Agreed but Turris can not make them win the cup.
Not this year.
So in February, if Turris is injured and out for a few months...
If Turris is not enough reliable to be a top-6.
And I smell a good chance at the cup, I would.
We have seen these kind of trades a few times.
Chiarelli gave what exactly for a mere three months of Horton?
Considering Filatov was traded for a 3rd round pick, I wouldn't be surprised a Gomez trade could get Turris. Good for the future, but Habs then need to get a centre...either UFA signing like Richards or Laich, or trade to get Stastny.
i dont know how much pull the coyotes board has with management, although it wouldnt shock me, considering the city spent what 30 million to keep them afloat
all seriousness, IF gomez is going to be moved, i wouldnt move him this year, itd be nice to get the contract gone, but we would be taking a step back
I'm not saying to actually DO what I am about to talk about, but heck this is a discussion forum so let's discuss something totally off the board. It could be fun.
If Philly could pull radical stuff after playing 6 rounds of playoffs the last two years, then anyone can.
What if the carrot the Habs offered was...............a package deal of TWO Stanley Cup winners, with chemistry pre-loaded.......in other words if the Habs offered other clubs a package deal of Gomez plus Gionta, what could they get back in THAT case?
Suppose the target was Phoenix, what should the Habs ask in return?
How about Gomez, Gionta, Carle and Pouliot
for
Shane Doan, Taylor Pyatt, Lauri Korpikoski and Oliver Ekman-Larsson?
Phoenix would be able to market a Spanish-descendant, two Americans with Stanley Cup rings and the track record of having helped bring the Habs to a Conference final their first year with the club. From a fan/marketing viewpoint, none of the four guys leaving would be American.
Habs would get a RW with a RH shot and grit, an experienced LW with size, speed and two-way ability, another forward with Top-9 scoring prowess to replace Pouliot and a young promising D.
I agree, my comments are too long to keep track.
You may be able to do the effort to follow the whole discussion.
It fits in the last two or three pages.
Personnally, despite having long thread, I do not feel lost at all.
We can agree that:
1 year of Horton + 2 years Campbell <<< Widerman + 1st + 3rd
Now if you put this in the context of a team who wants to go for the cup...
It is a gamble: you know you give more in the future to get a lot now.
To me, it was the best trade of 2011...
Chiarelli gave more but has a cup...
Going back to my point: Gomez has a very good value.
as then we need a big centre, who can score, unless PG has one in the bank, hard to make a deal for gomer.
Exactly! Even though Gomez had an awful season, we are a much better team with him in the lineup...if he is gone, there has to be a suitable replacement, not named Eller or Desharnais at this point...
Exactly! Even though Gomez had an awful season, we are a much better team with him in the lineup...if he is gone, there has to be a suitable replacement, not named Eller or Desharnais at this point...
Eller or Desharnais would be fine if we got another winger to play Top-6 - we'd be a better team than last year.
If we get another winger but can move Gomez and still find a suitable replacement, we will still be better off. Moving Gomez off the books doesn't just help this year, it helps for the next two seasons as well. It gives us money for Subban and Price.
Exactly! Even though Gomez had an awful season, we are a much better team with him in the lineup...if he is gone, there has to be a suitable replacement, not named Eller or Desharnais at this point...
We're not a better team with him in the line-up.
He stinks, he adds no value to the team and he doesn't do anything offensively.
Our team would be better if we removed him and played with 11 forwards, he's that bad.
Did you just wrote that you see Gomez having some value?
I tought he had no value.
My wrong.
I didn't say Gomez had any value. He has negative value as far as I'm concerned.
I said we could move him and find a suitable replacement - not in a trade involving him. It'd have to be another trade for a prospect or an FA signing.
I guess it is too long to read.
Nice ad hominem move BTW.
The whole point was not to say Gomez can be traded for OEL.
Point made, if read again the original post I replied to: Gomez is indeed worth a top-6 for us.
Why would you trade him for a fourth line player?
AFAICS, we are not at SCap and Gomez still remain a top-6.
Habs are rich enough and are going after the cup.
They have more d-men than they can ice.
PG is now building a team with more depth so that injuries does not kill us along the way.
Can you imagine that Spacek is now bottom-2?
