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are we becoming a contender if not already one?

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Old
06-25-2011, 08:31 PM
  #151
tinyzombies
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Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
As for the Flyers:

I think they managed to get (at least) fair value for Carter and Richards, to their credit.

I also think that their forwards will be truly fantastic... in a few years.

Problem is, by then, Pronger and Timonen will likely be in serious decline (or gone).


The Flyers' trades make perfect, glorious sense for a rebuilding team. But the Flyers aren't a rebuilding team. When you have 36 year old Pronger and Timonen as your Top 2 D, and you're one year removed from a Cup Final appearance, your attitude should definitely be "win now".

These trades don't really help the Flyers do that, imo. They'll likely make the Flyers much better up front within a few years, but will Pronger and Timonen have much left in the tank by then?


It's an interesting gamble that Holmgren is taking, but I don't think that I fully agree with it. If it was just the Carter deal, or just the Richards deal, I think it would be great. Free up some cap space, and strike a good balance between trying to win now while setting your team up for long-term success. But by doing both trades, they're taking a bit of a risk, imo.
Clearly those trades didn't happen on paper. There were problems on that team and looks like they were known league-wide. Schenn and a first rounder (they lucked into Couturier) is basically what they got. Simmonds is a third liner and always will be from what I've seen of him here in LA. That doesn't match 50 goals and a scrap iron centerman who does everything well.

I think we're a contender. I think we'll win the East this year, or at least compete with Pittsburgh. I expect Price to take another step, especially if Markov can stay in the lineup and they sign Hammer or someone else to bolster the #3 hole at a reduced price.

I don't like our third line though. Boston got around their problems by putting together offensive depth. PG needs to decided who to keep and stop using that third line as a testing line for kids. It's time to build a strong third line.

Otherwise, all the tools are there. We can contend and play with anyone. Our speed and defensive depth/systems are difficult to play against and then there's Price.

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Old
06-25-2011, 08:45 PM
  #152
Player 61
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Yes! we are very close, with a future of guys like Price and Subban, we undervalue sometimes what we have. We can become a dynasty again, with a few right moves!

We have the space I think we should try to trump up Toronto & get Brad Richards... It seems possible.

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Old
06-25-2011, 09:45 PM
  #153
subbanged
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I'm really beginning to like the way our roster is shaping up, as well at the same time our prospect depth is starting to look like rushing won't happen ever again. Which is great, for example I now expect all first rounders to be three years away from making the team, minimum, two junior one AHL

Cammy-Plek-xxxx
Pacioretty - Gomez - Gionta
Kostitsyn - Eller - Desharnais
Moen-xxxx-White
Darche

Extras Pyatt and Pouliot

Markov-Gorges
Subban-Gill
Emelin-Spacek
Weber

Extras or Knocking Nash and Diaz

Price

But then you have Bournival, Leblanc, Tinordi, Kristo and Beaulieu all fairly close (within three years) plus a few wildcards (palushaj, Avtsin etc.)

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Old
06-27-2011, 01:01 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
both JVR/Giroux, if they pick up where they left off in the post-season, are strong bets to put up career years, then they add Voracek (also poised for a step up), Simmonds (ditto... he looked awesome in the p/o), Bryzgalov (interesting to see how he handles playing for a favorite vs a cinderella squad, but if he maintains his level of play he's a huge upgrade) and finally Schenn, who is an unknown, but if he makes the team could quite easily be an impact producer given the talent he's surrounded with.
I believe in JVR but I think it might be a little early to expect him to dominate and have a career year. They are asking a lot out of these younger players and while I think they'll improve, I don't know if they are prime time ready. There are a whole bunch of 'ifs' here.

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i don't know how much of a "re-build" this would be. They moved 2 top-6 players, while adding 1 top 6 player, 2 top 9 players, and a top-tier goalie... given how balanced/deep their team already was, that's a net upgrade imo, not too mention the picks.
They moved their core players for picks and prospects to develop with the kids they already have. That looks like a rebuild to me. The Brizgalov signing though, was really strange. Good goalie, but he's 31 and that's too long a contract for a goalie who is good but not great.

