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Old
06-24-2011, 01:33 PM
  #126
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, Philly's a question mark now.

This Conference is getting weaker by the day.
question mark yes, but do you really think they will be weaker?

my initial feeling (and of course the offseason isn't done yet), is that they are stronger today than they were to start last season.


Voracek- Giroux- JVR
Simmonds-Briere-Hartnell
Carcillo-Schenn-Versteeg
Powe- Betts- Shelley

Pronger-Timonen
Meszaros-Coburn
Carle- Bartulis

Bryzgalov

(not that these would be the lines, or that this is their final roster for 2011-2012...)

I don't know, I look at that as a fwd lineup that (with the continued devlop. of Giroux/JVR/Voracek/Simmonds) will be just as dangerous offensively, while adding a huge upgrade in nets.

worst part about it is that it gives them phenomenal long-term depth up front (not to mention what they do with the 8th overall and the 2nd/3rd)

like the bruins, the flyers are going to be good for a long time, and it pisses me off royally! thank go for the laffs futility!

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06-24-2011, 01:38 PM
  #127
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As of right now we are in the middle of the pack in this conference.

BOS/PIT/PHI/TB/WAS are still better right now and I expect all these teams to be active in free agency.

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06-24-2011, 01:46 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
As of right now we are in the middle of the pack in this conference.

BOS/PIT/PHI/TB/WAS are still better right now and I expect all these teams to be active in free agency.
With Richard/Carter gone, PHI are still better?

Let's say we managed to land Yagr AND Wiz (and Georges, ofc), I think we can expect some very interesting results next year

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06-24-2011, 01:56 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
BOS/PIT/PHI/TB/WAS are still better right now and I expect all these teams to be active in free agency.
Montreal is better than BOS, and better than PHI now that the Flyers blew themselves up. With Markov playing, they might just better than TB as well. And Montreal also has significant cap space to play with.

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06-24-2011, 02:04 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
question mark yes, but do you really think they will be weaker?

my initial feeling (and of course the offseason isn't done yet), is that they are stronger today than they were to start last season.


Voracek- Giroux- JVR
Simmonds-Briere-Hartnell
Carcillo-Schenn-Versteeg
Powe- Betts- Shelley

Pronger-Timonen
Meszaros-Coburn
Carle- Bartulis

Bryzgalov

(not that these would be the lines, or that this is their final roster for 2011-2012...)

I don't know, I look at that as a fwd lineup that (with the continued devlop. of Giroux/JVR/Voracek/Simmonds) will be just as dangerous offensively, while adding a huge upgrade in nets.

worst part about it is that it gives them phenomenal long-term depth up front (not to mention what they do with the 8th overall and the 2nd/3rd)

like the bruins, the flyers are going to be good for a long time, and it pisses me off royally! thank go for the laffs futility!
I completely disagree. Richards and Carter with Giroux were the guys that drove the bus on forward for them. Hartnell and Briere only had impressive production because they were playing soft minutes. Now they are back to being a second line. While Voracek is nice, he also doesn't fully replace Carter on the top line. And Schenn is a few years from really contributing. The upgrade is Bryzgalov, but I don't think that's going to be huge difference between what they got from Bobrovsky last year.

Compared to what they were last season, I think they are far weaker. They were at or near the top of the East now they'll be back in the pack of 5-9 teams.

And for the future when their youth does come into its own, they'll have problems with an aging back-end that needs replacement.

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06-24-2011, 02:09 PM
  #131
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To become a contender all we need to do is solidify the 3rd line and sign Wiz

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06-24-2011, 02:17 PM
  #132
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if Ak is on the top line and Hammer is resigned we are not a contender. not even close. If Gauthier doesent upgrade his size and skill, the habs will squeak into playoffs and be bounced. The status quo has to end

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06-24-2011, 02:32 PM
  #133
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Montreal is better than BOS, and better than PHI now that the Flyers blew themselves up. With Markov playing, they might just better than TB as well. And Montreal also has significant cap space to play with.
I stopped reading after you said we were better than the Stanley Cup Champions. Unreal.

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06-24-2011, 02:53 PM
  #134
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It's all about making the playoffs, then hope to get on a run.. and remaining as healthy as possible.

As much as some have rose-colored glasses when it comes to their beloved team, quite a few overrate the opposition.. or at least fail to appreciate what we have.

