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Old
06-23-2011, 09:57 PM
  #76
BlueshirtBlitz
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I want to start turning guys like this into proven assets.

Like signings like these, but I want to see some asset shuffling.

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06-23-2011, 10:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I want to start turning guys like this into proven assets.

Like signings like these, but I want to see some asset shuffling.

We just did that with Horak+2+2 and before that with Sanguinetti for 2+6. I don't think the team is ready for more youth-for-age trades. We are not developed enough yet for that. You do that for your last needed asset, not to acquire the 3-4 additional assets the team needs.

Plus, those of us who were around for all the disastrous trades of Weight, Amonte, Marchant, 1995 first rounder, Norstrom, Karpovtsev, Zubov and Nedved for veterans still have a bitter taste in our mouth.

Many may have forgetten those years and what they eventually led to from 1998 to 2004, and many may not even be old enough to remember those days.

But youth-for-age never leads to good results. Just look at Toronto.

Stay the course, draft good players and acquire them in trades. Hopefully in a couple of years, the team will be close enough to contend where one or two youth-for-age trades may make sense.


Last edited by Beacon: 06-23-2011 at 10:53 PM.
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06-23-2011, 10:21 PM
  #78
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Anyone have a scouting report on this guy? Numbers seem good, not outstanding.

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06-23-2011, 10:23 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
We just did that with Horak+2+2 and before that with Sanguinetti for 2+6. I don't think the team is ready for more youth-for-age trades. We are not developed enough yet for that. You do that for your last needed asset, not to acquire the 3-4 additional assets the team needs.

Plus, those of us who were around for all the disastrous trades of Weight, Amonte, Marchant, 1995 first rounder, Norstrom, Karpovtsev, Zubov and Nedved for veterans still have a bitter taste in our mouth.

Many may have forgetten those years and what they eventually led to from 1998 to 2004, and many may not even be old enough to remember those days.

But youth-for-age never leads to good results. Just look at Toronto.

Stay the course, draft good players and acquire them in trades. Hopefully in a couple of years, the team will be close enough to contend where one or two youth-for-age trades may make sense.
Couldn't have said it any better. Trading away Zubov was the worst

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06-23-2011, 11:52 PM
  #80
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Couldn't have said it any better. Trading away Zubov was the worst
Weight, Amonte and Marchant were worth it. The other trades were disastrous.

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06-24-2011, 12:31 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by HagelinForPresident View Post
What I don't get is why a guy like Huberdeau is held in a much higher regard than JAM. JAM put up only about 10 points less than Huberdeau in the same league and is much smaller.

If it's easy for a bigger guy to push the QMJHL players around, shouldn't that mean JAM and Huber are about equal?
Lol, interesting logic, but NHL teams look at it from the complete opposite direction. Huberdeau will have size in the NHL, JAM (this is awesome btw) will not. That's where scouts really make their living, watching players in person and predicting potentials.

And, I did not read the thread, but can I get a total up on how many "The Cup is Ours!" posts?

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06-24-2011, 12:59 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Plus, those of us who were around for all the disastrous trades of Weight, Amonte, Marchant, 1995 first rounder, Norstrom, Karpovtsev, Zubov and Nedved for veterans still have a bitter taste in our mouth.
But youth-for-age never leads to good results. Just look at Toronto.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that those three trades (along with the others from that year, obviously) led directly to a Stanley Cup... Maybe Amonte scores in OT in Game 7 of the ECF and maybe Marchant wins the final faceoff of Game 7 of the SCF... but you can't say those things for sure.

The Zubov trade was ridiculous, as was the Norstrom for a defensive F. At least the other deals from 1994 made hockey sense... those? They didn't.

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Old
06-24-2011, 02:04 AM
  #83
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He says in the article Rangers offered him 2 years but he said he could prove himself and sign a better contract next year.
Really really nice sentence of him! says enough about workethic! Hell show that hes worth it. Im excited to see him this upcoming season!

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06-24-2011, 03:18 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
We just did that with Horak+2+2 and before that with Sanguinetti for 2+6. I don't think the team is ready for more youth-for-age trades. We are not developed enough yet for that. You do that for your last needed asset, not to acquire the 3-4 additional assets the team needs.

Plus, those of us who were around for all the disastrous trades of Weight, Amonte, Marchant, 1995 first rounder, Norstrom, Karpovtsev, Zubov and Nedved for veterans still have a bitter taste in our mouth.

Many may have forgetten those years and what they eventually led to from 1998 to 2004, and many may not even be old enough to remember those days.

But youth-for-age never leads to good results. Just look at Toronto.

Stay the course, draft good players and acquire them in trades. Hopefully in a couple of years, the team will be close enough to contend where one or two youth-for-age trades may make sense.
Amonte helped bring Larmer to the Rangers. No Larmer--probably no cup. He was an integral part of that team and in the semi-finals and finals Larmer settled Kovalev down. He was his conscience almost--yapping at him all the time about his positioning.