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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
as bad as the kessel trade was, it's hard to knock the way Burke has re-tooled the laffs. Asset-wise, he's done a pretty good job of building up their organizational depth while slowly improving the roster talent.
It's not just Burke though... JFJ went out and gave away Rask for nothing, plus they've squandered picks for years. Burke has shown that he can be a good GM but I don't understand why he keeps giving away picks. Maybe he's learned his lesson.



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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
as i posted above, at this point (and things can obviously change after summer moves are done),
i think there are 5-6 quality teams that will be battling for the top 4 spots

Pitt, Wash, Bost, Philly, TB, NJ...

then another 3 teams that might challenge for the upper group if things go right

Mtl, Buffalo, NYR...

then another 2-3 teams that could turn a corner if things go very right
I don't know if Philly should be included in that group anymore and while I agree that NJ should be better, they're still a bit of a wildcard too. The East is just such a mess now.

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Old
06-27-2011, 01:11 PM
  #155
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I think that the Habs could have a defense worthy of going deep this year.

They have a #1 in the top ten in the league.

Need:
They need a backup goaltender that can play 20 games, and win 12 of them.

Upfront, they need two things.... size down the middle and a fourth line that hurts to play against.

They also need some relief from Hamiliton. I do not see a player on last years roster that is going to make a difference, on the NHL level, on an every game basis in the next two years.

So, easier said then done.

But.... you never know. That is why they play the season instead of just giving the Cup to a favorite on day one.

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06-27-2011, 01:15 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Habs23 View Post
Yes! we are very close, with a future of guys like Price and Subban, we undervalue sometimes what we have. We can become a dynasty again, with a few right moves!
You said it. Because with no right move, I think we'll be battling for 8th again. We'll know on july 2nd if we'll be contender this year.

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06-27-2011, 01:41 PM
  #157
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dunno, but according to this thread
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=935409&page=1
many posters simply cannot understand why the habs do well. and some have us either missing the playoffs or end last in our division (lawl)

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06-27-2011, 02:45 PM
  #158
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dunno, but according to this thread
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=935409&page=1
many posters simply cannot understand why the habs do well. and some have us either missing the playoffs or end last in our division (lawl)
year after year, since the lockout...must have us confused with the Leafs...

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06-27-2011, 03:02 PM
  #159
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Regarding Philly, I'm in the camp that thinks they're actually going to be a better team this year. Being a better team isn't all about what's on paper. It's about how the team is in terms of balance and overall.

It relies heavily on Bryz who is one of my fave goalies, I think he'll do just fine. With the goalie improvement and some good players and prospects for the future I think they'll be fine. Simmonds is a perfect Phillidelphia type of player. Schenn will likely one day be awesome. Same with Couturier. I think they're banking on Pronger playing well for at least another few seasons.

Philly tried the whole "win it now" strategy and tried trading for players to put them over the top. Truth is it didn't work and part of the reason was they didn't have the goaltending to put them over the top when times of defensive injuries died occur. When you have a guy like Price he'll help you steal games even with guys like Markov injured. I think that Bobrovsky could have done the same had they given him a little more confidence and time. It's a shame really, Philly's goalie was in their back yard all along imo. I still think they'll be a good team though.

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06-27-2011, 03:17 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
year after year, since the lockout...must have us confused with the Leafs...
The thing I tend to notice is that both Boston and Toronto fanbases tend to view Montreal as a peer to their team. But since Boston is good and Toronto bad, Bruins fans see the cohesive team play and underlying two-way ability while Leaf fans think its all smoke and mirrors with goaltending.

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06-27-2011, 03:30 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Regarding Philly, I'm in the camp that thinks they're actually going to be a better team this year. Being a better team isn't all about what's on paper. It's about how the team is in terms of balance and overall.

