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Old
08-31-2005, 09:18 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by phishman3579
You clearly stole the idea from me!! Hoo hoo, tell 'em Fred.

08-24-2005, 10:01 PM
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...45#post3354745


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08-31-2005, 09:26 PM
  #27
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Good ole Larry....supports a total rebuild one week then a superstar is available and we should throw away the rebuild just to get one scorer. Mr. Flipflop. Who cares about a franchise player from another team. The idea is to grow our own, wasn't it? Atlanta will have to trade one of Hossa, Kovaluchuk and their young goalie in the future.

I don't doubt he combs the internet to get future writing ideas. He rarely has an original idea himslef.

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08-31-2005, 10:20 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Sather Hater

I would rather have 4 solid players over the next four years (that's 20% of your starting line-up).
The argument of Ilya possibly leaving in four years is a valid one. But where is it written that each of our next four first rounders will even crack the starting lineup? Remember Cherneski, Brown, etc? I'd be happy if two of of those four become solid top two line players.

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09-01-2005, 12:25 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
He posts here
I always thought Brooks was SOTI, but if you have something you'd like to share then please do so...

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09-01-2005, 05:16 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Fletch
I will take both Lecavalier and Thornton over Kovalchuk. I will take guys that do something other than come down the left wing than others. I view things others than flash as a value add. It's not contest to me. There is a reason why Atlanta didn't really compete for a playoff position despite his success - sure, blame everthing aside from Kovalchuk, but that's not a way to do things.
Which is why I'm not very big on giving up the farm for him. If the Rangers can get him without giving up Tyutin, Jessiman, Sauer or Korpikoski, fine. Otherwise, I'd rather not persue him.

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09-01-2005, 07:43 AM
  #31
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For all practical matters, jas...

you're not getting Kovalchuk without giving up someone like Tyutin (who may not even be worth a #1 pick to many). I cannot recall any instance in which a team signed a player to an offer sheet and gave up the picks. RFAs are negotiated in a trade. My guess it would have to look something like Tyutin, Jessiman and a #1 pick - which could be why Kovalchuk is not a Ranger, and why nobody else has thus far acquired him.

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09-01-2005, 08:01 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
you're not getting Kovalchuk without giving up someone like Tyutin (who may not even be worth a #1 pick to many). I cannot recall any instance in which a team signed a player to an offer sheet and gave up the picks. RFAs are negotiated in a trade. My guess it would have to look something like Tyutin, Jessiman and a #1 pick - which could be why Kovalchuk is not a Ranger, and why nobody else has thus far acquired him.
I know this sounds absurd, but the 1st round pick is what kills the trade for me. I'd hate losing Tyutin, but could live with it, and am not a fan of Jessimen at all. That first rounder though, man. That's be extremely tough to let go. It'd probably end trade talks for me. I know, I know, it's silly...

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09-01-2005, 08:04 AM
  #33
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Sigh..

TEAM rebuild, not 1st line LW rebuild.

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09-01-2005, 08:14 AM
  #34
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I somewhat agree, davisian...

right now I agree. A year from now if some of these prospects start to pan-out, Lundmark and Balej turn things around, and a few other things happen - then I may trade for a guy like Kovalchuk. The timing, to me, is not right. A rebuild is a rebuild. This team needs to be built from the goal out, and needs people in each position because starting a couple years ago, there was not much, so it's almost like the rebuild's from a standing start. The Rangers have had tons of picks the last few years, and have been in decent drafting positions and were able to make opportunistic trades. That helps a rebuild immensely. But you don't go for that big trade until the time is right - which isn't now. The Rangers may miss Kovalchuk - but it doesn't mean they can't find someone later. Maybe next season the Pens are still having trouble with Malkin, and he becomes available and the Rangers are willing to pay the little extra needed to acquire him. There will be other RFAs available, as there are every year. Patience.

