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Evgeny Grachev traded to STL for pick #72

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06-27-2011, 08:25 AM
  #401
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I was pretty disappointed that Grachev didn't improve much on his first season...I feel like I was sliding my expectations from "he needs to have a good 2nd pro year" to "well he improved at the end even if he wasn't scoring a lot so maybe now he needs to have a good 3rd pro year!"

That all said he's still young, so...time will tell. If he wasn't happy and the Rangers weren't enthused with how things were working out, then hopefully it's a trade that works out for everyone involved

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06-27-2011, 09:42 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Even though it turned out in the manner it did, I still think it was worth expending a 3rd round pick on Grachev. A player like that is worth taking a risk when they did. This is not a Jessiman situation where you cannot afford to miss on the player, as it will end up setting you back years. All that was lost here was two years of time and effort. At the end of the day, IMO, he still had important value, because the Rangers were able to move him and use the pick they received to draft another young player with boom potential. Again, they didn't move him for future considerations, and lose all value he ever had. He had equivalent value to a former top ten pick (Filatov). And, in the collective minds of Ranger brass, he brought back the equivalent of a 2nd round pick. Even though Grachev did not ultimately succeed as a Ranger, spending a 3rd round pick on him was worth the time and effort.

Besides, after drafting Kreider, seeing Dubinsky develop successfully as a LW, and the steady rise of Hagelin in the system, always made Grachev more likely to become trade fodder in my mind. Yes, it would have been nice to see him as part of a deal for a big time player, but, from what has now been determined, his value was a 3rd round pick.
Definitely a valid point. I should have been more specific. What I'm particularly not a big fan of using high draft choices on players of this type (although, admittedly, if I was running a draft, these type of selections really would be few and far between on my part, whether it was in the first round or the seventh). Yes, it's a lot more reasonable to use a mid or late round pick on these type of players.

But, of course, this is why I don't like the 2010 1st round selection so much, and also why I'm concerned about what Kreider will ultimately become (much less concerned about him than McIlrath, though).

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06-27-2011, 10:05 AM
  #403
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What people seem not to realize about Grachev was that his "outstanding, rookie season in the OHL" was done with lots of smoke and mirrors. He came over when already physically developed at the age of 18 (older than most players in the CHL other than overagers) with a HUGE body type. So although he was a rookie and won the rookie of the year aware, he was the same age as Hodgson (who also still has not made the NHL, but I think will break out big time next season if his back holds up) who far and away outplayed him. In addition, he was on a dominant team in Brampton playing with a kid who is already a top-line center in the NHL in Matt Duchesne. He played on the power play with both of these guys who were far more dnagerous and called for significantly more attention than him.

So in reality, though he had a great year that got us all very excited about the prospect we had gotten in the third round of the draft, he was a role player on a very good, if not great juniors squad. When he came to the AHL it became VERY apparent that Gernander had to completely overhaul his game in order for him to potentially be a top-6 NHLer. Obviously, he did have the tools for the overhaul being that he won faster skater in the OHL All Star Competition, he had a very good shot and lots of size. I was very hopeful that with the tools he had, all of a sudden (and I was still hopeful that it would happen this coming year too) it would all fall into place, he would get "it," and his game would transform. It is something that could happen suddenly with that type of player and he could certainly still turn into that successful NHL top 6 player.

What this trade tells me is that they don't think he has the hockey sense in order to allow it to fall into place or that he is not willing to work hard enough to get there. As much as the kid may have asked for a trade, there is no way they would give him up for a third rounder unless Rangers brass thought it was a lost cause. Now lets hope Steven Fogarty isn't the same type of case, dominating high schoolers with his size and speed, that are good, but maybe not that elite.

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06-27-2011, 10:12 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
What people seem not to realize about Grachev was that his "outstanding, rookie season in the OHL" was done with lots of smoke and mirrors. He came over when already physically developed at the age of 18 (older than most players in the CHL other than overagers) with a HUGE body type. So although he was a rookie and won the rookie of the year aware, he was the same age as Hodgson (who also still has not made the NHL, but I think will break out big time next season if his back holds up) who far and away outplayed him. In addition, he was on a dominant team in Brampton playing with a kid who is already a top-line center in the NHL in Matt Duchesne. He played on the power play with both of these guys who were far more dnagerous and called for significantly more attention than him.