It relies heavily on Bryz who is one of my fave goalies, I think he'll do just fine. With the goalie improvement and some good players and prospects for the future I think they'll be fine. Simmonds is a perfect Phillidelphia type of player. Schenn will likely one day be awesome. Same with Couturier. I think they're banking on Pronger playing well for at least another few seasons.

Philly tried the whole "win it now" strategy and tried trading for players to put them over the top. Truth is it didn't work and part of the reason was they didn't have the goaltending to put them over the top when times of defensive injuries died occur. When you have a guy like Price he'll help you steal games even with guys like Markov injured. I think that Bobrovsky could have done the same had they given him a little more confidence and time. It's a shame really, Philly's goalie was in their back yard all along imo. I still think they'll be a good team though.
I think Philly will be better down the line. Not so sure if they'll necessarily be better starting next year.
Bryzgalov is great, you're right, but Bobrovsky had a great rookie year as well (never understood why Laviolette took him out in the POs, that was completely dumb). So, the netminding won't have changed a whole lot from last season imo. Maybe in the POs, but not the regular season. Maybe the tandem will be better, but Carter and Richards added 59goals and 132pts to that offense.
Giroux had a career year, but I don't think he can surpass his total by a whole lot. He seems to be about 1pt/gp type of player. JVR is counted on to bring more offensive touch. He won't be limited to 14min of ice time anymore, so he'll likely rack up more points. Schenn is a question mark. Simmonds is an interesting prospect, but I think 30ish pts is likely to be his total again. Voracek should replace Leino's contribution as it doesn't appear he'll be re-signed. Both Simmonds and Voracek need to be re-signed and Philly only has about 6M of wiggle room. But that would bring their roster number to 21 with only 6D under contract.
Carcillo, Zherdev, Leino, O'Donnell, Boucher and Boynton are likely out unless something happens. It'll be interesting to see how much Simmonds and Voracek get. They had 820K and 1.2M respectively. You'd assume those numbers will go up quite a bit.

So, they have a lot of young players, and that usually comes with question marks, even if they have solid ones. I think in 2-3years, there's no doubt about how strong they'll be. But next year, they could just as easily fall back in a middle pack as they could be one of the strongest.
I personally think they'll fall back in around #6-8 position but without a doubt should make the POs.

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06-27-2011, 03:42 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The thing I tend to notice is that both Boston and Toronto fanbases tend to view Montreal as a peer to their team. But since Boston is good and Toronto bad, Bruins fans see the cohesive team play and underlying two-way ability while Leaf fans think its all smoke and mirrors with goaltending.
Edit: wrong thread... damned tab browsing...

To actually contribute something, it really depends on what the Habs and Bruins do with their remaining cap room, but there's a not-bad chance the Habs end up winning the division next season if the team shooting percentage regresses toward the mean (as it has done with every other aberration shooting team since the lockout) and they add a 3rd-line winger or two to provide depth in case of injury.

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06-27-2011, 03:44 PM
  #163
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At $5 million, If Spacek's cap-hit disapears the Habs would have $12 million to spend on a backup goalie, Gorges, and anything else. Even with Spacek there's still room to sign one good 3rd-line forward to put with Eller.
I think you quoted me in the wrong thread.

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06-27-2011, 04:01 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Roke View Post
To actually contribute something, it really depends on what the Habs and Bruins do with their remaining cap room, but there's a not-bad chance the Habs end up winning the division next season if the team shooting percentage regresses toward the mean (as it has done with every other aberration shooting team since the lockout) and they add a 3rd-line winger or two to provide depth in case of injury.
Especially if Boston's own percentages regress towards the mean; they were the highest-PDO club in the league.

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06-27-2011, 05:52 PM
  #165
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You still haven't figured out that Plekanec is our first line center? He had 57pts this year (last year he had 70 btw). Just so you know, the Bruins top scorer had 62pts.

The 38pts from Gomez was also his worst career year. Expecting things to remain as bad for him isn't realistic.

