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too many defenseman means somethings gotta give

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Old
06-28-2011, 12:59 AM
  #51
hpNYR
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I don't agree with the "none of the D-MEN we have should be dealt"

There are a few who I wouldn't deal for sure..Like a Staal, Mcdonagh, Girardi, and even a Sauer who's as steady as they come on the back end. Erixon is someone we all would like to see before we jump to conclusions. We just got him-- but throw him in that list too.

However, to sit here and pass up an opportunity to aquire much needed secondary scoring ( legit scoring) say a Havlat like someone brought up by not giving up a Del Zotto or Valentenko in a package is downright bad for your team currently constructed. You deal from your strengths to address your weaknesses. We need more scoring outside of Gaborik and a guy like Havlat would do that for us. Havlat's just an example though.

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06-28-2011, 01:05 AM
  #52
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People also need to take into account that McD and/or Sauer could possibly have sophomore slumps. Don't think it will happen, but you can't guarantee against it.

McIlrath and Pashnin are not ready. We have two proven defensemen: Staal and Girardi. Yeah, let's start trading away defensemen.

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06-28-2011, 01:14 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
I don't agree with the "none of the D-MEN we have should be dealt"

There are a few who I wouldn't deal for sure..Like a Staal, Mcdonagh, Girardi, and even a Sauer who's as steady as they come on the back end. Erixon is someone we all would like to see before we jump to conclusions. We just got him-- but throw him in that list too.

However, to sit here and pass up an opportunity to aquire much needed secondary scoring ( legit scoring) say a Havlat like someone brought up by not giving up a Del Zotto or Valentenko in a package is downright bad for your team currently constructed. You deal from your strengths to address your weaknesses. We need more scoring outside of Gaborik and a guy like Havlat would do that for us. Havlat's just an example though.
Havlat? Just what we need.... another injury prone goal-scorer.

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06-28-2011, 01:16 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Blazephr View Post
Havlat? Just what we need.... another injury prone goal-scorer.
Havlat has missed all of 14 games in the last 3 seasons.

He's also much more of a playmaker than a goal scorer.

I, personally, love the guy, and would be ecstatic if Sather could get him through a trade. The Rangers forward depth, with Richards, would be fantastic.

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06-28-2011, 01:30 AM
  #55
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lets be a little realistic.....
Don't be such a buzz kill!!

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06-28-2011, 01:34 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
People also need to take into account that McD and/or Sauer could possibly have sophomore slumps. Don't think it will happen, but you can't guarantee against it.

McIlrath and Pashnin are not ready. We have two proven defensemen: Staal and Girardi. Yeah, let's start trading away defensemen.
We finally have what is beginning to look like a surplus in one part of our depth chart....and the first thing people want to start doing is dealing them away. The shear madness of Rangers fans is so entertaining.

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06-28-2011, 01:37 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Blazephr View Post
Havlat? Just what we need.... another injury prone goal-scorer.
That's played out when it comes to Havlat.

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06-28-2011, 01:41 AM
  #58
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Talk about overvaluing your own players.

Between Kundratek, Valentenko and Pashnin, we'll be lucky if ONE of them becomes a regular #6 NHL defenseman. Heck, I honestly doubt ANY of them even become regular #7s and am positive that not all three of them will.

We have:

Staal and Girardi (pretty much vets now and cemented in the lineup)

McD, Sauer and Del Zotto (all have shown they can play in the NHL with promising upside - MDZ struggled last year, and hopefully bounces right back this year - likewise, one of McD/Sauer could struggle this year, but all three have proven they're promising NHL caliber d-men)

McIlrath and Erixon (neither has played in the NHL yet, but both were first rounders and both should be good NHL d-men - Erixon may be ready to see some time this year, but neither is a sure thing yet)

Everyone else (lucky to become a regular NHL players)

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06-28-2011, 01:44 AM
  #59
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I really am surprised by how quickly most fans turn on players. Del Zotto was the poster child for the first half of his rookie season. He's barely 21, 4 days in, and is expected to succeed right off of the bat at the NHL level?

I mean come on guys. All players grow at their own pace, and for defensemen it is harder for them to become decent NHL players until later on in their careers. Sauer was a prospect who many gave up on 2 years before he even broke into the NHL. Even during his short stints up before last year he didnt look like half the player he became. It took him what, 3-4 years to become who he was last year, and that's without a year and a half of previous NHL experience.

For those giving up on Del Zotto, I think you are all being ridiculously impatient. To be quite honest I think he's a player who will be absolutely vital for our future success. Defensively he has a ways to go, offensively he has to learn consistency and decision making, but once he gets it all to click, he'll become really good. Under no circumstance would I trade him yet until we see how progresses these next few years.