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09-01-2005, 08:33 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
right now I agree. A year from now if some of these prospects start to pan-out, Lundmark and Balej turn things around, and a few other things happen - then I may trade for a guy like Kovalchuk..........Patience.
After we've seen the team 82 times, I'm pretty sure we're going to find a much more glaring weakness than 1st line LW'er. If we ever are going to give up these first rounders, I'm still not sure I'll supprt it, but it damn well better solve the team's biggest problem. That's what I've got against this Kovalchuk move. It almost certainly will not.

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09-01-2005, 09:10 AM
  #36
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I was hoping...

that at the end of the season there would be less weaknesses. Of course, the operative word in that sentence is hope. I'm actually kind of high on the defensive prospects, especially Liffiton, Taylor and Baranka, all of whom will likely be in Hartford, and hopefully each takes a step forward with the former two looking like they can step-up to the NHL the next season. I'm also high on Kondratiev, who I'm hoping surprises. It's the forwards that scare me - although either Dawes or Prucha can surprise, but I don't know what to expect from Lundmark, Balej and Immonen. I keep saying patience, but I can't wait for the damn season to start already. Also, I'm having real trouble keeping up with the NYR 'depth chart'. I cannot remember who's where, who's signed, and who's vying for what position. Maybe we should create one and sticky it and make changes as changes are made.

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Old
09-01-2005, 10:55 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draft Guru
I always thought Brooks was SOTI, but if you have something you'd like to share then please do so...
No way SOTI is Brooks, SOTI's usually right . . .

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Old
09-01-2005, 02:23 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
you're not getting Kovalchuk without giving up someone like Tyutin (who may not even be worth a #1 pick to many). I cannot recall any instance in which a team signed a player to an offer sheet and gave up the picks. RFAs are negotiated in a trade. My guess it would have to look something like Tyutin, Jessiman and a #1 pick - which could be why Kovalchuk is not a Ranger, and why nobody else has thus far acquired him.
Hence, I'm not all that keen on getting him.

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Old
09-01-2005, 03:13 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
So does Sather, it would appear.
LMAO.

On a serious note, you'd be surprised who visits these sites. Remember aside from being in the spotlight, they are still people like you and I.

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Old
09-01-2005, 10:55 PM
  #40
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4 first rounds picks for Kovelchuk?

Its worth it.

Didnt the rangers sign Joe Sakic in 1996 and almost had to give up 5 first rounds picks, but Colorado matched the offer?

Would you trade??

Stephane Chernerski
Manny Maholtra
Pavel Brendle
Dan Blackburn
Jamie Lundmark

For Joe Sakic?

In a heartbeat.

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Old
09-02-2005, 12:54 AM
  #41
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Honestly if Kov want's to sign with the Rags and we have to give up 4 first round picks why not? How many of the Rags 1st round picks have panned out in the last 10 years?

Yes if we picked everyone correctly maybe it would be uneven but this kid isn't even 23 yet and he's shown he is going to score goals regardless.... Do IT!!!

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Old
09-02-2005, 01:15 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by LiquidClown
Honestly if Kov want's to sign with the Rags and we have to give up 4 first round picks why not? How many of the Rags 1st round picks have panned out in the last 10 years?

Yes if we picked everyone correctly maybe it would be uneven but this kid isn't even 23 yet and he's shown he is going to score goals regardless.... Do IT!!!
And what happens if he blows out his knee and never fully recovers? While I recognize the need for the real deal, I would hate to put all my apples in one cart. If something happens it becomes that much harder to ever create a core of players to build around.

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Old
09-02-2005, 05:11 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
And what happens if he blows out his knee and never fully recovers? While I recognize the need for the real deal, I would hate to put all my apples in one cart. If something happens it becomes that much harder to ever create a core of players to build around.
Exactly, BR. Yeah, the #1 picks didn't pan out in the 90's. But, would you give up Jessiman, Montoya, Staal and next's year's #1, which judging by the current roster is probably a top five pick? I'm not ready to do that. I still don't think this team is in a position to trade off quality depth, which is what those #1 will provide, especially since is clearly not through the worst of this rebuild.