We have an all-star caliber goalie in Price.
We have 2 all-star caliber Dmen in Markov & Subban.
We have one of the best 2-way centers in Plekanec.
We have one of the best clutch scorers in Cammalleri.

That's a pretty damn good core to build on.

Guys like Pacioretty & Eller showed great promise in the 2nd half last season, we're getting back an excellent Dman in Gorges.. and adding some physicality & youth with Emelin.

The time for the team is not in 5 years... the window is there now.

They need to bring in size, I'd love Laich if he's available July 1... but the point is we have the core, we need to bring in the right pieces but there is no team that I can look at that I cannot see us having a chance to beat.

Next season is going to be a fun one.

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Old
06-24-2011, 02:55 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
I stopped reading after you said we were better than the Stanley Cup Champions. Unreal.
The champion team is not necessarily the best team. This has happened to Montreal before, and it happened to Boston now.

Is Boston really better than Pittsburgh, do you think? Washington? Detroit? San Jose? Chicago? Seriously?

Do you think Montreal last year was better than Pittsburgh or Washington? Seriously?

The Stanley Cup is the tournament of small sample sizes. Small enough that anyone who makes it could win it. We keep saying "anything can happen" when the playoffs start, yet act shocked at the end when it does.

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06-24-2011, 03:01 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The champion team is not necessarily the best team. This has happened to Montreal before, and it happened to Boston now.

Is Boston really better than Pittsburgh, do you think? Washington? Detroit? San Jose? Chicago? Seriously?

Do you think Montreal last year was better than Pittsburgh or Washington? Seriously?

The Stanley Cup is the tournament of small sample sizes. Small enough that anyone who makes it could win it. We keep saying "anything can happen" when the playoffs start, yet act shocked at the end when it does.
This is so unreal - it's hard to believe someone is making this argument.

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06-24-2011, 03:44 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
question mark yes, but do you really think they will be weaker?

my initial feeling (and of course the offseason isn't done yet), is that they are stronger today than they were to start last season.
JVR and Giroux would be there anyway though. They're adding Voracek and Brizgalov instead of Carter and Richards.

If we assume both Giroux and JVR make huge leaps this season they could be better but they're now a question mark. I certainly wouldn't say they're a sure thing to finish ahead of us now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Voracek- Giroux- JVR
Simmonds-Briere-Hartnell
Carcillo-Schenn-Versteeg
Powe- Betts- Shelley

Pronger-Timonen
Meszaros-Coburn
Carle- Bartulis

Bryzgalov

(not that these would be the lines, or that this is their final roster for 2011-2012...)

I don't know, I look at that as a fwd lineup that (with the continued devlop. of Giroux/JVR/Voracek/Simmonds) will be just as dangerous offensively, while adding a huge upgrade in nets.
Big upgrade in net for sure. Offensively, I'm not too sure about that this year.

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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
worst part about it is that it gives them phenomenal long-term depth up front (not to mention what they do with the 8th overall and the 2nd/3rd)
Long term they look scary. Schenn, Giroux, JVR and others... that's a great core to work with. But I don't understand the reasoning behind signing Brizgalov now though if you're going to rebuild. They should've gone after somebody like Rask instead.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
like the bruins, the flyers are going to be good for a long time, and it pisses me off royally! thank go for the laffs futility!
We should go out and trade vets to Burke for picks too. It's obviously the path to success...

On another note, look at how bad the East has become. There are question marks everywhere in this conference.

Pitts: What happens to Crosby & Malkin this year? They should still be good but...
Wash: Which OV shows up? Are they offensive or defensive?
Bos: Should be good to go but they could use Seguin to step up.
Philly: Hey, wha happen?
TB: Should be good but defense is an issue
NJ: Which team shows up?
MTL: Can they actually put it in the net? Is Markov actually going to be healthy?
NYR: Will probably land some other high priced FA in an effort to make the playoffs again.

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Old
06-24-2011, 03:49 PM
  #138
MathMan
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
This is so unreal - it's hard to believe someone is making this argument.
This seems so obvious, it's hard to believe someone is disputing it.

Do you honestly believe Boston is the best club in the league? Do you believe Carolina was the best club in the league in 2006, and Edmonton second-best?

Do you believe the best team always wins any given hockey game?