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06-28-2011, 01:45 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
I don't agree with the "none of the D-MEN we have should be dealt"

There are a few who I wouldn't deal for sure..Like a Staal, Mcdonagh, Girardi, and even a Sauer who's as steady as they come on the back end. Erixon is someone we all would like to see before we jump to conclusions. We just got him-- but throw him in that list too.

However, to sit here and pass up an opportunity to aquire much needed secondary scoring ( legit scoring) say a Havlat like someone brought up by not giving up a Del Zotto or Valentenko in a package is downright bad for your team currently constructed. You deal from your strengths to address your weaknesses. We need more scoring outside of Gaborik and a guy like Havlat would do that for us. Havlat's just an example though.
Realizing that Havlat is "just an example," he's a right wing. If we're adding some secondary scoring, which IMO is not the problem, the problem is lack of primary scoring (we have no top line), we need to do it at the right position, which is either left wing or center. Right wing is pretty set in stone as far as the top 6 goes, and there's a lot of promise in the system in Christian Thomas and MZA. Prust has one of the bottom 6 spots locked too

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06-28-2011, 01:49 AM
  #61
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If we were to trade Sauer or McDonagh, it would be a mistake. I think you don't trade Staal unless Bobby Ryan is coming back, and even then a lot of people on this board don't like that deal. Girardi is probably expendable, but not right now. Erixon is our top prospect, over Kreider, not even close IMO. He's the real deal. And we just acquired him, for very cheap. All those other guys, their value is low. Remember how Nik Filatov only yielded a third rounder on draft day? I don't see someone like Del Zotto, and certainly some big question marks like Pashnin, Vtank or Kundtratek yielding anything significant at all. So those guys need to develop, if they pan out as good players we can consider flipping them. If not, oh well, the risk of keeping them outweighs trading them away for 4th round picks right now.

Also, McIlrath was a first rounder just a year ago. It'd be poor asset management if we dealt him now. We need to hope he turns things around (it's very early in this stage of his progression) and hope he is at the least a really tough 3rd pair guy.

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06-28-2011, 01:54 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Realizing that Havlat is "just an example," he's a right wing. If we're adding some secondary scoring, which IMO is not the problem, the problem is lack of primary scoring (we have no top line), we need to do it at the right position, which is either left wing or center. Right wing is pretty set in stone as far as the top 6 goes, and there's a lot of promise in the system in Christian Thomas and MZA. Prust has one of the bottom 6 spots locked too
I wrote that with already locking in Richards in our top 6 with Gaborik. I would like our offense to revolve around 3 guys who can take over games...

Richards, Gaborik, and who that mystery third guy is the ? mark.

Make no mistake -- it's a HUGE mistake for anyone to lock in Richards as a Ranger. These are human beings who are controlling their own faith. We don't know what may come up come July 1st. Toronto is REALLY desperate for a center and Buffalo ownership is taking things into their own hands by persuading players to go to Buffalo. It might not be so easy so I hope you all don't set yourself up for dissapointment.

Sure Richards went on vacation with Avery -- but word is he went on vacation with Phaneuf too.

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06-28-2011, 01:54 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Realizing that Havlat is "just an example," he's a right wing. If we're adding some secondary scoring, which IMO is not the problem, the problem is lack of primary scoring (we have no top line), we need to do it at the right position, which is either left wing or center. Right wing is pretty set in stone as far as the top 6 goes, and there's a lot of promise in the system in Christian Thomas and MZA. Prust has one of the bottom 6 spots locked too
not sure havlat is the right guy, but he can play LW too...in addition to richards, i'd like to add a top 6 lw. either so that guy can complete the top line. or you can put dubi on the top line and have that guy replace dubi on the 2nd line.

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06-28-2011, 01:57 AM
  #64
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Havlat has missed all of 14 games in the last 3 seasons.

He's also much more of a playmaker than a goal scorer.

I, personally, love the guy, and would be ecstatic if Sather could get him through a trade. The Rangers forward depth, with Richards, would be fantastic.
agreed, i would not be at all opposed to trading for Havlat, if the asking price wasnt exorbitant.

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06-28-2011, 01:58 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
If we were to trade Sauer or McDonagh, it would be a mistake. I think you don't trade Staal unless Bobby Ryan is coming back, and even then a lot of people on this board don't like that deal. Girardi is probably expendable, but not right now. Erixon is our top prospect, over Kreider, not even close IMO. He's the real deal. And we just acquired him, for very cheap. All those other guys, their value is low. Remember how Nik Filatov only yielded a third rounder on draft day? I don't see someone like Del Zotto, and certainly some big question marks like Pashnin, Vtank or Kundtratek yielding anything significant at all. So those guys need to develop, if they pan out as good players we can consider flipping them. If not, oh well, the risk of keeping them outweighs trading them away for 4th round picks right now.

