSithLord
Registered User
 
FlyerSithLord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tinicum
Country: United States
Posts: 2,083
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyerSithLord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Or how they'll overrate them when they're in your stable.
I agree with that statement, though I don't really think Richards and/or Carter were overrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Emperor View Post
One player should not have made a difference on this team. If Pronger's absense was the REAL culprit behind the collaspe, then maybe it was time to move on from Richards and Carter and start anew.

This isn't the NBA. One player going down like that should not completely dismantle an epic 1st half of the season. I can understand they would have some issues without Pronger, but you cannot convince me that the absense of Pronger led to that pathetic February and March.
So you'd rather think that Richards and/or Carter caused problems in the locker room or on the ice and that led to our demise instead of losing our top defenseman for the rest of the season and then dealing with the daily "will he/won't he play?". Plus, our rookie goaltender's, who was a stud for much of the first half of the season, play begins to average out. Add that to the fact that the HBL line stopped producing. You're right though, it's probably on Carter/Richards.

FlyerSithLord is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:39 PM
  #113
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
at the very least, we may now have a player on our hands with a shot to win the calder this season :-)
Since I was looking for a Stanley Cup this year, that isn't much consolation.

"Hey, I'm going to cut your balls off. But at least you won't have to buy condoms anymore!"

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:40 PM
  #114
healthyscratch
Registered User
 
healthyscratch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 5,456
vCash: 633
Quote:
I don’t think there was necessarily a rift, I think we just needed more life in the locker room. -Pronger
Tocch said last night that Richie and Carter were their own little clique, that they didn't associate much with the rest of the team. I don't have an issue with his personality per se, but as the captain you can't distance yourself from the other players. There has to be some sort of camaradarie with each other.

healthyscratch is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:46 PM
  #115
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
I dont understand this at all.

I mean, I get addressing/improving greatly in goal, but all the other stuff the Flyers did yesterday makes my head hurt. I genuinely feel that in total they did more harm than good.
Oh, they absolutely did. Aside from the roster, it's likely they did damage which will remain irreparable for many years to come...probably until Snider's dead. No player in their right mind should want to give a discount or cap friendly contract to this team, and no one should feel safe.

What happened yesterday may end up being a mind numbing pull resulting in an immeasurable unfurling of years and years spent building the organization's reputation as the class of the NHL.

Terence Peterman is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:51 PM
  #116
El Emperor
Registered User
 
El Emperor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Woodstown, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerSithLord View Post
I agree with that statement, though I don't really think Richards and/or Carter were overrated.



So you'd rather think that Richards and/or Carter caused problems in the locker room or on the ice and that led to our demise instead of losing our top defenseman for the rest of the season and then dealing with the daily "will he/won't he play?". Plus, our rookie goaltender's, who was a stud for much of the first half of the season, play begins to average out. Add that to the fact that the HBL line stopped producing. You're right though, it's probably on Carter/Richards.
It's not a matter of what I would rather think... it's a matter of how I am seeing it. And I never said that the blame is on Carter/Richards... I was saying that if you truely believe that Pronger's absense was the sole reason for the collapse that you have to at least consider the possibility that leaders like Richards and Carter (leaders on the team) maybe need to be let go.

Additionally, now you are adding more to your statement. Before, all you said was that Pronger went down to injury, so I made my comment.

On a side not, my personal opinion is that there were many factors leading to the collaspe and much of it was mental.

#1 - I believe the lack of above average goaltending caught up to them... no matter how hard they would play, the other team would get in these crappy goals that a good goalie would have saved. By the Boston series, this team was finished having to dig themselves out of 3 goal deficits going into the 1st intermission. Even all the shootout losses in March were just pathetic watching Boosh and Bob both get completely schooled even on days when we were able to get 1 or 2 shootout goals on the opposing goalie... long story short, no confidence in goaltending.

#2 - Most of the team had never been in this situation where they were miles ahead in the conference and division. Since the season that shall not be named, the Flyers have had to fight their way into the playoffs. This year, they had to hold their #1 spot that the whole hockey media prediected would be theirs at mid-season. They got cocky, and after sliding a bit in February, they never recovered.

Do I think trading Richards and Carter solved the problem? Not at all. The Flyers COULD have seen what happens this year and see if the team rebounds for the better only moving Hartnell and/or Carle to sign Bryz. The fact that they moved both Richards and Carter within an hour of each other is very curious, is it not?

El Emperor is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:53 PM
  #117
orange is better
than other colors...
 
orange is better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Since I was looking for a Stanley Cup this year, that isn't much consolation.

"Hey, I'm going to cut your balls off. But at least you won't have to buy condoms anymore!"
haha, touche beef

however, i did say "at the very least"

orange is better is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 12:55 PM
  #118
El Dandy*
...Menace To Society
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dry Island
Posts: 9,767
vCash: 500
that is true.

the worst part about this is not so much that we lost Mike and Jeff, but when it's time to lock up JVR and Giroux...why would they agree to a favorable to the team deal?

Getting guys UFA I am not concerned about because if we sign anyone of worth they will have their NTC/NMC from day 1. However good luck signing our own guys to deals.

