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Carter and Richards Historically

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Old
06-26-2011, 03:55 PM
  #26
FlyerX
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So long as I can have Leclair-Lindros and Kerr as my top line, you can fill the rest of your roster before I pick again and I still like my chances.

I think a few people are overvaluing guys like Leach, Recchi and even Barber.

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Old
06-26-2011, 04:40 PM
  #27
Pyzik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
really? list me 20 skaters you would take over Richards. After about 15 you start getting into debatable territory. IMO
Clarke
Barber
Macleish
Leach
Jimmy Watson
Propp
Poulin
Kerr
Tocchet
Howe
McCrimmon
Recchi
Lindros
LeClair
Primeau
Gagne
Eklund
Linseman
Desjardins
Roenick

20 I would legit take over both them, skaters only not including Goalies. OK so they would be in the top 50, maybe even top 30-40....but they have not spent enough time here to warrent what others have done here with their tenure.

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Old
06-26-2011, 04:44 PM
  #28
The Flin Flon Bomber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyzik View Post
Clarke
Barber
Macleish
Leach
Jimmy Watson
Propp
Poulin
Kerr
Tocchet
Howe
McCrimmon
Recchi
Lindros
LeClair
Primeau
Gagne
Eklund
Linseman
Desjardins
Roenick

20 I would legit take over both them, skaters only not including Goalies. OK so they would be in the top 50, maybe even top 30-40....but they have not spent enough time here to warrent what others have done here with their tenure.
I dunno about Roenick. Only because he wasn't here for very long and it was towards the end of his career. The rest I can't really argue with.

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Old
06-26-2011, 04:57 PM
  #29
duffy9748
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Originally Posted by nevermore View Post




I am a huge Gagne fan, but he couldn't be the marquee player on a contending team.

Pre-lockout he was an all star caliber player but Primeau/Roenick/Leclair/Recchi were the big time players on those teams. That isn't Gagne's fault though, he was a young player on a team of big name veterans.

After the lockout, he had his best two seasons where he hit 47 and 41 goals. Peter Forsberg was a big reason for that though. I don't think it was all Forsberg but he definitely helped out a lot. 2005-2007 were the only years when Gagne was one of our top 2 players and we had no playoff success in those 2 years. After that, he started having the concussion problems. You have to consider that as a factor if you are speaking historically. He had a bounce back year in 08-09 but was never the same player he was in 2005.

This is not a knock on him, but Simon Gagne had a very good center playing next to him throughout his entire career. It was either Lindros/Primeau/Roenick/Forsberg/Richards. That's not a bad group of players to have as your center throughout your career.

He scored some very clutch goals for the Flyers and that does need to be included in his resume.

He never had the impact on the Flyers though that Richards did. Richards was one of our top offensive guns from 2007-2011. He was the best penalty killer in the league. He finished 2nd for the Selke. He was one of the more versatile players in the league. He could play in absolutely every single situation. He could play the point on the power play very well. He also went through long stretches of seasons without offensive wingers.

While reading that, you were probably thinking to yourself, "Yeah but Gagne did all those things too". He was, just not as good as Richards.

Something that Gagne didn't have was Richards physicality and toughness. How many games/series have been changed because Mike Richards layed someone out? He could impact the game in so many different ways. And not that Gagne wasn't a good leader, I would have no idea of knowing if he was/wasn't, but he turned down the captaincy several times. Say what you want about Richards and the media, but he led while on the ice more than any player I have personally watched on the Flyers.

Since we are speaking historically, you have to consider their entire time here and not just their prime. But if you could either have Mike Richards for six seasons, or Gagne for 10(11?)seasons, which would it be? For me it is Mike Richards every time. The main reason for that is because of how important Richards was to the Flyers. I'll state this again, I loved Simon Gagne while he was here, but did we really miss him that much this past season? It will be several years if ever before Mike Richards is replaced on this team. The fact that the guy who is supposed to replace him is the number 1 prospect in hockey and was a top 5 pick says enough.


Richards was the Flyers for the past 4 seasons. It is hard for me to even imagine the Flyers playing without Mike Richards. He's the first player/thing you think of when you hear Philadelphia Flyers.

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Old
06-26-2011, 05:03 PM
  #30
Pyzik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
I am a huge Gagne fan, but he couldn't be the marquee player on a contending team.

Pre-lockout he was an all star caliber player but Primeau/Roenick/Leclair/Recchi were the big time players on those teams. That isn't Gagne's fault though, he was a young player on a team of big name veterans.

After the lockout, he had his best two seasons where he hit 47 and 41 goals. Peter Forsberg was a big reason for that though. I don't think it was all Forsberg but he definitely helped out a lot. 2005-2007 were the only years when Gagne was one of our top 2 players and we had no playoff success in those 2 years. After that, he started having the concussion problems. You have to consider that as a factor if you are speaking historically. He had a bounce back year in 08-09 but was never the same player he was in 2005.

This is not a knock on him, but Simon Gagne had a very good center playing next to him throughout his entire career. It was either Lindros/Primeau/Roenick/Forsberg/Richards. That's not a bad group of players to have as your center throughout your career.

He scored some very clutch goals for the Flyers and that does need to be included in his resume.