Also, McIlrath was a first rounder just a year ago. It'd be poor asset management if we dealt him now. We need to hope he turns things around (it's very early in this stage of his progression) and hope he is at the least a really tough 3rd pair guy.
Del Zotto, who is a little younger than Filatov, put up 37 points in 80 games as a 19 year old and has already scored 48 points in the NHL. He's a defenseman, and he just turned 21. Filatov, also 21, has failed to stick with his team for more than 23 games in any NHL season so far, has only 13 NHL points, and might be an attitude problem/flight risk to Russia. Del Zotto's value is significantly higher. As others have noted, d-men take longer to develop. GMs know this as well and Del Zotto has proven he can play in the NHL. Filatov hasn't even proven he WILL play in the NHL. I don't agree that Erixon is our #1 prospect either, but otherwise I agree that trading any of them (this does not apply to Vtank, Kundratek, Pashnin) in anything other than a package deal that brings back a significant asset would be pointless.

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06-28-2011, 02:00 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
I wrote that with already locking in Richards in our top 6 with Gaborik. I would like our offense to revolve around 3 guys who can take over games...

Richards, Gaborik, and who that mystery third guy is the ? mark.

Make no mistake -- it's a HUGE mistake for anyone to lock in Richards as a Ranger. These are human beings who are controlling their own faith. We don't know what may come up come July 1st. Toronto is REALLY desperate for a center and Buffalo ownership is taking things into their own hands by persuading players to go to Buffalo. It might not be so easy so I hope you all don't set yourself up for dissapointment.

Sure Richards went on vacation with Avery -- but word is he went on vacation with he gtPhaneuf too.
Your third guy has to be someone that steps up from the system. We have Dubinsky, Callahan, Stepan, Kreider, Anisimov, Christian Thomas, MZA, etc.

If we're going to continue to build a team the right way, you need to wait for one of those players to become that third guy.

And i'm not sure why you went on your little Richards tangent quoting my post, it's as if you were warning yourself not to be disappointed if it doesn't pan out. I didn't even mention Richards. All I said was that we need primary scoring and 1st line players.

To me, I've seen enough from Dubinsky and Callahan to know they can take over a game when they need to. They carried this team to the playoffs in the stretch run.

Havlat's a $5mil cap hit for four more years. I don't think we're ready to commit assets to a player like that. If we get Richards, then we can talk.

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06-28-2011, 02:03 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
Del Zotto, who is a little younger than Filatov, put up 37 points in 80 games as a 19 year old and has already scored 48 points in the NHL. He's a defenseman, and he just turned 21. Filatov, also 21, has failed to stick with his team for more than 23 games in any NHL season so far, has only 13 NHL points, and might be an attitude problem/flight risk to Russia. Del Zotto's value is significantly higher. As others have noted, d-men take longer to develop. GMs know this as well and Del Zotto has proven he can play in the NHL. Filatov hasn't even proven he WILL play in the NHL. I don't agree that Erixon is our #1 prospect either, but otherwise I agree that trading any of them (this does not apply to Vtank, Kundratek, Pashnin) in anything other than a package deal that brings back a significant asset would be pointless.
Look, you're kidding yourself if Del Zotto is going to bring us all that much in return. There's too many questions about his game, his confidence, and his sophomore slump that lead to Matt Gilroy, Steve Eminger and 2 rookies surpassing him on the depth chart. It doesn't matter how long it takes anyone to develop. You can judge players solely on stats if you want, GMs don't.

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06-28-2011, 02:07 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Your third guy has to be someone that steps up from the system. We have Dubinsky, Callahan, Stepan, Kreider, Anisimov, Christian Thomas, MZA, etc.

If we're going to continue to build a team the right way, you need to wait for one of those players to become that third guy.

And i'm not sure why you went on your little Richards tangent quoting my post, it's as if you were warning yourself not to be disappointed if it doesn't pan out. I didn't even mention Richards. All I said was that we need primary scoring and 1st line players.

To me, I've seen enough from Dubinsky and Callahan to know they can take over a game when they need to. They carried this team to the playoffs in the stretch run.