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Old
06-24-2011, 03:54 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
once again MM you reveal a serious lack of appreciation/understanding of what acutally happens in elite sports.

any team can of course have a 57% win% against another team in a random 7 game sample, satisfying the numbers game...

but the reality is that 7 games in September are NOT the same as 7 games in October, nor are 7 games in the first round the same as 7 games in the cup finals.

pressure impacts athletes in various different ways, most of which are extremely difficult to measure, and almost impossible to predict.

being the Champions is EXACTLY the same as being the "best team", so long as you describe "best" the way the MW dictionary describes it:

1: excelling all others <the best student>
2: most productive of good : offering or producing the greatest advantage, utility, or satisfaction <what is the best thing to do>

perhaps you have a different, personal, interpretation of what "the best" means?

there is a reason why the cup is not given to the team that wins the preseason, or the first team to win 4 games in the regular season, of the first team to win 4 games in the first round of the playoffs...

the cup goes to the team who wins 4 straight BEST of 7 series, thus rightfully claiming the tittle of "champions", excelling all others for that given year.

attempts to use various stats or figures to somehow undermine the team that claims that title amounts to nothing more than sour grapes.

I may not personally think the Boston Bruins deserve to be called the best team of the 2010-2011 season, but FACT remains that they were the most productive of the good teams in the league this season, and according to the litmus test established by the league they compete in (winning the cup), they EARNED the title as the "best" team.

but I know you can't be swayed by these types of arguments, so i simply ask you this...

if you won't use the same standard as the NHL to determine who is the "best" team in a given year, what standard or stat package do you think equates to being the best?

- goal differential?
- goals for?
- goals against?
- time of possession?
- shots for?
- shots against?

or is it some random combination of stats you, or someone else, has devised?
fantastic post right here...

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Old
06-24-2011, 04:08 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
question mark yes, but do you really think they will be weaker?

my initial feeling (and of course the offseason isn't done yet), is that they are stronger today than they were to start last season.


Voracek- Giroux- JVR
Simmonds-Briere-Hartnell
Carcillo-Schenn-Versteeg
Powe- Betts- Shelley

Pronger-Timonen
Meszaros-Coburn
Carle- Bartulis

Bryzgalov

(not that these would be the lines, or that this is their final roster for 2011-2012...)

I don't know, I look at that as a fwd lineup that (with the continued devlop. of Giroux/JVR/Voracek/Simmonds) will be just as dangerous offensively, while adding a huge upgrade in nets.

worst part about it is that it gives them phenomenal long-term depth up front (not to mention what they do with the 8th overall and the 2nd/3rd)

like the bruins, the flyers are going to be good for a long time, and it pisses me off royally! thank go for the laffs futility!
I think the Flyers will be big player in Brad Richards. When this is all said and done, I expect philly to be a much better team. If they aren't major players in Brad Richards I'll be completely shocked tbh, because these moves alone are quite baffling.

It appears there was a Locker room problem like Gainey recognized here that fateful summer. At least in my opinion. The reports of heavy partying can not be understated here. I think this will be a win for Philly now and in the long run.

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06-24-2011, 04:36 PM
  #141
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Do you honestly believe Boston is the best club in the league? Do you believe Carolina was the best club in the league in 2006, and Edmonton second-best?
Man.. let go for a while. Carolina won 52 games in 06 to go along with that Cup. They went on some real tears during the regular season, going 14-3-1 out of the gate and only losing one game in January. They knocked off two more 100+ point teams in the playoffs. They've got a damn strong claim to being that year's best team.

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06-24-2011, 04:37 PM
  #142
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This seems so obvious, it's hard to believe someone is disputing it.

Do you honestly believe Boston is the best club in the league?
The best club in the regular season is not necessarily the best club in the playoffs (and vice versa).

The Bruins clearly weren't (and aren't) the best regular season team, but they still are the best playoff team right now, and that is where it counts the most.


The playoffs really are a different beast than the regular season.

Goaltending becomes more important. Physical and mental toughness becomes more important. Player durability and stamina become more important (since lengthy series often turn into one-on-one wars of attrition). Team depth becomes more important (a great 1st line can often carry a team to an excellent regular season record, but Cup Winners are rarely made by just one great line).

In the regular season, pure talent is usually the most important factor, as long as its competently coached. But in the playoffs, great goaltending, along with team toughness, often trumps pure talent.

This is why the Sedins were totally shut down by Boston, why Joe Thornton tends to be significantly worse in the playoffs than in the regular season, why the Ovy-led Washington Capitals have never so much as made the Eastern Conference Finals, and why guys like Claude Lemieux shine come playoff time.