Which unproven guys do we have on D? Subban? No. Gill? No. Markov? No. Gorges? No. Spacek? No. Weber? Perhaps, but he's likely to start as the 7th D anyways and he's progressed nicely over the past season. Emelin? Ya, he's the only one, and there's a very real possibility that he'll be playing in Russia instead of the NHL. If he doesn't, that means things are going well for him here, so no worries.
There's also a possibility that Gauthier will bring in another D from the open market.
So, I wouldn't say the D is going to have a couple young unproven guys. We could end up having one of the best defensive team in the East next year, especially if Price plays as well as he did last season.

Our offense needs to improve, and I'm sure Gauthier will bring in at least one new signing for the top 6. With MaxPac starting the year here, with DD-Eller-AK possibly as a third line, we could end up having a very solid offense as well.


Really, the only question mark about our team is health related. Other than that, there's no reason to doubt our potential.



There's always idiots like Marinaro that whine about how Eller should have played in the AHL simply because they're not seeing points on the stat sheets after the games.
But I was very impressed by Eller as the season progressed and even in the POs. I never knew he was so good at protecting the puck. I knew he had a good offensive flare, nice hands and not a pushover, but never realized how well he protects the puck.
His defensive game also improved over the season.
I'm very eager to see him play next year, hopefully his injury will not have affected his training so much.
I'm really hoping Martin puts him and AK together as I felt they had good chemistry along side one another. Throw DD between those two big guys and I can see them dominate their opposition on most nights.
If he nets 41 points, will that dismiss all the doubts about him? My friend, he has something to prove and if he can't rack up at least 60 he's stealing Molson's money.

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06-27-2011, 05:56 PM
  #166
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We have cap room and holes on the roster. IF we fill those holes with better (and bigger) players than the guys that filled them last year (a winger to play top six and free up AK to play with Eller, for instance), we'll be a contender if healthy. With the current roster, we look like a regular season team. We're a couple or even a few fairly key pieces short. Unfortunately the org depth is shallow too.

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06-27-2011, 07:02 PM
  #167
Miller Time
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year after year, since the lockout...must have us confused with the Leafs...
2005-2006- 7th (1 win/1 otl ahead of the 9th & 10th place teams)
2006-2007- Missed the playoffs
2007-2008- won the conference!
2008-2009- 8th (finished tied for 8th advancing to playoffs on direct match-up result)
2009-2010- 8th (made the playoffs on the final weekend thanks to losses by other teams
2010-2011- 6th


since the lock-out, we've only missed the playoffs 1x, but on 3 other occasions we made the playoffs on the last day(s) of the season...

only twice since the lockout did we "comfortably" make the playoffs, so is it really that exaggerated that other hockey fans have considered our team a "bubble" playoff team most years?

I'd say it's proven to be a failry accurate description more often than not.




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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I believe in JVR but I think it might be a little early to expect him to dominate and have a career year. They are asking a lot out of these younger players and while I think they'll improve, I don't know if they are prime time ready. There are a whole bunch of 'ifs' here.
my bad, I meant "career-year" in the sense of his best yet, not that he will have the best season of his career...

coming off of a 20g, 40pt season (where he added 7g/11games in the playoffs), and looking at the way he was playing to close out the season, I think JVR (if healthy), could quite realistically put up a 30g/60pt season this year, putting him in the range of what Carter was giving them the past 2 seasons.

filling Richards hole will be tougher, given how much he brought to the table in all parts of the game, but btw Simmonds/Voracek/bryzgalov, i won't be surprised if they end up with a net gain, to say nothing of what Schenn may add and even potentially Coutourier (especially since he's the type of rookie who could convieavably come in and play a solid bottom-6 role from day one).

definitely a lot of "if's", but are they any bigger than the "if" the Flyers have been dealing with for years in between the pipes?