Havlat's a $5mil cap hit for four more years. I don't think we're ready to commit assets to a player like that. If we get Richards, then we can talk.
You said we need first line players and I mentioned Richards because he'll be the the 1st line center God willing we sign him.... I don't agree with that mentality that you have to wait for prospects to be that 3rd guy -- especially at this juncture of our team. Chances are just as good that they don't become that guy VS. they do. You could be waiting for a while. We have a nice core in place. You build teams thru all methods and not just drafting. Drafts,trades, free agency, etc. You just need to be smart and assertive as to when you use what tool.

It's time we plug in some of those pieces via free agency or trade. The center and the other 3rd game breaker. We have enough depth in our prospect pool to make something happen. However, there are some players in that pool that we should hold onto for sure.

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06-28-2011, 03:00 AM
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Personally, i dont think anything will happen. If it does it will be minor.

Remember, you want to keep your depth throughout the year. McIlrath is going back to his junior team, so count him out. That makes 9.

6 or 7 D men are going to be carried on the NHL squad. That leaves the rest of the bunch around to be callup fodder or trade bait at the deadline. Why toss these kids before they even have a shot in camp? Gotta have some useful depth in the AHL as well. Unless of course a deal comes along that is favorable. But guys like Tank and Pashnin might get a game or two due to injury (hope not) or to spell someone. Just because you have the chips doesnt mean you have to deal them. Especially now that Gilroy's out of the picture, and Eminger and McCabe are ufa
this summarizes my position

I would add that of the top 4
Staal
Girardi
McD
Sauer

only Staal and Girardi have real value. The other 2 mostly display potential. So if NY is going to make a move for a forward it would be 1 of the top 2. Staal probably isn't going anywhere and has been said about RD Girardi going also doesn't make a ton of sense.

My hunch is that Erixon and the winner of Valentenko/MDZ wins the last slot. Del Zotto has to show he can avoid the turnovers which if he can the spot is his and he fits the teams needs well. However I would love to see Valentenko get a shot.

Pashnin if he stays on the american side of the pond is most likely ticketed for the AHL.

Kundrachek as was also stated before fits a need at RD

we also fogot to include Wade Redden who is most certainly a Torts kinda guy

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06-28-2011, 04:11 AM
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Girardi is NOT and should NOT be traded.

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06-28-2011, 04:34 AM
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Girardi is NOT and should NOT be traded.
I'm with this. Why would the Rangers be looking to deal him? I just don't see the reason to do it.

Sauer on the other hand I wouldn't mind seeing what his worth is. I'm sure his value is about as hi as it's gonna get. If I had to deal a D to make room he's the one I would go with just from a value point of view.

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06-28-2011, 04:42 AM
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Staal, Girardi, Sauer, McDonagh. Erixon should make the team as well. Thats 5. Kundratek, Valetenko, MDZ fighting for that last spot. Then there's McIlrath who is couple years away at least. Depth is a good problem to have. 2 of Kundratek/Tank/MDZ can play in A next season and then we can see what happens. Last season our 3rd pairing was an issue, something tells me this season that may not be the case.

A move or 2 should come but probably not in the very near future. Again it's a good problem to have.

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06-28-2011, 04:43 AM
  #73
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Girardi is NOT and should NOT be traded.
QFT. He's signed to a pretty good contract and him and Staalsy are 1 of the better shutdown pairs going around. The guy is a warrior.

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06-28-2011, 06:35 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
staal
girardi
mcd
sauer
erixon
mdz
vtank
ktek
pashnin
mcilrath

10 guys. all have a shot too. somethings gotta give eventually. and what happens if we sign a veteran this year.
McIlrath isn't ready. Pashnin probably isn't ready. Kundratek could be ready, but another year in the AHL won't hurt him.

That leaves 7 players. Vtank is probaby ready and it's a question mark as to whether MDZ will rebound. Erixon is said to be ready, but still has to prove it in camp.

Only problem there is that you don't want any of those 3 being the 7th dman if it can be helped. Though of the 3, Vtank is probably the likeliest candidate.

I think the only way any of these players gets traded is if we trade for a PMD.

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06-28-2011, 06:37 AM
  #75
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I'm with this. Why would the Rangers be looking to deal him? I just don't see the reason to do it.

Sauer on the other hand I wouldn't mind seeing what his worth is. I'm sure his value is about as hi as it's gonna get. If I had to deal a D to make room he's the one I would go with just from a value point of view.
What's the point in trading Sauer? He's a young, cheap to 4 dman. Until one of our other prospects proves that they can play top 4 minutes, we shouldn't entertain the thought of trading any of our top 4 dmen. And even then, we should be hesitant, as having more than 4 who can play top 4 is a great luxury to have. It will take pressure off Staal and Girardi and give us depth in case of injuries.

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