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O'Connell Sticks it to the team - Effort & Character

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Old
10-17-2003, 03:53 PM
  #26
IslesJack
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wow

Shouldn't Jeremy Jacobs be at fault for making a profit and not adding any money to payroll so the team can address needs?

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10-17-2003, 03:56 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruwinz20
Meister, what does MOC have to do with Joe Thornton and Glenn Murray competing for pucks? Lets not change what this thread is about.....MOC pointing out the obvious that the team is not competing hard. That has nothing to do with who he has traded for and why they were traded. Half the trades in the NHL are the forced variety. This is about guys getting paid handsomely and are not bringing it every night.

This is about guys who HOLD OUT for more money and want to be paid like superstars and they dont compete for loose pucks. You are trying to spin this back in MOCs direction, but the fact is he put the team together and for better or worse they should be giving 100% when they are out on the ice. Fans pay to watch them, they get paid very well for what they do...no other excuse. It has nothing to do with MOC and management, it has to do with the guys who *agreed* to play for big money not giving their all.....and that is unacceptable.
C'mon dude, I already acknowledged the guys have to play harder. I'm not disagreeing. But I am saying there is a bigger picture involved that has an impact. When O'Connell himself acknowledges after the playoffs that the team has work ethic problems, but then goes on to do nothing about it, that should be considered part of the equation when he's calling for accountability in the team's work ethic. That's what O'Connell has to do with it.

Even more, the criticism is coming from someone who created fundamental voids by not replacing Stumpel, Berard or Girard. By that I mean the Bruins went from nominal impact at those positions to even less. That doesn't mean I believe Stumpel and Berard were great players, or that they didn't have their drawbacks, and it doesn't mean their replacements, Green and Jillson, decent players I'm happy to have, aren't good to have around. I'm just saying the vision isn't there. The Bruins have many parts, but not a well build machine. As of now, they don't have a legit second line who can take pressure off Joe/Muzz and they are missing a puck rushing defenseman who can propel the transition. This was by the design of our GM. So when he's discontent with the team's performance, he should acknowledge his role.

This doesn't mention how I believe the captaincy was given to Thornton because he was the most talented (and highest paid) player on the team, and not because he was ready to step in and assume the role. We're talking a player here who's shown clear signs he's still early in the maturation process. To me, if this is going to be your strategy and you're going to rely on a young player like Thornton to lead your team to compete night in and night out (as opposed to a rebuilding franchise that's more patient), then you should surround him with strong role models. But the Bruins haven't done a very good job with this either.

To me, singling Thornton out is partly warranted, but I also see some of the "fall guy" syndrom in play. This is where the Bruins place blame on coaches, players and everyone else when in fact they should look in the mirror and acknowledge what kind of rosters they build. Make no mistake about it, I give O'Connell high marks in some regards, but when it comes to his vision about buidling complete teams that are free of fundamental problems, I think it's proven he has questionable judgment. Thus, just as with Jacobs, if he wants to get the most from his team, he should look inwards and acknowledge his role in what underlies the team's shortcomings.

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10-17-2003, 04:02 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslesJack
Shouldn't Jeremy Jacobs be at fault for making a profit and not adding any money to payroll so the team can address needs?
What we need is JJ to own another sports team like Illitch and funnel their TV money into Broons and then we could have kept Guerin, Allison and picked up Hatcher. Its to bad polo wouldn't take off because if they scored a big TV contract JJ could use shift the coin.

Another thing he could do is just be insane like Tom Hicks and give a guy we could use like Guerin $45 mil for 5 years. But poor Hicks, this week realizing the Stars and baseball Rangers are losing alot of money due to bonehead signings like Turgeon, Guerin, A-Rod and Chan Ho Park for four he has mandated cuts- for instance he wants the baseball team to shed $6 mil and he started by getting rid of 6-12 scouts who make anywhere from $50-90 thousand or so. Awesome savings. Thankfully these scouts probably don't have families :mad: and they can just shrug off the loss of income. To be honest- Tom Hicks is a total ahole and if he fell in a sink hole I'd only be sad he went so quick.

I'm sick of people blaming JJ for not being an irresponsible credent (sp) like the Walmart Boys, Pizza boy, Gulf Western exec's, Ed Snyder etc.....