When people talk about "intangibles", they basically mean three things:

1. Hockey sense

2. Tenacity

3. Mental Toughness


These aren't always reflected by the stats, as smart, effective, and confident team play don't always have significant impact on individual stats.

Good 3rd/4th line grinders and defensive defensemen can absolutely suffocate another team, and grind them into the ground. This is much of what Boston did to Vancouver. But it won't always show up in clear statistical ways.


All my pro hockey-watching life, I've seen guys that are only average 2nd liners in the regular seasons but who consistently cause serious noise in the playoffs, and I've seen guys that are great 1st liners in the regular season but wilt come playoff time. Most players are equally good (or bad) in both, but not all are.

As currently constituted, the Bruins are designed to be an above average (but not fantastic) regular season team, but an absolute monster team come playoff team.

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06-24-2011, 04:49 PM
  #143
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The best club in the regular season is not necessarily the best club in the playoffs (and vice versa).

The Bruins clearly weren't (and aren't) the best regular season team, but they still are the best playoff team right now, and that is where it counts the most.


The playoffs really are a different beast than the regular season.

Goaltending becomes more important. Physical and mental toughness becomes more important. Player durability and stamina become more important (since lengthy series often turn into one-on-one wars of attrition). Team depth becomes more important (a great 1st line can often carry a team to an excellent regular season record, but Cup Winners are rarely made by just one great line).

In the regular season, pure talent is usually the most important factor, as long as its competently coached. But in the playoffs, great goaltending, along with team toughness, often trumps pure talent.

This is why the Sedins were totally shut down by Boston, why Joe Thornton tends to be significantly worse in the playoffs than in the regular season, why the Ovy-led Washington Capitals have never so much as made the Eastern Conference Finals, and why guys like Claude Lemieux shine come playoff time.


When people talk about "intangibles", they basically mean three things:

1. Hockey sense

2. Tenacity

3. Mental Toughness


These aren't always reflected by the stats, as smart, effective, and confident team play don't always have significant impact on individual stats.

Good 3rd/4th line grinders and defensive defensemen can absolutely suffocate another team, and grind them into the ground. This is much of what Boston did to Vancouver. But it won't always show up in clear statistical ways.


All my pro hockey-watching life, I've seen guys that are only average 2nd liners in the regular seasons but who consistently cause serious noise in the playoffs, and I've seen guys that are great 1st liners in the regular season but wilt come playoff time. Most players are equally good (or bad) in both, but not all are.

As currently constituted, the Bruins are designed to be an above average (but not fantastic) regular season team, but an absolute monster team come playoff team.
Which is why basically the same team lost a series after being up 3-0? I think you're rationalizing after the fact to explain their cup win rather than seriously attempting to analyse it.

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06-24-2011, 04:53 PM
  #144
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This is so unreal - it's hard to believe someone is making this argument.
I actually think he makes a lot of sense. Although that's probably not going to earn my any more admirers.

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Old
06-24-2011, 04:56 PM
  #145
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Which is why basically the same team lost a series after being up 3-0? I think you're rationalizing after the fact to explain their cup win rather than seriously attempting to analyse it.
It wasn't basically the same team. Far from it.

Nathan Horton, Rich Peverley, and Chris Kelly were all trade acquisitions that the Bruins made between their 2nd round choke job of 2010 and their Stanley Cup Win of 2011.

All three of them (especially Horton) played very important roles in Boston's Cup win, and significantly helped out Boston's offense in the playoffs.

The key difference was Nathan Horton. He gave the Bruins just enough added top line offense to put them over the top, compared to the Bruins' 2010 team.

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06-24-2011, 09:06 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I completely disagree. Richards and Carter with Giroux were the guys that drove the bus on forward for them. Hartnell and Briere only had impressive production because they were playing soft minutes. Now they are back to being a second line. While Voracek is nice, he also doesn't fully replace Carter on the top line. And Schenn is a few years from really contributing. The upgrade is Bryzgalov, but I don't think that's going to be huge difference between what they got from Bobrovsky last year.

Compared to what they were last season, I think they are far weaker. They were at or near the top of the East now they'll be back in the pack of 5-9 teams.