This shows our depth.
Trading Gomez for anything but a top-6 would be insane.
Please try to read in details, these little details may be long but they reflect a complex mind...
BTW, nice long post from BaseballCoach. It seems to me that he does know what he is talking about.
Edit:
Yes I said Gomez+ could be traded for OEL.
Gomez + PK for OEL?
Gomez + AK for OEL?
Gomez + DD for OEL?
Gomez + Leblanc for OEL?
Proving my point: Gomez has top-6 value.
Not sure what world you're living in, what depth are you talking about
"They have more d-men than they can ice."
Canadiens, have old, slow, soft, aging defencemen, Tinordi and Beaulieu are 2/3 years away, Subban is a keeper, did you even watch the Stanley Cup finals, Boston and Vancouver had younger, tougher, and faster defence
"PG is now building a team with more depth so that injuries does not kill us along the way."
Where is this depth, name (1) top 6 forward prospect, yes, they have a bunch of 3rd/4th lines in the system
"Can you imagine that Spacek is now bottom-2?"
Spacek should be retired, he's a non-factor
"This shows our depth"
Really don't have a 1st line centre on the team or in the system, and like I said before, prospects are a bunch of 3rd/4th line players, not much to get excited about
He stinks, he adds no value to the team and he doesn't do anything offensively.
Our team would be better if we removed him and played with 11 forwards, he's that bad.
He was bad last year, that being said he is our only centre that can carry the puck, and get in to the other teams end....most nights that alone allows us to create chances...with Max back in the lineup, we may even get some ES goals....let's hope Gomez rebounds, because I don't think he is going anywhere, until next offseason...
Not sure what world you're living in, what depth are you talking about
"They have more d-men than they can ice."
Canadiens, have old, slow, soft, aging defencemen, Tinordi and Beaulieu are 2/3 years away, Subban is a keeper, did you even watch the Stanley Cup finals, Boston and Vancouver had younger, tougher, and faster defence
"PG is now building a team with more depth so that injuries does not kill us along the way."
Where is this depth, name (1) top 6 forward prospect, yes, they have a bunch of 3rd/4th lines in the system
"Can you imagine that Spacek is now bottom-2?"
Spacek should be retired, he's a non-factor
"This shows our depth"
Really don't have a 1st line centre on the team or in the system, and like I said before, prospects are a bunch of 3rd/4th line players, not much to get excited about
This post is a complete joke. I really wonder if some of you guys actually watch hockey or not?!
Plekanec is not a 1st line center? Leblanc, Kristo and Avstin are not potential top 6 players? Please!
I'm not saying to actually DO what I am about to talk about, but heck this is a discussion forum so let's discuss something totally off the board. It could be fun.
If Philly could pull radical stuff after playing 6 rounds of playoffs the last two years, then anyone can.
What if the carrot the Habs offered was...............a package deal of TWO Stanley Cup winners, with chemistry pre-loaded.......in other words if the Habs offered other clubs a package deal of Gomez plus Gionta, what could they get back in THAT case?
Suppose the target was Phoenix, what should the Habs ask in return?
How about Gomez, Gionta, Carle and Pouliot
for
Shane Doan, Taylor Pyatt, Lauri Korpikoski and Oliver Ekman-Larsson?
Phoenix would be able to market a Spanish-descendant, two Americans with Stanley Cup rings and the track record of having helped bring the Habs to a Conference final their first year with the club. From a fan/marketing viewpoint, none of the four guys leaving would be American.
Habs would get a RW with a RH shot and grit, an experienced LW with size, speed and two-way ability, another forward with Top-9 scoring prowess to replace Pouliot and a young promising D.
Does that help both teams?
First, Gionta has a full NTC, I doubt he waives it to play in Phoenix.
Second, Doan is never going to play in Mtl. He has a NMC, he'll never waive it to play here... and for obvious reasons, he isn't much welcome here.
Third, OEL ain't going nowhere, he's their PK... poster should stop posting his name, it again gives us a bad rep.
I say trade Gomez to any team who's willing to eat his salary without giving us in return another albatros contract., (God I wish Gainey would be the GM somewhere else )
If we don't find any takers, start finding a replacement for him anyways on the market (Richards, Laich, Statsny, Jagr, etc.) and if we do... send his ass down to Hamilton and enough with the Gomez nightmare that started 2 years ago...