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10-17-2003, 04:08 PM
  #29
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I just want to add JJ does rub me the wrong way but its crazy to lose money in anything. My kids everyday, every second want this, want that....a dollar here, five here, dad can we just have this; 50 cents for the gum ball machine....yada yada. Next thing I know I'm borrowing money from them for lunch.


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10-17-2003, 04:12 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKH
If sports has taught us anything its not always a collection of talent that wins.
Exactly...in other words, it's the TEAM that wins. I may not have communicated it very effectively, but that was my point. The Bruins have shown some strong positives about team building (Guerin, Hackett, Lapointe, no egos, etc), but also some horrible negatives (Shields/Grahame, 5 immobile d-men in `02 playoffs, yearly fundamental roster problems).

My focus was on the Bruins vision for building a real team. I don't think they build their lines or rosters with a winning mindset as much as they do other factors, including contracts, forced trades and stop-gaps. Sure I realize that any team is going to endure some of this, but when you look at the champions, NJ, Dallas, Colorado, Detroit, they are very calculated about how they go about their business. They don't just slap things together or backfill from reactionary moves.

This doesn't mean I think the Bruins have never done anything good when it comes to planning their teams. The Guerin acquisition was fantastic and sorely needed at the time. And when his back was to the wall, O'Connell got pretty strong value in both the Allison and McLaren trades. Knuble turned out to be a steal, largely at the hands of a coach who found some great combinations on the ice. So there are plenty positives about the teams they build, it's just that the negatives are bad enough to keep them from serious contention for what, 11 years now?

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10-17-2003, 04:17 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKH
I'm sick of people blaming JJ for not being an irresponsible credent (sp) like the Walmart Boys, Pizza boy, Gulf Western exec's, Ed Snyder etc.....
I can live with some of the conservative approach, as long as he spends when it counts. By that I mean, show that he cares. Maybe one season he takes a loss in order to get that special player who may just put the team over the top. But by and large, it's not the spending that bothers me about JJ, it's that his teams don't win and he's too complacent about it. I can understand rebuilding, anomalies and what not, but when you have 11 seasons of quick playoff exits and no end in sight, then someone should have to answer. That's where it rolls up to the guy at the top...

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10-17-2003, 04:19 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBruinmaker
I can live with some of the conservative approach, as long as he spends when it counts. By that I mean, show that he cares. Maybe one season he takes a loss in order to get that special player who may just put the team over the top. But by and large, it's not the spending that bothers me about JJ, it's that his teams don't win and he's too complacent about it. I can understand rebuilding, anomalies and what not, but when you have 11 seasons of quick playoff exits and no end in sight, then someone should have to answer. That's where it rolls up to the guy at the top...
he's got to give me top 10 payroll, thats all I ask. He can 10 and have first in revenue- but he has to be atleast 10th out of 30

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10-17-2003, 04:21 PM
  #33
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Hey Roger, you watched the Sox game last night....what was more disturbing the 8th inning or that Bud Light commercial for the foot long hot dog. We were joking about JJ going with the small roll to save costs of all thing. Nasty commercial- but funny in a sick sort of way.

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10-17-2003, 04:36 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKH
Hey Roger, you watched the Sox game last night....what was more disturbing the 8th inning or that Bud Light commercial for the foot long hot dog. We were joking about JJ going with the small roll to save costs of all thing. Nasty commercial- but funny in a sick sort of way.
Yeah, definitely watched the game. When Pedro gave up the hit to Jeter, I said, uh-oh, here we go. I couldn't bear to sit there and watch them fall apart. Not after all these years of heartache. So I got up and started doing stuff while the game was on in the background. Next thing I know it was tied...25 mins later it was over. I may have been bummed I wasn't watching closely if they won, but the flipside woulda been far worse. Holy cow, in some way I still can't believe they lost. Unfreekin-balievable. As Bruwinz20 said, Little was in doubt long before the series. Boy was he exposed. No way Pedro shoulda pitched past the seventh with his shoulder hurting, and when the Yanks got on base, Grady should have brought in relief - whether Lowe, Wakefield or whoever. Great. He will now be part of the infamous lore that includes Buckner, the `78 collapse, too many men on the ice and a few others.