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
They moved their core players for picks and prospects to develop with the kids they already have. That looks like a rebuild to me. The Brizgalov signing though, was really strange. Good goalie, but he's 31 and that's too long a contract for a goalie who is good but not great.
definitely agree that the term they gave Bryzgalov is a bit puzzling, and strikes me as a bit of a reactionary move (the pain of their recent goaltending situation pushing them to an opposite extreme... a gm going from "i don't need a bonafide #1" to changing the entire dynamic of his contending team in order to lock one up for almost a decade is a pretty rash change of direction, no doubt).

semantics to argue the real definition of "re-build", I'd speculate that Holmgren fully believes that his team, today, is as able to/better equipped to contend than they were last week. getting a windfall of picks/prospects that likely won't contribute immediately is icing on the cake for them imo.


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It's not just Burke though... JFJ went out and gave away Rask for nothing, plus they've squandered picks for years. Burke has shown that he can be a good GM but I don't understand why he keeps giving away picks. Maybe he's learned his lesson.
no doubt, leafs management is one of the few around the league that has actually been worse at managing assets than the habs were the past decade...

but Burke has also made quite a few moves to add both quality/depth to his roster while moving out players that either they didn't think highly enough off, or that they felt they could get more from by moving.

it seems like almost every time the habs make a move, it's the opposite. We're buying high and selling low, at least when we aren't giving up assets for nothing.

even with the Kessel move, I think if you were to look at the Habs moves since Burke took over and compared, it would be painfully clear that they are building up their talent base while we are thinning it...

"luckily" we have two players (Price/Subban), who are of the kind of quality that they can help a team disguise otherwise glaring roster/organization flaws.




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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't know if Philly should be included in that group anymore and while I agree that NJ should be better, they're still a bit of a wildcard too. The East is just such a mess now.
and that's before seeing what happens in July... a few big moves could certainly help shift some of that balance of power.

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06-27-2011, 10:40 PM
  #168
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year after year, since the lockout...must have us confused with the Leafs...
We've been a bubble team most of the time usually finishing with 93 points. Can't really blame folks for prognosticating that we'd be a bubble team most of the time because that's exactly what we've been.
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The thing I tend to notice is that both Boston and Toronto fanbases tend to view Montreal as a peer to their team. But since Boston is good and Toronto bad, Bruins fans see the cohesive team play and underlying two-way ability while Leaf fans think its all smoke and mirrors with goaltending.
And on many occassions, they'd be right. We've had some of the best goaltending in the league for years and most of the time we've finished around 8th place.
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my bad, I meant "career-year" in the sense of his best yet, not that he will have the best season of his career...

coming off of a 20g, 40pt season (where he added 7g/11games in the playoffs), and looking at the way he was playing to close out the season, I think JVR (if healthy), could quite realistically put up a 30g/60pt season this year, putting him in the range of what Carter was giving them the past 2 seasons.

filling Richards hole will be tougher, given how much he brought to the table in all parts of the game, but btw Simmonds/Voracek/bryzgalov, i won't be surprised if they end up with a net gain, to say nothing of what Schenn may add and even potentially Coutourier (especially since he's the type of rookie who could convieavably come in and play a solid bottom-6 role from day one).

definitely a lot of "if's", but are they any bigger than the "if" the Flyers have been dealing with for years in between the pipes?
I think it's the same sort of situation with us. We have a lot of kids in our lineup who we're really hoping can step up. Some folks here have Subban winning the Norris and MaxPac becoming the next Brendan Shanahan this year.

It could happen of course but it could go the other way. I didn't think of Philly as a true cup contender before and I don't think of them as a contender now. But I felt fairly confident that they'd finish among the top 4 clubs in the East and now I'm just not so sure about it.