So in reality, though he had a great year that got us all very excited about the prospect we had gotten in the third round of the draft, he was a role player on a very good, if not great juniors squad. When he came to the AHL it became VERY apparent that Gernander had to completely overhaul his game in order for him to potentially be a top-6 NHLer. Obviously, he did have the tools for the overhaul being that he won faster skater in the OHL All Star Competition, he had a very good shot and lots of size. I was very hopeful that with the tools he had, all of a sudden (and I was still hopeful that it would happen this coming year too) it would all fall into place, he would get "it," and his game would transform. It is something that could happen suddenly with that type of player and he could certainly still turn into that successful NHL top 6 player.

What this trade tells me is that they don't think he has the hockey sense in order to allow it to fall into place or that he is not willing to work hard enough to get there. As much as the kid may have asked for a trade, there is no way they would give him up for a third rounder unless Rangers brass thought it was a lost cause. Now lets hope Steven Fogarty isn't the same type of case, dominating high schoolers with his size and speed, that are good, but maybe not that elite.
Focusing just on the Fogarty comment, I do believe Rangers brass was pleasantly surprised to discover he's now 6'3". By their comments, he's grown at least an inch and a half since they were scouting him in games this past spring.

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06-27-2011, 12:04 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Bringing this back on topic, now that I've had 24 hours to digest and gather more information from Sather's interview as well as the commentary from observers like Leslie and the beat writers, here's where I come out:

I still don't like the trade. I don't like it because I think that Grachev will amount to a solid top 6 winger in the league and that St. Louis paid an awfully small price to get a prospect of his caliber - who, it needs to be repeated, JUST turned 21.
I like Grachev, I loved the pick and think he has a future but this is unfair. St. Louis paid what the market value was for a kid that has played one decent half a season in two years of AHL hockey. A prospect of his caliber? Grachev right now is a "dime a dozen" prospect. Until he proves otherwise and all best to him doing that in St. Louis. I think he might...



Quote:
However, I now UNDERSTAND the trade because I can completely buy that his camp would have requested it by now and, if it was known throughout the league, it's entirely possible that the 3rd rounder was the best return that the Rangers could get.
Entirely possible? Do you hear of another offer from another team? I know you may say the Rangers could've gotten more but you don't know if that's true or not.
Quote:
I do think that there's a fair amount of misinformation flying around. They've been trying to move him for a year? I find that very hard to credit. You mean to tell me you couldn't do better for him back in early February when he was coming off of a 9-5-14 in 14 games run? More likely they only floated his name a couple of times at various points when he wasn't doing as well and didn't get meaningful interest at those times. In the same way that people have written off the "he's ready to compete for a spot" comments from Clark/Gorton as company PR, I think Sather's spinning here - in neither case do I think they're lying per se, but rather exaggerating the truth.
I agree the Rangers i'm sure are giving us misinformation. You also don't know what a team was willing to pay in "early February"? Maybe Florida would've taken Grachev instead of a 3rd round pick for McCabe? Would you have been happier about that? Teams aren't falling over themselves to trade for a player not taking the next step in the AHL. A player that can easily move back home at the next whiff of the AHL. I hate defending Sather but to say he only floated his name is a tad unfair. What do you think a fair return would be for Grachev?