They may not have played together if their lines had been rolling with Desharnai's line after Eller/Kostitsyn or vise versa. If you look at the description of the dobber line combo tool, it says:
.
So when a team is in the middle of a line change in a sense that a player or two managed to get off but the third forward didn't, and there's a shot attempt, or a hit, or a penalty, or a giveaway, etc., that will be considered an "event" with the players on the ice as a line. Once you get down to somewhere under 2% or so the line combination tool uses some of its utility.
That's not to say they didn't play together as a planned line. With the way Martin had to juggle his lines last year it wouldn't surprise me if he tried Desharnais-Eller-Kostitsyn. I can't say I recall it.
That's true Roke, the percentage doesn't factor in line changes (overlaps).
I'll use Eller numbers for example here. All stats are from NHL.com, except the line combination %, which I obtained from DobberHockey.
Eller played 828.35 minutes at Even Strength. 1.14% of 828.35 is approximately 9.44 minutes in total. We'll use that total as the approximate time that Desharnais, Eller and Kostitsyn were on the ice at the same time.
Here are the average minutes per game at even strength for all three players.
Desharnais - 10.04
Eller - 10.45
Kostitsyn - 13.36
Now I'm going to take it a one step further. Here are the average time per shift for all three player.
- Minutes played per game *For each player*
- Minutes played per shift *For each player*
- All three played the majority of their time on three separate lines (Decreasing the chances of them overlapping due to a line change)
- Desharnais played only 43 games
Now I'm not saying that overlapping didn't happen. I'm only using these numbers to prove that they did actually play together for a period of time on a line together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach
Unless I was so tired I blew what I was writing, the point I was trying to make was that the Eller-Kostitsyn combo that everyone says they liked and which had Eller as CENTER, did not have DD on the wing.
In response to your point here, if for any reason we DID want to put Eller, AK46 and DD together, I would strongly recommend moving Eller to wing, not DD. Desharnais will get killed out there if he has to win board battles all the time. Also he has the better offensive vision of the two youngsters.
As for whether we have the type of players to make an energy line, I think that a fourth line of say Desharnais at center giving it his all for 10 minutes a game, with Darche and White on the wings could indeed create some energy and pot some goals too, especially if they play against guys who are there for muscle and not brains.
Where we may differ is that IMO to be true contender a club should have a checking line that can neutralize the first or second line of the opponent. This is what we had in Moore-Lapierre-Pyatt, and it enabled us to have either the Pleks or Gomez line match up against a lesser line most of the time, meaning that either Cammalleri or Gionta was getting some room to roam.
Down the road if Gomez is moved (which would likely be AFTER this year), maybe Desharnais could become our #2 offensive center playing with decent-sized wingers, while Eller tries to round out his game and become another Jordan Staal, strong defensively with size and speed. We could then give Eller good positionally-aware defensive wingers with speed, like Gionta and Pyatt. This line may be worth its weight in gold, generating goals off the counter-attack and smothering the opponents' scoring opportunities. The trio could play against anyone and not be outmatched, allowing the coach to insulate the Desharnais line a bit, giving them more offensive opportunity without expecting them to have to focus primarily on defence.
That would allow us to make a top three lines of something like:
Plekanec-Leblanc or UFA-Cammalleri
Desharnais-Kostitsyn or replacement-Pacioretty
Eller-Gionta-Pyatt
the fourth line could be:
White
Darche (if still here)
xxx probably replacing Moen
I see what you're saying BC, but that wasn't my intention. I should have been more specific with my point, for that, I apologize.
We're in agreement on that part. Out of the two, I would much rather have Desharnais as the center. As besides the points you listed, he's also better at face offs.
That's true, I'm not ruling out the possibility of Desharnais ever centering our 4th line. I just want our 4th line to have a bit more grit, to be more of a crash and bang line. I'm sure you'll agree, Desharnais's style of play doesn't quite fit that mold. Which is why I'd like to see White and Moen paired together with Darche or Pyatt being thrown in for defensive purposes.