Again, thank God the Patroits pulled it off, otherwise I'd think the Boston sports scene is jinxed these days.

I didn't see the hot dog commercial, but from what you described, it reminds me of the movie "Bachelor Party"...

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10-17-2003, 06:11 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBruinmaker
C'mon dude, I already acknowledged the guys have to play harder. I'm not disagreeing. But I am saying there is a bigger picture involved that has an impact. When O'Connell himself acknowledges after the playoffs that the team has work ethic problems, but then goes on to do nothing about it, that should be considered part of the equation when he's calling for accountability in the team's work ethic. That's what O'Connell has to do with it.

Even more, the criticism is coming from someone who created fundamental voids by not replacing Stumpel, Berard or Girard. By that I mean the Bruins went from nominal impact at those positions to even less. That doesn't mean I believe Stumpel and Berard were great players, or that they didn't have their drawbacks, and it doesn't mean their replacements, Green and Jillson, decent players I'm happy to have, aren't good to have around. I'm just saying the vision isn't there. The Bruins have many parts, but not a well build machine. As of now, they don't have a legit second line who can take pressure off Joe/Muzz and they are missing a puck rushing defenseman who can propel the transition. This was by the design of our GM. So when he's discontent with the team's performance, he should acknowledge his role.
.
Not replacing Stumpel, Girard and Berard have nothing to do with the work ethic of the players on this team. The lack of the second line was worse last year than this year. Last year we were missing Samsonov...and the Stumpel linewas invisible many, many nights. Again, it is not about production, or who put the team together or any big picture, it is about management being frustrated that guys who are being played millions have not shown a consistent effort after 4 regular season games. I dont think that MOC is concerned with points, I think he just wants to see a spark, some competitiveness that should be there whether you have three top lines or no top line at all. It is something that should just exist.

Now we can start a whole new thread that debates whether MOC has put this team in a position to succeed, but we will never be able to do that unless we see what this team can do with a consistent, concerted effort. Not playing hard, not fighting for loose pucks, not taking the body because you arent use to a winger....or there isnt a good complimentery line is nothing more than an excuse.

I want what most people want out of their team.....effort. Be competitive. When offense suffers make up for it in two way play and out hitting the opponent. When we see futility night in and night out WITH effort then the *big picture* becomes relevant.

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Old
10-17-2003, 08:39 PM
  #36
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effort/character/earning a paycheck. well interesting topics. effort? hmmm... that is something that comes with dedication, and pride. character? usually character breeds character, it dont just come out of nowhere. earning a paycheck? sounds like something a minimum wage guy tries to do because if he dont he'll be fired. And alas...to my point. these guys are paid and guarenteed millions of dollars REGUARDLESS of their performance. they are like $#@#ing kids...todays pro-athletes. a coach (babysiter) needs to know when to spank/change/feed them. yes we've been through a load of coaches...no fricken doubt!!! anyone who speaks out against management gets burnt (burns/keenan) no matter HOW GOOD they were. these 2 coaches had thornton/samsonov and company playing with the "fire" that MOC alluded to. not enough character??? LMFAO! who on this team (as i've stated before many times) is thornton suppose to 'learn', 'respect' and 'grow' from???? knuble? grosek? GREAT teams have GREAT leaders...and great leaders build great leaders period. thornton/samsonov are expected to wave a wand (without any REALLY positive influence) and BANG! they're superstars...again LMAO...earning a paycheck??? holy crap...MOC is smoking something better then i can afford. you mean to tell me he dont realize that guys who are $#@$ING MILLIONAIRES!!!! with guarenteed contracts should just "naturally want to or owe it to their team" to produce??? BULL$##$!...you give me a guarenteed million dollar contract and see how i perform...much like thornton so far after the huge coin or theodore on montreal after the huge $$$. MOC...he's done a helluva lot of good so far. dont spoil it by being so damn neive. these guys (millions guaranteed or not) need a huge kick in the a$$ to be motivated. not ALL NHLers...just this damn squad. under burns/keenan we looked like fricked gold medalists...under the "coach who kisses a$$es and dont want to cause any contraversy" types...we've failed UNBELIEVABLY miserably. bottom line...MOC get your head out of your a$$ and stop being gullable. in a perfect world, you'd put together a team and they'd have a great work ethic. THIS PARTICULAR SQUAD NEED A A$$ KICKING THOUGH!!!!
no more sullys/ftoreks....we need bowman/keenan/burns types on this team....and unfortunately...we had the goods and pi$$ed them away