You could be right though, they might be better as soon as this year. Personally, I think they're going to be absolutely amazing within a couple of years and they've done exactly what I've been arguing we should do for a long time now so if it happens it's going to really piss me off. Tons of elite prospects/young players in that organization now.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
definitely agree that the term they gave Bryzgalov is a bit puzzling, and strikes me as a bit of a reactionary move (the pain of their recent goaltending situation pushing them to an opposite extreme... a gm going from "i don't need a bonafide #1" to changing the entire dynamic of his contending team in order to lock one up for almost a decade is a pretty rash change of direction, no doubt).
Signing Bryzgalov is okay, but 9 years just made no sense to me. Why not go for a guy like Rask?
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
semantics to argue the real definition of "re-build", I'd speculate that Holmgren fully believes that his team, today, is as able to/better equipped to contend than they were last week. getting a windfall of picks/prospects that likely won't contribute immediately is icing on the cake for them imo.
I see it as a classic rebuild. They didn't believe in their core and dealt for picks and prospects to go along with their young guys like Giroux and JVR. And I think it will pay off for them in the long run as long as some of those stupid (Briere, Bryzgalov) contracts don't get in the way
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
no doubt, leafs management is one of the few around the league that has actually been worse at managing assets than the habs were the past decade...

but Burke has also made quite a few moves to add both quality/depth to his roster while moving out players that either they didn't think highly enough off, or that they felt they could get more from by moving.

it seems like almost every time the habs make a move, it's the opposite. We're buying high and selling low, at least when we aren't giving up assets for nothing.

even with the Kessel move, I think if you were to look at the Habs moves since Burke took over and compared, it would be painfully clear that they are building up their talent base while we are thinning it...

"luckily" we have two players (Price/Subban), who are of the kind of quality that they can help a team disguise otherwise glaring roster/organization flaws.
Burke has shown that he can be a good GM. I just think he should stick with building through the draft because he's not likely to sign both Niedermayer, Selanne and Pronger anytime soon. He fluked out with luck on those deals and it's almost like he thinks he'll be able to do it again.

He'd be better off doing what he did in Vancouver and mastermind how to get top picks that he can build around like the Sedins.

There's been an improvement there (somewhat) but he gave up Hamilton and Seguin... brutal, brutal move even if it was for a young sniper. Those kinds of moves absolutely kill franchises. And he's lucky they're in TO because if he was in an expansion market the fans would've left long ago.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
and that's before seeing what happens in July... a few big moves could certainly help shift some of that balance of power.
I guess we'll see on this. Over the next few years I think the East will definitely get stronger. Philly and Boston have incredible youth to build with and I think they'll be super scary. TB has already jumped to the next level. Pittsburgh and Washington's cores are still young. It's going to be a lot tougher in the next few seasons than it has been in the past.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 06-27-2011 at 10:55 PM.
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Old
06-28-2011, 12:44 AM
  #169
Talks to Goalposts
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We've been a bubble team most of the time usually finishing with 93 points. Can't really blame folks for prognosticating that we'd be a bubble team most of the time because that's exactly what we've been.

And on many occassions, they'd be right. We've had some of the best goaltending in the league for years and most of the time we've finished around 8th place.
Yes, but that a far bit better than the Leafs have been during the same period. Hence how they really shouldn't be considered the Habs' peers. The most comparable franchises for Montreal in the post-lockout years are Buffalo and NYR, although Montreal has been better than both in the last 4, while typically close but somewhat behind Boston during that time frame. Hence Montreal is much more of a peer competitor to Boston than they are to the Leafs.


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You could be right though, they might be better as soon as this year. Personally, I think they're going to be absolutely amazing within a couple of years and they've done exactly what I've been arguing we should do for a long time now so if it happens it's going to really piss me off. Tons of elite prospects/young players in that organization now.

Signing Bryzgalov is okay, but 9 years just made no sense to me. Why not go for a guy like Rask?