I don't think we differ on that point BC. I agree that we should have a true checking line, if we want to seriously be considered contenders. I just don't think that either Desharnais or Eller are at the level where we could use them to center that type of line.
I wouldn't be against the Habs going in that direction later on if Gomez is moved. Though I feel that Eller has more potential to grab the #2 C spot than Desharnais does. This is one of the reasons why I want us to keep Gomez for now. Let Desharnais and Eller battle it out, and the winner gets Gomez's spot.
First, Gionta has a full NTC, I doubt he waives it to play in Phoenix.
Second, Doan is never going to play in Mtl. He has a NMC, he'll never waive it to play here... and for obvious reasons, he isn't much welcome here.
Actually, that's a small segment of the population, and it might just be what's needed to turn his reputation around, to come here. Price is his cousin BTW. I've seen weirder things happen, so to say 'never' is a bit foolish. The probabilities are unlikely, but the possibility is there.
Quote:
Third, OEL ain't going nowhere, he's their PK... poster should stop posting his name, it again gives us a bad rep.
1- OEL is not PK. Hasn't proven as much. He might be younger, but there isn't as much drive to his game, while having most of the tools to be a franchise D.
2- Given the present situation in Phoenix, anything can happen. We've seen weirder things. Like Carolina letting go of JJ for peanuts, because of a situation outside the rink. It's unlikely, but not impossible.
3- Don't talk about reputation. Everyone on this board as looked lost from time to time, including you, of all people, shouldn't judge. I've read some pretty dumb stuff over the years coming from you, like this :
Quote:
I say trade Gomez to any team who's willing to eat his salary without giving us in return another albatros contract., (God I wish Gainey would be the GM somewhere else )
If we don't find any takers, start finding a replacement for him anyways on the market (Richards, Laich, Statsny, Jagr, etc.) and if we do... send his ass down to Hamilton and enough with the Gomez nightmare that started 2 years ago...
If it weren't for having Gomez, we would've missed the playoffs last year (posted almost PPG for the 2nd half of that season), and never have went to the conference finals. Oh, what a nightmare! And send him to Hamilton? And you consider yourself a realist?
Actually, that's a small segment of the population, and it might just be what's needed to turn his reputation around, to come here. Price is his cousin BTW. I've seen weirder things happen, so to say 'never' is a bit foolish. The probabilities are unlikely, but the possibility is there.
1- OEL is not PK. Hasn't proven as much. He might be younger, but there isn't as much drive to his game, while having most of the tools to be a franchise D.
2- Given the present situation in Phoenix, anything can happen. We've seen weirder things. Like Carolina letting go of JJ for peanuts, because of a situation outside the rink. It's unlikely, but not impossible.
3- Don't talk about reputation. Everyone on this board as looked lost from time to time, including you, of all people, shouldn't judge. I've read some pretty dumb stuff over the years coming from you, like this :
If it weren't for having Gomez, we would've missed the playoffs last year (posted almost PPG for the 2nd half of that season), and never have went to the conference finals. Oh, what a nightmare! And send him to Hamilton? And you consider yourself a realist?
Very brillant ... btw, that's a personnal attack...
Gomez played half a year 2 years ago... that should tell you he didn't help the team much...
As for the other arguments you bring, it's almost a pissing contest, no new counter-argument, just you think vs I think... so I pass.
The addition of Martin Hanzal on Plekanec's line would certainly be an asset!
The shedding of salary would open the door for contract signatures and possible trades...
Team Payroll Bonuses Cap Space Roster $/Opening
Carolina Hurricanes » $31,083,333 $752,500 $33,216,667 12 $3,019,697
We would be VERY generous for a young forward that has averaged 13 goals, 13 assists in his last 3 seasons......
But hey! Helping that team to reach the minimum cap space is the least we can do....Lol.
I'll take those 13 goals and fantastic defensive presence.
Just because you don't know the guy doesn't mean he's garbage. He's a premier defensive center and Gomez couldn't dream of netting such a valuable asset.
+ He's one of the top face offs center in the league. he would be the ideal 3rd line center, but I doubt that DD or Eller are ready for second line duties.
Look his icetime last year..he his NOT a 3rd line center.....over 19 minutes per
)
... btw, that's a personnal attack...