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10-18-2003, 10:23 AM
  #37
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I Gotta Chime In

Man, I gotta speak

1. TEAM....Just HOW is this a team? Just how does management build a team? You sure as hell dont do it by getting rid, over and over again, your key guys. I have said it over and over again, as have others here, that you dont see the CHAMPION type teams in the NHL have as many contract haggles as Boston does. Sure, they all have em. But to nowhere near the extent that it happens here! Even Lou Lam doesnt have as many as we do!

The only team building that results from that is that you have a small core who stick together because they feel that ANYONE could be the next on the chopping block. Thats not GOOD team building.

2. Grady Little...You know what? I am sick and tired of hearing this guy get ripped. All of the Couch Potato Managers think they have ALL the answers! Funny thing is this...had he taken Pedro out, and Embree give up a hit or 2 following the pitching change, the SAME geniouses that rip Grady now for leaving Pedro in, would have ripped Grady for LIFTING Pedro! Its a friggin joke!

Talk about a manager who has built a HAPPY clubhouse! Certainly Epstein has a LOT to do with it because he went after character guys! But did you all catch the comments by guys like Millar? Millar said Grady excelled as a leader even though he was stuck with that stupid bullpen by committee deal for the better part of the year! The guys know that Grady is a damned good manager! he built a clubhouse that for the 1st time since probably `69, had the majority of the players friendly with one another!

I`m done.

Later

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10-18-2003, 10:57 AM
  #38
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I guess I'll bite. There is obviously no way to prove this but I was very disappointed that Pedro even started the 8th, never mind being left in to face Matsui, with Embree warm. Couple this with the myriad other moves that cost a game or inning here or there and what you get is a manager who got outcoached for much of the playoffs. Why get away from the Timlin in the 8th, Williamson in the 9th, habit that worked so well? Jeff, I distinctly remember you saying last year that pro athletes need consistency. They need to know what position they will play and how they will be used. I think the Berard to LW fiasco prompted some of this. Anyway, where was the consistency by Little the other night. Why let a guy who was struggling stay in a situation where the opposition has the advantage? Simply a terrible managing move that ultimately, probably cost the Sox a trip to the W.S.

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10-18-2003, 12:30 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine
Man, I gotta speak

1. TEAM....Just HOW is this a team? Just how does management build a team? You sure as hell dont do it by getting rid, over and over again, your key guys. I have said it over and over again, as have others here, that you dont see the CHAMPION type teams in the NHL have as many contract haggles as Boston does. Sure, they all have em. But to nowhere near the extent that it happens here! Even Lou Lam doesnt have as many as we do!

The only team building that results from that is that you have a small core who stick together because they feel that ANYONE could be the next on the chopping block. Thats not GOOD team building.

2. Grady Little...You know what? I am sick and tired of hearing this guy get ripped. All of the Couch Potato Managers think they have ALL the answers! Funny thing is this...had he taken Pedro out, and Embree give up a hit or 2 following the pitching change, the SAME geniouses that rip Grady now for leaving Pedro in, would have ripped Grady for LIFTING Pedro! Its a friggin joke!

Talk about a manager who has built a HAPPY clubhouse! Certainly Epstein has a LOT to do with it because he went after character guys! But did you all catch the comments by guys like Millar? Millar said Grady excelled as a leader even though he was stuck with that stupid bullpen by committee deal for the better part of the year! The guys know that Grady is a damned good manager! he built a clubhouse that for the 1st time since probably `69, had the majority of the players friendly with one another!

I`m done.

Later
Jeff, great initial point on how this team is built...unfortunatley it has about as much to do with this thread as apple picking. The disussion is simple.....the guys arent hustling, fighting for loose pucks and playing hard. It doesnt matter who the players are, how they were acquired or anythign else. It should be a matter of pride on their part to bust their ***** each night. So while you may have a point, it is not pertinent to this thread.