I see it as a classic rebuild. They didn't believe in their core and dealt for picks and prospects to go along with their young guys like Giroux and JVR. And I think it will pay off for them in the long run as long as some of those stupid (Briere, Bryzgalov) contracts don't get in the way
They had a team model that made them consistantly one of the top teams in the East and in striking distance of the Cup. They traded that for hopes and dreams. Their forward group is far worse then it was before as Richards, Carter and Giroux were the core pieces which the other guys complemented. Briere can't pick up the slack and maintain his production, he was getting largely offensive zone starts (53.1% to Richards 46.8) against 3rd and 4th lines. He also got the most even strength ice time among Philadelphia forwards, so don't think he'll get more points by playing more either. Schenn is a rookie who needs to be sheltered so the defensively suspect Briere has to face top lines.

Philadelphia was a scary offensive team because they had so many strong forwards that they were a the hardest team in the league to get favourable line matchups against. It'll probably be at least two years of developement time for Schenn and Couturier before they can do that again. Once that happens they have to deal with their defensive situation. Frankly I think they've bought themselves years as a 5-9 bubble team with their moves.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Burke has shown that he can be a good GM. I just think he should stick with building through the draft because he's not likely to sign both Niedermayer, Selanne and Pronger anytime soon. He fluked out with luck on those deals and it's almost like he thinks he'll be able to do it again.

He'd be better off doing what he did in Vancouver and mastermind how to get top picks that he can build around like the Sedins.

There's been an improvement there (somewhat) but he gave up Hamilton and Seguin... brutal, brutal move even if it was for a young sniper. Those kinds of moves absolutely kill franchises. And he's lucky they're in TO because if he was in an expansion market the fans would've left long ago.
More than anything else Burke is an aggressive GM. This makes him popular among certain fans and media members but it results in as many blunders (Kessel) as coups (Sedins).

Its to be expected that Toronto will be accumulating assets on aggregate while Montreal spends them. One is rebuild/retooling while another is trying to compete. But compare the state of the two franchises. Montreal consistantly makes the playoffs while Toronto consistently doesn't. Compare the young players on favorable contracts in the organization it comes out about equal, if not in favor of Montreal. Personally, I'd take

Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Yemelin, Weber

over

Reimer, Schenn, Kulemin, Kadri, Colburne, Gunnerson, Aulie

And like Beauleiu over Percy and Biggs.

The present and future currently favours Montreal over Toronto IMO.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I guess we'll see on this. Over the next few years I think the East will definitely get stronger. Philly and Boston have incredible youth to build with and I think they'll be super scary. TB has already jumped to the next level. Pittsburgh and Washington's cores are still young. It's going to be a lot tougher in the next few seasons than it has been in the past.
I see Washington's famous team offense evolving into a 1 line hockey team much like Ottawa and Tampa before them as Laich Flechmann and Knuble leave.

I've already noted what I think of Philadelphia.

I see Tampa and Pittsburg as the elite Eastern teams going forward and no reason Montreal can't position themselves to inherit New Jersey's position as the pre-eminent veteran defensive team in the East. The key pieces in an elite goaltender (Price), 2 top-end all situations defensemen (Subban and Markov), and a high level two-way forward (Plekanec) are there and can be built on.

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06-28-2011, 04:21 AM
  #170
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Too bad you didn't knock off Boston. I think you would have been an easier match-up for a team like Vancouver.

Montreal is IMO is a serious contender. Have as much depth as anyone - especially considering what you have in Hamilton,

Montreal might well be the team to bring the Cup back to Canada. But everything is going to go thru Boston.

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06-28-2011, 09:37 AM
  #171
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Yes, but that a far bit better than the Leafs have been during the same period. Hence how they really shouldn't be considered the Habs' peers. The most comparable franchises for Montreal in the post-lockout years are Buffalo and NYR, although Montreal has been better than both in the last 4, while typically close but somewhat behind Boston during that time frame. Hence Montreal is much more of a peer competitor to Boston than they are to the Leafs.
I think for the last couple of years, folks have expected Toronto to be terrible and they've been right. Before that though, they were among the bubble teams right there with us, but unlike us somehow found themselves on the outside.