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09-02-2005, 05:52 AM
  #44
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Of course you would, macho...

let's take this scenario. The year is 2001. The Pens are contemplating signing an RFA to an offer sheet, even if it means giving up four #1s. They do it. The next four years produce Ryan Malone, Marc-Andrew Fleury, Evgeny Malkin and Sidney Crosby. In hindisght, do you do it?

Also, I do like the comments about getting Kovalchuk and building around him...one should say and hope others that are here are built around him. You typically build around players through the draft - and while #1s don't always work-out, they do moreso than other picks - and it's a bit tougher building around a player without #1 picks. Who knows what they'd be able to get for other roster players now - I don't think that's so easy to predict with the changing environment.


Last edited by Fletch: 09-02-2005 at 06:08 AM.
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Old
09-02-2005, 08:09 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Edge
On a serious note, you'd be surprised who visits these sites. Remember aside from being in the spotlight, they are still people like you and I.

Dear Denis Potvin,

If you're reading this, you still, very much, SUCK.

Sincerely,

Tough Guy behind a keyboard.

PS- And EFF YOU Mick Vukota

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Old
09-02-2005, 02:27 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
And what happens if he blows out his knee and never fully recovers? While I recognize the need for the real deal, I would hate to put all my apples in one cart. If something happens it becomes that much harder to ever create a core of players to build around.

Which I think was people forget. He gets drilled 3 games into his career, that's it. Period end of sentence, no refunds and no reset button.

Everyone would make the move when they look in hindsight, but we don't have that advantage now.

Four first picks is a heavy price, if it weren't you'd see teams making moves all the time. Especially teams who are already winners and know they'll pick in the 20's for the next 4 or 5 years anyway.

But that's a high risk, if it wasn't it wouldn't be much of a deterent now would it?

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Old
09-02-2005, 06:30 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas
Exactly, BR. Yeah, the #1 picks didn't pan out in the 90's. But, would you give up Jessiman, Montoya, Staal and next's year's #1, which judging by the current roster is probably a top five pick? I'm not ready to do that. I still don't think this team is in a position to trade off quality depth, which is what those #1 will provide, especially since is clearly not through the worst of this rebuild.
That' still could be like asking, "would you give up Ekman, Jim Carey and Pilon" They haven't proved anything to me yet.

Quote:
Which I think was people forget. He gets drilled 3 games into his career, that's it. Period end of sentence, no refunds and no reset button.
You mean like Stefan Cherneski? Or some freak accident like Blackburn? Logic flaw there, prospects can get hurt too.

As far as our picks in the draft let's take a look at the last twenty years shall we?

1985-Ulf Dahlen (189 games and 131 points) Not too bad but didn't stick around long
1986- Brian Leetch (no stats needed best Rangers draft pick in my opinion)
1987-Jayson More (16 games 1 whole point)
1988- No first round pick
1989- Steven Rice (11 games and 2 points)
1990- Michael Stewart (0 games 0 points)
1991- Alexi Kovalev (492 games 307 points) Good pick up although never lived up to what his skillset says he can do
1992 - Peter Ferraro (8 games and 1 point)
1993 - Niklas Sundstrom ( 315 games and 163 games) Again not bad but not 1st round good
1994 - Dan Cloutier (34 games and roughly 2.55 GAA) Those are some pretty excellent stats for a 1st round goaltender that's for sure.
1995 - Christian Dube (33 games and 2 points) Wow I'm starting to see a pattern here.
1996 - Jeff Brown (0 games 0 points)
1997 - Stefan Cherneski (0 games 0 points)
1998 - Manny Malholtra - (335 games 45 points) Go ahead use the "we didn't 'raise' him like a prospect should be" that's even more fodder for my side then.
1999 - Pavel Brendl (0 games 0 points) Jamie Lundmark (111 games 21 points) great numbers there for a #4 and a #9 pick.
2000- No first round pick (wow one of the best picks yet)
2001 - Blackburn (63 games and around a 3.2 GAA) excellent numbers yet again from a first round goalie! Oh wait he got hurt, but wait he was a prospect they're immune right?
2002 -No first round pick
2003 - Hugh Jessiman (0 games 0 points) also hampered by a few injuries in college if I remember correctly.
2004 - Al Montoya (0 games 0 points) Played great in the last world juniors though! *cough* *cough*
2005 - Marc Staal (0 games 0 points) Wont' comment but he still hasn't proved anything to me.