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In the end, I believe, as I've always believed, what you've got here is a player who was mishandled. I was saying it at the beginning of the year and I'm saying it again now. To be clear, I'm not referring to when he came out of juniors (which was entirely his camp's decision) and I'm not talking about his demotions from the Rangers (which were deserved based on his performance); I'm talking about the 95% of his Rangers career spent under the care of Gernander when he was supposedly being molded into the player he would be in the NHL. I honestly believe that Gernander demands that every player learn to play the game the way that he played it and that he does not have the flexibility to direct the progression of more skilled players. If you don't bang and grind, play straight north/south and think defense before offense, you will be forced to do so. That's fine for many players, including a rare group that has the ability to transition from that style into an offensively creative approach and back again, but it's not the approach that's appropriate for all. To take a parallel from baseball, if you're a coach and you get Mark Teixeira, you don't demand that he learn to play Brett Gardiner's game - forcing a power hitter to learn how to bat leadoff, drag bunt and steal a base is a waste of time.
So Grachev was mishandled and it's Gernanders fault because Gernander tried to make him something he isn't? Come on, I mean Gernander isn't without his faults but this is unfair. Whenver you bash Gernander you never bring up the kids that have graduated to the NHL while he was an Assistant Coach and Head Coach. What prospects in Hartford is Gernander holding back or mishandling? Surely it has to be more then Grachev for you to have a statement like this.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I believe there's some blame to go on Grachev's side as well. I think that he may not be getting the best advice from his agent and it is disappointing that he couldn't do more in his brief stints on Broadway. But, to me, the majority of it lies with the Rangers for trying to turn him into a player that he's not. If you read the article Doyle posted, you'll see that Mellanby and Armstrong are looking forward to working with him to bring out the player he should be. I think they're going to be successful and it's going to come back to bite us in the arse.
How did the Rangers try to make him a player he isn't when nobody knows what the heck Grachev is? St. Louis says they are excited for the kid and they must be a totally honest organization because that COULDN'T be PR spin...right?


Quote:
Regardless, it appears that the organization has committed to Gernander and perhaps the one track of coaching that he is able to bring is consistent with the overall organizational direction they're trying to achieve. Perhaps he even has orders to restrict himself to that style. If that's the case, then I'm glad they made the move before he lost even further value. If you believe in the concept of a "sunk cost" (and I do), then I am willing to accept that a 3rd rounder is the best they could do under the current circumstances and I'm glad they did.
This is really one of the few things you have posted that I agree with. What I'm quoting above is probably the truth and the rest of the stuff you posted is all conspiracy. You know why? Because what you posted above is logical, it makes sense, it's probably the truth...

Quote:
However, if that's the case, then in judging the team's overall handling of this asset, you'd have to assign a failing grade. Either they should have drafted a different player at his spot or, since one of a similar quality was likely unavailable, they should have moved him earlier when he had more value (such as when he decided to leave juniors against their wishes). No matter how you slice it, Grachev's career with the Rangers should've ended differently - and better for the organization.
So assign a failing grade to the prospect who didn't make the most of his TWO years in the organization. You want to play hindsight with a 3 year old draft pick? Also, why would they move a prospect before he has shown what he can do for the team? That makes no sense, if this is your gripe with the Rangers it's laughable. Do you think the Rangers should move Kreider now because he hasn't left school? Should've draft another player....Should've traded him after Juniors....Take the tim foil hat off....


Quote:
One last note: I've said it in every post regarding this trade, but I want to emphasize it again - my disappointment in the trade is no reflection on Fogarty who I'm very glad to have. No matter how he develops, remember that St. Louis didn't trade us that player - they traded us a 3rd round pick. If the player available made that pick more palatable to the staff, that's great... but it doesn't change the fact that in objectively analyzing value received, Grachev returned only a 3rd rounder. If the player picked with that pick goes on to become an all-star the staff deserves kudos, but it doesn't make the trade any better.

Try again. Remember the Rangers traded a player to pick Fogarty you can't seperate the two.


Do you think you are qualified to preach about "objectively analyzing value" when talking about Grachev. If the player picked turns into an All Star nobody is going to care about Grachev.....

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06-27-2011, 12:29 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by NYRCC View Post
Someone needs to dig up that article that Mitch Beck(I think) wrote about Grachev last year. If I remember right, Beck didn't think Grachev was ever going to get it together. Can't say I disagree. Not like Hodgson has gone on to do much of anything either.
mitch beck Knows nothing about NHL/Ranger Hockey, he has access but he is thinks every whale guy is NHL ready and can make the Rangers, except for grachev and dale weise.