As far as Gump Little goes. I agree that he created a friendly clubhouse, but as you said, there are a ton of charachter guys here. Fact is Little's manageing has been killing us all year. Perhaps the pen did struggle, but if you *watched* the Sox on a nighly basis you would see that his terrible management of the pen was a big reason why. Finally, bottom line, he cost us a shot at the World Series. Leaving Pedro in there was one of the worst possible errors in the history of baseball. Sure, he created a good feeling in the clubhouse, but that does not absolve him of blame that he is certainly due.

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10-18-2003, 01:23 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKH
I just want to add JJ does rub me the wrong way but its crazy to lose money in anything. My kids everyday, every second want this, want that....a dollar here, five here, dad can we just have this; 50 cents for the gum ball machine....yada yada. Next thing I know I'm borrowing money from them for lunch.

Thank god, I thought it was only my kids.
Yeah, kids are the same all over, but I know I
wasn't like that.

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Old
10-19-2003, 05:30 AM
  #41
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Sarge...and Bruwinz

Sarge, here is my rebutal

There is a HUGE difference in skating Berard on the wing in a Janruary/February game, than how you manage a baseball team in the LCS or World Series.

All bets are of in the World Series!

I think that Jack McKeon said it best last night after the Marlins beat the Spankees.

He was being questioned as to why he pitched guys like Willis in roles they had all but no experience in...

"What are we gonna do? Save em for next June? Before this game started we were 4 wins from a World Championship. Whern you get that close, everything gets thrown out the window. I am going to pitch my best guys. It doesnt matter who is a starter or reliever. The best we have for that moment is who we will throw."

And I firmly stand by Little for what he did! He is in the ultimate no-win situation. There are more Red Sox managers on this planet than ants.

They all have the the answers. I`ll tell you what..sure, Timlin and Williamson had pitched well in the 8th/9th inning roles for 2 or 3 weeks. BUt I have more confidence in Pedro gutting out a win than I have in those 2 guys in a must win situation.

And knowing how it all shook down Sunday night...I`d it the SAME way if we could do it all over again!

I want Pedro pitching against the heart of that line up. He is my best and you have to beat him!

Same happens in hockey all the time....you see teams that have a 50-30 split in games played by the tenders in the playoffs...come postseason the rotation drops and you get down to ONE guy playing every night!

You need consistency yes....but you also have to do what it takes to win if you get close enough that you can smell it!


BRUWINZ,

Why is it that yo seem to like placing ALL of the blame on one person/player?

How about the following:

* Nomar for forgetting how to hit...

* Trot Nixon for that embarassing play on the Jeter 8th inning fly ball...EVERY kid from EVERY level of ball knows that you always take your first 2 steps back! That misplay DIRECTLY led to

* Johnny Damon doing the same things as Nixon, but earlier, on the Matsui double...

* Wakefield for hanging a knuckler where you and I could knock it out!

* Millar for mentally melting down on the ground ball...he should have thrown it to the pitcher immediately, instead he hesitated and ened up falling down in a stupid scramble to get to 1st!


Bottom line is this....EVERY manager makes about 200 mistakes in judgement per year!

But only FOUR of them get to the LCS.

And for all epstein did to imprve this team....lest not forget the following:

Defense wins championships....and Epstein put out a team that has possibly the most LIMITED range of any in the game! The corner outfielders can run! And the ENTIRE infield (other than Mirabelli and Tek) are below average fielders.

Little and his coaches masked, hid, disguised that team so well, that these AWFUL fielders were put into situations in which they couldnt hurt us too badly!

And that pitchin staff.....

I think that Lowe proved once and for all this year, that he is NO MORE than an average #3 starter. He cant pitch outside of Fenway.

We have a #1 in Pedro...a #3 in Lowe.

And lets get realistic....we have 3 #5`s in Burkett, Suppan and Wakefield.

To get that team past Oakland and into the LCS was sheer managing excellence.

But thats my opinion....I wont second guess a guy who has FORGOTTEN more about baseball than the collective minds on this board know!

Later

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Old
10-19-2003, 06:48 AM
  #42
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Jeff,

You are muddling up a very simple situation. Pedro was out of gas, he's the greatest 95 pitch pitcher in history, but with rare exception he's done after that 95th pitch. Anyone who watched that game knew that leaving him in was a mistake. Little simply choked, it happens in sports, and it should ultimately cost him his job.

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