He never had the impact on the Flyers though that Richards did. Richards was one of our top offensive guns from 2007-2011. He was the best penalty killer in the league. He finished 2nd for the Selke. He was one of the more versatile players in the league. He could play in absolutely every single situation. He could play the point on the power play very well. He also went through long stretches of seasons without offensive wingers.

While reading that, you were probably thinking to yourself, "Yeah but Gagne did all those things too". He was, just not as good as Richards.

Something that Gagne didn't have was Richards physicality and toughness. How many games/series have been changed because Mike Richards layed someone out? He could impact the game in so many different ways. And not that Gagne wasn't a good leader, I would have no idea of knowing if he was/wasn't, but he turned down the captaincy several times. Say what you want about Richards and the media, but he led while on the ice more than any player I have personally watched on the Flyers.

Since we are speaking historically, you have to consider their entire time here and not just their prime. But if you could either have Mike Richards for six seasons, or Gagne for 10(11?)seasons, which would it be? For me it is Mike Richards every time. The main reason for that is because of how important Richards was to the Flyers. I'll state this again, I loved Simon Gagne while he was here, but did we really miss him that much this past season? It will be several years if ever before Mike Richards is replaced on this team. The fact that the guy who is supposed to replace him is the number 1 prospect in hockey and was a top 5 pick says enough.


Richards was the Flyers for the past 4 seasons. It is hard for me to even imagine the Flyers playing without Mike Richards. He's the first player/thing you think of when you hear Philadelphia Flyers.


Honestly you cant compare it right now, Richards has not been gone for a season yet....you wont be able to know how much he is or is not missed until after this season....

I still think Richards is the 4th or 5th best captain in team history behind Clarke, Poulin, Lindros and possibly Primeau

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Old
06-26-2011, 05:09 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyzik View Post
Clarke
Barber
Macleish
Leach
Jimmy Watson
Propp
Poulin
Kerr
Tocchet
Howe
McCrimmon
Recchi
Lindros
LeClair
Primeau
Gagne
Eklund
Linseman
Desjardins
Roenick

20 I would legit take over both them, skaters only not including Goalies. OK so they would be in the top 50, maybe even top 30-40....but they have not spent enough time here to warrent what others have done here with their tenure.

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Old
06-26-2011, 05:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyzik View Post
Clarke
Barber
Macleish
Leach
Jimmy Watson
Propp
Poulin
Kerr
Tocchet
Howe
McCrimmon
Recchi
Lindros
LeClair
Primeau
Gagne
Eklund
Linseman
Desjardins
Roenick

20 I would legit take over both them, skaters only not including Goalies. OK so they would be in the top 50, maybe even top 30-40....but they have not spent enough time here to warrent what others have done here with their tenure.
Clarke-Yes
Barber-yes
Macleish-yes
Leach-yes
Jimmy Watson-No
Propp-yes
Poulin-No
Kerr-yes
Tocchet-Yes
Howe-yes
McCrimmon-No
Recchi-Yes
Lindros-Yes
LeClair-Yes
Primeau-No
Gagne-No
Eklund-No
Linseman-No
Desjardins-Yes
Roenick-No

As i said after about 12-15 there is a lot of debate.

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Old
06-26-2011, 08:47 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
ever see him play?

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Old
06-26-2011, 08:51 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Clarke-Yes
Barber-yes
Macleish-yes
Leach-yes
Jimmy Watson-No
Propp-yes
Poulin-No
Kerr-yes
Tocchet-Yes
Howe-yes
McCrimmon-No
Recchi-Yes
Lindros-Yes
LeClair-Yes
Primeau-No
Gagne-No
Eklund-No
Linseman-No
Desjardins-Yes
Roenick-No

As i said after about 12-15 there is a lot of debate.
you are out of your mind if you think richards was better then Gagne or Poulin

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Old
06-26-2011, 10:49 PM
  #35
MiamiScreamingEagles
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One other player I didn't see mentioned is Gary Dornhoefer. Second liner on two Cup teams and few players were as ambitious and tenacious. Dornhoefer is in the team's Hall of Fame, much of which stems from his importance in the team's formative days.

Contributions vary as roles are changed over time and ultimately it is difficult to draw true comparisons of players from different decades.

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Old
06-26-2011, 11:11 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
One other player I didn't see mentioned is Gary Dornhoefer. Second liner on two Cup teams and few players were as ambitious and tenacious. Dornhoefer is in the team's Hall of Fame, much of which stems from his importance in the team's formative days.

Contributions vary as roles are changed over time and ultimately it is difficult to draw true comparisons of players from different decades.
good call on Dornhoefer. I would add him to the list ahead of Richards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian822 View Post
you are out of your mind if you think richards was better then Gagne or Poulin
i think me being out of my mind might be kind a strong way to put it. There are several players, those 2 included who are really on a too close to call list. IMO.

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Old
06-26-2011, 11:13 PM
  #37
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Had they both had the chance to play out their contracts here they would both have made the team all time top 10. Cut short as it is, neither make the cut.

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Old
06-26-2011, 11:15 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
good call on Dornhoefer. I would add him to the list ahead of Richards.
What about Brind'Amour who I mentioned earlier? He seems to be overlooked in this thread.

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Old
06-26-2011, 11:18 PM
  #39
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What about Brind'Amour who I mentioned earlier? He seems to be overlooked in this thread.
absolutely. Brind'amour is another one. Still think he should of been the Captian of those Flyer teams when Lindros was here.

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