El Dandy* is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 01:00 PM
  #119
El Emperor
Registered User
 
El Emperor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Woodstown, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipadelphia View Post
that is true.

the worst part about this is not so much that we lost Mike and Jeff, but when it's time to lock up JVR and Giroux...why would they agree to a favorable to the team deal?

Getting guys UFA I am not concerned about because if we sign anyone of worth they will have their NTC/NMC from day 1. However good luck signing our own guys to deals.
For this reason I am hoping that getting rid of them was because of locker room issues and making their social lives more important than the team.

Because if this is the case, internally, players like Giroux and JVR will know the exact reason these two were moved in this manner. They would know that Jeff and Mike were exceptions.

On top of this, it just teaches players around the league to hold off on signing monster year deals until they are of age for an NMC or NTC.

El Emperor is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 01:01 PM
  #120
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
Oh, they absolutely did. Aside from the roster, it's likely they did damage which will remain irreparable for many years to come...probably until Snider's dead. No player in their right mind should want to give a discount or cap friendly contract to this team, and no one should feel safe.

What happened yesterday may end up being a mind numbing pull resulting in an immeasurable unfurling of years and years spent building the organization's reputation as the class of the NHL.
I think a 40-year track record will have more pull than what happened in one day. Then again, it takes years to build a reputation and just one day to destroy it... or something like that.

Amateur Hour is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 01:04 PM
  #121
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
What activities? (I'm being serious).

This talk about drinking seems so overblown. We've all seen the pictures of Malkin. Guess what? Conn Smythe. How about the Blackhawks all last year? Oh right, Stanley Cup champs. It happens all throughout sports and it's been going on for decades, longer than any of us have been alive. Sounds more to me like an excuse for falling short. It's a lot easier--and sexier--to blame it on a bunch of 20some year-olds who like to drink instead of looking at the vacancy that is our goaltending (until now).

In his tenure here, Holmgren has never built an all-around Stanley Cup caliber team. He has put out some good teams, yes, and I am not absolving Richards/Carter/and co of all the blame at all. However, to me, this looks like them falling on the sword for a few people who are higher up. They were worn down last year, Richards especially. Did anyone actually expect this team to compete for the Cup with the ****show that was their goaltending situation and the deep run the year before?
And ths ****show that was the offseason when they moved out Gagne and got Zherdev, Shelley and Walker??

The one thing in relation to the partying/lockerroom issues that no one has seem to have been able to respond to yet, at least intellectually is this:

If Richards is such an issue in the lockerroom, or has all these off ice partying issues, etc. Why in the world, would 4 guys (Lombardi, Hextall, Stevens, Murray) who know him better than anyone in the NHL outside of the Flyers organization, move the #1 rated prospect outside of the NHL, a 2nd pick (when they dont have a 1st) and a good 2nd/3rd liner for him, and bring him to the party/celebrity capital of the country????

Something smells funny.....

mikedifr is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 01:06 PM
  #122
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian822 View Post
No one is blaming Richards for the Flyers not winning the Cup. That's ridiculous. I could care less if Richards went out and get **** faced ever night as long as it didn't effect his play. The 70's teams were notorious for boozing it up but they brought it every night. Do you think it's a coincidence that the "OCC" of Richards, Carter, Lupul and Upshall are no longer with this team? Holmgren addressed this issue in the media before Lupul was traded. The organization was clearly not happy having these two players as the face of the franchise and felt they could not lead them to a Cup.
Then why give them long-term deals to keep them here forever??? Carter's was just months ago basically

mikedifr is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 01:07 PM
  #123
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Tocch said last night that Richie and Carter were their own little clique, that they didn't associate much with the rest of the team. I don't have an issue with his personality per se, but as the captain you can't distance yourself from the other players. There has to be some sort of camaradarie with each other.
Which doesn't sound all that accurate since the complaint two years ago was that they were a bunch of friends and not being professional enough.

No doubt they didn't get along with Pronger, but if you read Meltzer's blog this spring, it doesn't sound like Pronger has too many close friends on this team.

Jester is offline  
Old
06-24-2011, 01:09 PM
  #124
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
And ths ****show that was the offseason when they moved out Gagne and got Zherdev, Shelley and Walker??

The one thing in relation to the partying/lockerroom issues that no one has seem to have been able to respond to yet, at least intellectually is this:

If Richards is such an issue in the lockerroom, or has all these off ice partying issues, etc. Why in the world, would 4 guys (Lombardi, Hextall, Stevens, Murray) who know him better than anyone in the NHL outside of the Flyers organization, move the #1 rated prospect outside of the NHL, a 2nd pick (when they dont have a 1st) and a good 2nd/3rd liner for him, and bring him to the party/celebrity capital of the country????

Something smells funny.....
Amazing how we can go from disagreeing on almost all points less than 24 hours ago, to agreeing on almost all points.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
06-24-2011, 01:11 PM
  #125
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Which doesn't sound all that accurate since the complaint two years ago was that they were a bunch of friends and not being professional enough.
Was that when they send lupul and upshall packing. Sounds like Carter and Richards didn't get the hint.

Spongolium* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.