05-06: 93 pts. We finished 3 points ahead of the Leafs and made the postseason.
06-07: 90 pts. We lost to the Leafs on last day of season and missed the playoffs. They barely missed too.
07-08: We crushed them by 20 points and a huge season. This is where the Leafs dropped off the face of the earth and that was the end of them.

I think for the past few years, we've been seen as a bubble team whereas they've been seen as a club that was going to miss. Before that though, it was a dead heat between us as we were both bubble clubs. We've stayed a bubble club and they've dropped off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
They had a team model that made them consistantly one of the top teams in the East and in striking distance of the Cup. They traded that for hopes and dreams. Their forward group is far worse then it was before as Richards, Carter and Giroux were the core pieces which the other guys complemented. Briere can't pick up the slack and maintain his production, he was getting largely offensive zone starts (53.1% to Richards 46.8) against 3rd and 4th lines. He also got the most even strength ice time among Philadelphia forwards, so don't think he'll get more points by playing more either. Schenn is a rookie who needs to be sheltered so the defensively suspect Briere has to face top lines.

Philadelphia was a scary offensive team because they had so many strong forwards that they were a the hardest team in the league to get favourable line matchups against. It'll probably be at least two years of developement time for Schenn and Couturier before they can do that again. Once that happens they have to deal with their defensive situation. Frankly I think they've bought themselves years as a 5-9 bubble team with their moves.
I think they're going to be awesome. The problem isn't the rebuilding moves, the problem is going to be the stupid FA contracts that they gave to guys like Brizgalov and Briere. Schenn, Giroux, JVR... that alone is great to work with and they've got more elite young players to work with.

I agree that they may take a year or two to sort themselves out but I think they'll be a decent to good team in the short term but they'll be great in the long term.

Millertime could be dead on right though because that's the thing about young talent, it can sometimes improve you right away. Look at what Subban and Price have done for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
More than anything else Burke is an aggressive GM. This makes him popular among certain fans and media members but it results in as many blunders (Kessel) as coups (Sedins).

Its to be expected that Toronto will be accumulating assets on aggregate while Montreal spends them. One is rebuild/retooling while another is trying to compete. But compare the state of the two franchises. Montreal consistantly makes the playoffs while Toronto consistently doesn't. Compare the young players on favorable contracts in the organization it comes out about equal, if not in favor of Montreal. Personally, I'd take

Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Yemelin, Weber

over

Reimer, Schenn, Kulemin, Kadri, Colburne, Gunnerson, Aulie

And like Beauleiu over Percy and Biggs.

The present and future currently favours Montreal over Toronto IMO.
I totally agree with you we are in better shape. But that might not have been the case had the guy just been smart and stuck with his picks. I don't understand why he chose the path that he did.

Like I said, he should learn from his success in Vancouver where he built a legit contender from scratch, rather than what he did in Anaheim because I don't think that can be repeated. He got extremely lucky there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I see Washington's famous team offense evolving into a 1 line hockey team much like Ottawa and Tampa before them as Laich Flechmann and Knuble leave.

I've already noted what I think of Philadelphia.

I see Tampa and Pittsburg as the elite Eastern teams going forward and no reason Montreal can't position themselves to inherit New Jersey's position as the pre-eminent veteran defensive team in the East. The key pieces in an elite goaltender (Price), 2 top-end all situations defensemen (Subban and Markov), and a high level two-way forward (Plekanec) are there and can be built on.
I think we can move up in the East this year, but it's more of a result of other clubs sabotaging themselves than us improving.

Pittsburgh has injury issues to two of the biggest stars in the league. Washington is having an identity crisis and not playing to their strengths. Philly we just covered. And Boston is a good but not great team right now (in my opinion) that could improve greatly if Seguin takes it to the next level. They've also got a goaltender surplus that they could leverage for additional help. NJ should be better and so should TB but like I said, the East is a disaster for 2011-2012. So sure, we could finish very high in the Conference if things go right for us and poorly for the other clubs. It's a complete mess.

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