Weight as well went for Tikkanen--another integral part of that team and of the next few seasons--one of which the Rangers made another run to the semi-finals before injuries decimated us.

Karpovtsev was not a big loss. He was a bottom pairing defensemen with mobility issues although he had a hell of a shot.

Zubov hurt--that was an ill concieved deal. Ditto for Norstrom--in terms of value we got nothing but **** back.

Nedved--well was Nedved. Really good some years--mediocre some others and he could be soft.

Marchant?--good player but I mean what was the big deal moving him?

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06-24-2011, 07:49 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
This has to be an AHL deal. If it was an NHL deal, he'd be subject to the ELC system and it wouldn't be for a single year.

Can anyone confirm?
It's an AHL deal. He was signed for one year and will be at development camp.

I can only guess, but he most likely believed that it was not in his interest to sign an AHL deal for two years, when he believes that he can get an ELC after one season.

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06-24-2011, 07:59 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
It's an AHL deal. He was signed for one year and will be at development camp.

I can only guess, but he most likely believed that it was not in his interest to sign an AHL deal for two years, when he believes that he can get an ELC after one season.
Thanks Leslie, that makes more sense. I have no problem with him only taking a 1 year deal. Go out and prove yourself kid. If you do, there will be an NHL contract for you.

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Old
06-24-2011, 09:19 AM
  #87
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Torts needs more Johnathan Audy Marchessault...
Torts needs more J A M...
Torts needs more JAM...
Torts needs more jam...


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06-24-2011, 10:08 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Amonte helped bring Larmer to the Rangers. No Larmer--probably no cup. He was an integral part of that team and in the semi-finals and finals Larmer settled Kovalev down. He was his conscience almost--yapping at him all the time about his positioning.

Weight as well went for Tikkanen--another integral part of that team and of the next few seasons--one of which the Rangers made another run to the semi-finals before injuries decimated us.

Karpovtsev was not a big loss. He was a bottom pairing defensemen with mobility issues although he had a hell of a shot.

Zubov hurt--that was an ill concieved deal. Ditto for Norstrom--in terms of value we got nothing but **** back.

Nedved--well was Nedved. Really good some years--mediocre some others and he could be soft.

Marchant?--good player but I mean what was the big deal moving him?
All good except that Amonte was traded for Matteau and Noonan. Larmer came in the deal for Turcotte and Patrick early in the season.

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06-24-2011, 10:57 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Amonte helped bring Larmer to the Rangers. No Larmer--probably no cup. He was an integral part of that team and in the semi-finals and finals Larmer settled Kovalev down. He was his conscience almost--yapping at him all the time about his positioning.

Weight as well went for Tikkanen--another integral part of that team and of the next few seasons--one of which the Rangers made another run to the semi-finals before injuries decimated us.

Karpovtsev was not a big loss. He was a bottom pairing defensemen with mobility issues although he had a hell of a shot.

Zubov hurt--that was an ill concieved deal. Ditto for Norstrom--in terms of value we got nothing but **** back.

Nedved--well was Nedved. Really good some years--mediocre some others and he could be soft.

Marchant?--good player but I mean what was the big deal moving him?

Amonte was not moved for Larmer - Turcotte and Patrick were. Amonte was dealt for Matteau and Noonan. Gartner was dealt for Anderson on the same day, and Anderson was so bad, he was relegated to 4th line duty. Weight was also better than Tikkanen by then, who was no more than a nice third liner by the time he arrived in New York. His main contribution was annoying the opposition. Think of Avery on his good day when he does not do stupid things.

Nobody knows what would have happened, but Weight, Amonte and Gartner were superior to Tikkanen, Matteau, Noonan and Anderson.

The post-94 trades just destroyed the team. It still had a good budding team of kids and under-30 vets: Leetch, Zubov, Beukeboom, Norstrom, Karpovtsev, Savard, Sundstrom, Graves, Kovalev, Nedved, etc. Plus, it still had guys like Messier. Instead, everything was lost in the attempt to get the Cup in 1995 or 1996.

I suspect that the reason we got away with going youth-for-age in 1994 was that the team was ready for multiple Cups and we reduced it to one. A team where Messier, Graves, Amonte, Weight, Kovalev and Gartner are the top-6, plus great depth with guys like Nemchinov and Turcotte, and where the top-4 were Leetch, Beukeboom, Zubov and Patrick, is going to go very far into the playoffs for many years. The talent level of that team was just tremendous. And we had Norstrom to replace Beukeboom when he aged.

In 1996 this failed because we had a nice team, but not a dominant one. All our top-6 guys that I listed for 1994 were all-stars sooner or later. Not so in 1996.

But what I really don't understand is how short the memories are. Just a few years ago, everyone wanted to throw up at the mere suggestion of youth-for-age. That was the biggest taboo on this and other Ranger forums. Suddenly, I see people calling for Slats to move our picks and prospects for help now.