And for the future when their youth does come into its own, they'll have problems with an aging back-end that needs replacement.
you do realize that Briere's best years, production-wise, were with Buffalo where he was the first line centre?

if anything, his production probably dips a little by being on such a stacked flyers team b/c his pp time and offensive zone face-off time was reduced.


and what is it with this focus on "soft minutes" lately? obviously when you are surrounded by quality players, it means you won't face as tough match-ups, but I don't see how that becomes a knock against a player like briere.

I'll be quite surprised if the Flyers fall out of the top 4, but given how strong the East is getting (i don't get/buy the argument that it's somehow getting weaker b/c carter + richards were moved), the battle for those top 4 spots will be fierce.

Pitt (assuming sid/geno are healthy), Wash, Philly, Boston, TB, NJ... then us, Buffalo, NYR, and who knows which of the non-playoff teams will turn the corner this year and knock someone out of that bottom 4 group.

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06-24-2011, 09:09 PM
  #147
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Parity? It could have been easily us in the Bruins' position!

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06-25-2011, 03:09 AM
  #148
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As for the Flyers:

I think they managed to get (at least) fair value for Carter and Richards, to their credit.

I also think that their forwards will be truly fantastic... in a few years.

Problem is, by then, Pronger and Timonen will likely be in serious decline (or gone).


The Flyers' trades make perfect, glorious sense for a rebuilding team. But the Flyers aren't a rebuilding team. When you have 36 year old Pronger and Timonen as your Top 2 D, and you're one year removed from a Cup Final appearance, your attitude should definitely be "win now".

These trades don't really help the Flyers do that, imo. They'll likely make the Flyers much better up front within a few years, but will Pronger and Timonen have much left in the tank by then?


It's an interesting gamble that Holmgren is taking, but I don't think that I fully agree with it. If it was just the Carter deal, or just the Richards deal, I think it would be great. Free up some cap space, and strike a good balance between trying to win now while setting your team up for long-term success. But by doing both trades, they're taking a bit of a risk, imo.

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06-25-2011, 05:51 AM
  #149
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If the habs add one big name on D, Markov and Gorges get back to former levels and stay healthy, and Subban/Price don't have down years or get injured, then I'd say the habs will be a contender next year.

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06-25-2011, 01:29 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
JVR and Giroux would be there anyway though. They're adding Voracek and Brizgalov instead of Carter and Richards.

If we assume both Giroux and JVR make huge leaps this season they could be better but they're now a question mark. I certainly wouldn't say they're a sure thing to finish ahead of us now.
both JVR/Giroux, if they pick up where they left off in the post-season, are strong bets to put up career years, then they add Voracek (also poised for a step up), Simmonds (ditto... he looked awesome in the p/o), Bryzgalov (interesting to see how he handles playing for a favorite vs a cinderella squad, but if he maintains his level of play he's a huge upgrade) and finally Schenn, who is an unknown, but if he makes the team could quite easily be an impact producer given the talent he's surrounded with.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Long term they look scary. Schenn, Giroux, JVR and others... that's a great core to work with. But I don't understand the reasoning behind signing Brizgalov now though if you're going to rebuild. They should've gone after somebody like Rask instead.
i don't know how much of a "re-build" this would be. They moved 2 top-6 players, while adding 1 top 6 player, 2 top 9 players, and a top-tier goalie... given how balanced/deep their team already was, that's a net upgrade imo, not too mention the picks.



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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We should go out and trade vets to Burke for picks too. It's obviously the path to success...
as bad as the kessel trade was, it's hard to knock the way Burke has re-tooled the laffs. Asset-wise, he's done a pretty good job of building up their organizational depth while slowly improving the roster talent.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
On another note, look at how bad the East has become. There are question marks everywhere in this conference.

Pitts: What happens to Crosby & Malkin this year? They should still be good but...
Wash: Which OV shows up? Are they offensive or defensive?
Bos: Should be good to go but they could use Seguin to step up.
Philly: Hey, wha happen?
TB: Should be good but defense is an issue
NJ: Which team shows up?
MTL: Can they actually put it in the net? Is Markov actually going to be healthy?
NYR: Will probably land some other high priced FA in an effort to make the playoffs again.
as i posted above, at this point (and things can obviously change after summer moves are done),
i think there are 5-6 quality teams that will be battling for the top 4 spots

Pitt, Wash, Bost, Philly, TB, NJ...

then another 3 teams that might challenge for the upper group if things go right

Mtl, Buffalo, NYR...

then another 2-3 teams that could turn a corner if things go very right

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