So all in all let's see what we have (I'll start with 2001 that's enough time for a player to break through).... We've got
4 players that never even stepped on the ice in Ranger Blue....
6 that did play but didn't even play a full season's worth.
2 players that are still with the Rangers (I gave Leetch the benefit of the doubt because he played most of his career in Ranger blue.
2 players that got hurt before they could reach their potential
6 players that played over 100 games but only 3 that have played more than 300.

In total out of 16 1st round draft picks we got 2736 man games almost half of which are from Brian Leetch. That means we got about 171 games out of each draft pick. Take Leetch out of the equation and out of 15 1st rounders we got only 100 games out of each player.....


One out of every four Rangers 1st round draft picks in the last 20 years (minus 2002-2005) have never even suited up in Ranger blue.

Sorry but I'm still leaning towards Kovalchuk.

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09-02-2005, 06:36 PM
  #48
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So what you're saying, Liquid...

is that the Rangers' future drafts will look like their past drafts. There are other teams that have drafted well in four consectutive years (getting a couple players that is). I'm hoping that perhaps one or two of the last four Rangers picks work out, and hope for a couple out of the next four.

As for injuries...the point is, with a fragile team with so many holes to fill currently, it's tough to give up so much for one player - the risk, at this point, outweigh the reward, at this point. I guarantee that there will be an under 25 year old available in the next two years that the Rangers can acquire, and perhaps would be in a better position to do so.

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09-02-2005, 07:57 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
is that the Rangers' future drafts will look like their past drafts. There are other teams that have drafted well in four consectutive years (getting a couple players that is). I'm hoping that perhaps one or two of the last four Rangers picks work out, and hope for a couple out of the next four.

As for injuries...the point is, with a fragile team with so many holes to fill currently, it's tough to give up so much for one player - the risk, at this point, outweigh the reward, at this point. I guarantee that there will be an under 25 year old available in the next two years that the Rangers can acquire, and perhaps would be in a better position to do so.
History does tend to repeat itself, now I'm not saying I'm clairvoyant or anything so I very well could be wrong and we could draft the next Bure, Pronger, Yzerman and Roy in 4 years consecutively, or maybe we just get 4 second line players or we could end up with 4 players that never play for the Rangers. All I'm saying is that I don't believe that a first round pick is as valuable as most people do. The draft is a complete crapshoot, look at players like Lundqvist and the such.
On the otherhand Kovalchuk is a sure thing, he's proven, maybe not in the playoffs, but hey we're the Rangers.

Injuries are a pain but unless a player is injury prone (I don't blieve Illya is I don't recall him being out for extended periods of time) then it's tough to say, "well if he gets injured" once you start thinking that it's going to happen because you play different. Plus with all this "New NHL" talk it seems that it would benefit a player like him.

Let me just say one other thing though, I'm not for trading the picks for Illya as much as I am trying to get the point across that a first round pick isn't automatically gold. As the stats on the draft I've posted, we still have yet to see any real results in recent years from our drafts.
Now I would love for Montoya to come in and become the next Roy, Jessiman to become the next Modono (or whomever) and all our draft picks to become inst-legends but I'm rather skeptical.

On a closing note I don't see this deal happening as why would Kovalchuk want to play here anyways?

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09-02-2005, 08:45 PM
  #50
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History may or may not...

different GMs. Different regions. Other teams with different GMs. The Rangers did also once pick Kovalev, Leetch and Cloutier, not consecutively, but why can't history repeat itself in a decent manner? Also, there's been some decent other picks from the Rangers. The draft is a crapshoot but is also a function on the talent available and what other GMs are picking. A GM can fall into something accidentally if their pick is already taken.

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