No, thank you. Been there, done that, wound up not seeing a single playoff game win for 10 years from 1997 and 2007.

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06-24-2011, 11:07 AM
  #90
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But what I really don't understand is how short the memories are. Just a few years ago, everyone wanted to throw up at the mere suggestion of youth-for-age. That was the biggest taboo on this and other Ranger forums. Suddenly, I see people calling for Slats to move our picks and prospects for help now.

No, thank you. Been there, done that, wound up not seeing a single playoff game win for 10 years from 1997 and 2007.
That's because a few years ago, we had a team already filled with age and not a lot of youth. We were still rebuilding our prospect pool and that pool hadn't truly started affecting the NHL product on the ice yet. Now, we're in a completely different situation.

And for all your talk about how the team was set up for multiple Cups, let's not forget that many of those parts that were traded were important pieces in the 91-92 failure to reach the SCF... or even the ECF. It wasn't about youth for age, it was about attaining proven playoff performers. That's why they traded Gartner too... and that wasn't a youth for age deal. You can speculate all you want, but the truth is that the 94 moves WORKED and that's the only thing that's proven.

It's like the question I asked by Blackhawks after the 09-10 season. Was the Cup they won worth it knowing that a good part of that team was going to have to be dismantled due to Cap issues? The reply? Absolutely.

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06-24-2011, 12:23 PM
  #91
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It's amazing when you look back at the trades made at the deadline in 94 (has a team in first place ever made over it's roster so drastically as the Rangers did then?).

By any measure we became slower and less talented.

What we did become was grittier, more playoff savvy, and more prepared for a long, physical playoff run.

Did I look on with envy in future years as Amonte and Marchant had productive careers? Did I ever regret the trades? No, never. Would we have won the cup without the trades? Perhaps....we were the best team in the league. But you can't argue with results.

As for Larmer, who Messier called the smartest player he had ever played with, so much fell into place after his acquisition. Everybody slotted easier into their roles. It was a perfect example of a veteran lifting a team on the verge of success.

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06-24-2011, 12:43 PM
  #92
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That 1991-92 failed was to.be expected. Nearly all teams do. Detroit was laughed for failing multiple times, including losing to the terrible Sharks who made the playoffs only because of Irbe. Detroit was a first seed.

The next year, Quebec was w first seed and lost to us in the first round. Detroit lost again.

There are many such examples including the islanders failing in 1979 and Edmonton in 1983.
There was no need to over react to 1992. Take the 1992 team and add Zubov, Kovalev, Weight, and the maturation of Leetch, Graves, Amonte, etc., and the team is suddenly much, much better than the 1992 squad.

If it was not for 1940 chants, the Rangers probably would not have over reacted by dumping all youth in an attempt to win the Cup.

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06-24-2011, 12:56 PM
  #93
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I would have done the Larmer and the MacTavish (for Marchant) trades, but not Weight, Amonte and Gartner. Gartner for Anderson was particularly bad at the time.


Last edited by Beacon: 06-24-2011 at 02:34 PM.
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06-27-2011, 01:57 PM
  #94
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Is Jam considered our prospect? Or are people on Whale contracts excluded?

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06-27-2011, 02:06 PM
  #95
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I like jam

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06-27-2011, 02:07 PM
  #96
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Is Jam considered our prospect? Or are people on Whale contracts excluded?
We don't own his rights, but I'd guess that the Rangers were involved in getting him signed to an AHL contract. If he earns an NHL deal, the Rangers should have the inside track on signing him.

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06-27-2011, 02:16 PM
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We don't own his rights, but I'd guess that the Rangers were involved in getting him signed to an AHL contract. If he earns an NHL deal, the Rangers should have the inside track on signing him.
Don't be so sure. Many thought that when Jason Williams was signed to the pack.

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06-27-2011, 02:21 PM
  #98
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he was listed as under 'other invites' at the prospect camp, indicating he isn't rangers property and signed with the pack...although not really difinitive proof

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06-27-2011, 02:23 PM
  #99
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Don't be so sure. Many thought that when Jason Williams was signed to the pack.
Williams was signed to a Professional Try-Out (PTO) and the Rangers let him go. Not the same at all with Marchessault, a 20 year old who is SIGNED to a one year deal with the Whale, unlike Williams who was signed to a try-out mid-season.

Two different situations. I'd say we have the inside track on signing Marchessault to an ELC

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06-27-2011, 02:30 PM
  #100
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Williams was signed to a Professional Try-Out (PTO) and the Rangers let him go. Not the same at all with Marchessault, a 20 year old who is SIGNED to a one year deal with the Whale, unlike Williams who was signed to a try-out mid-season.

Two different situations. I'd say we have the inside track on signing Marchessault to an ELC
Didn't the Rangers also RELEASE him from his obligation so that he could go sign an NHL contract?

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