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06-27-2011, 12:40 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
What people seem not to realize about Grachev was that his "outstanding, rookie season in the OHL" was done with lots of smoke and mirrors. He came over when already physically developed at the age of 18 (older than most players in the CHL other than overagers) with a HUGE body type. So although he was a rookie and won the rookie of the year aware, he was the same age as Hodgson (who also still has not made the NHL, but I think will break out big time next season if his back holds up) who far and away outplayed him. In addition, he was on a dominant team in Brampton playing with a kid who is already a top-line center in the NHL in Matt Duchesne. He played on the power play with both of these guys who were far more dnagerous and called for significantly more attention than him.

So in reality, though he had a great year that got us all very excited about the prospect we had gotten in the third round of the draft, he was a role player on a very good, if not great juniors squad. When he came to the AHL it became VERY apparent that Gernander had to completely overhaul his game in order for him to potentially be a top-6 NHLer. Obviously, he did have the tools for the overhaul being that he won faster skater in the OHL All Star Competition, he had a very good shot and lots of size. I was very hopeful that with the tools he had, all of a sudden (and I was still hopeful that it would happen this coming year too) it would all fall into place, he would get "it," and his game would transform. It is something that could happen suddenly with that type of player and he could certainly still turn into that successful NHL top 6 player.

What this trade tells me is that they don't think he has the hockey sense in order to allow it to fall into place or that he is not willing to work hard enough to get there. As much as the kid may have asked for a trade, there is no way they would give him up for a third rounder unless Rangers brass thought it was a lost cause. Now lets hope Steven Fogarty isn't the same type of case, dominating high schoolers with his size and speed, that are good, but maybe not that elite.
I never bought into the hype people were bringing out with his 40g-40a-80 pt. OHL season. He was playing with an NHL caliber player and another top prospect. Frankly I thought 80 pts. was low for playing with talent on that level. Was never sold on Grachev since day 1 and had been cautioning people against automatically penciling him into the 1st/2nd line for months.

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06-27-2011, 12:53 PM
  #408
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It probably doesn't matter if the Rangers were able to get a 2nd pick or not. All indications point that if they got a 2nd or any earlier pick, they still would have selected Fogarty so you really have to look at this as Grachev for Fogarty and not Grachev for a 3rd.

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06-28-2011, 02:07 AM
  #409
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Every time you went on the NY Rangers official site the past two seasons, you always saw pictures of Grachev and heard great things. Now he's only worth a #72 pick ? That ship turned around pretty quick.

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06-28-2011, 06:47 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by NYRBlueBlood View Post
Every time you went on the NY Rangers official site the past two seasons, you always saw pictures of Grachev and heard great things. Now he's only worth a #72 pick ? That ship turned around pretty quick.
That's what happens...teams overhype their own guys, fans get caught up, and usually there's a let down. We have to remember that prospects are just that, and to realise that most won't make it, no matter how good they seem now. We've actually been lucky as an org that so many of turned out so far.

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06-28-2011, 08:43 AM
  #411
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It's not that they overhyped him. It's just that sometimes prospects don't work out. I doubt they put pictures of Grachev up thinking "we hate this kid and his development stalled so we're gonna trade him, but let's trick everyone into thinking he's gonna be a first liner!"

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06-28-2011, 10:50 AM
  #412
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It's not that they overhyped him. It's just that sometimes prospects don't work out.
In this particular case no one knows. The guy obviously needs more time. Big kids initially dominate little defenders, then when they move up to higher competition and face similar size opposition they cannot be as productive while time and space has taken away from them. Add to that that Rangers are clueless in forward development, particularly in teaching the creativity required. While "keep it simple" is okay for Ds, it is not so for scorers. If you need more time before entering NHL, you better spend it making more money. His contemporaries in KHL were making 10-15 times more. There is a benefit being in NA, you could make much more later, but not with Rangers who can only manufacture bottom 6 no-score-on-me Gernander clones. As such Grachev has no future, since no vacancies at bottom 6 are available no matter how hard he would try to impress in the camp. Will he do better at STL? Who knows... But they will try to work with him, while Rangers (Torts very offten, for instance) were calling for "natural instincts" a well known excuse for those unable to develop a player by teaching and working with the guy. At least initially he will see some attention he enjoyed earlier as Ranger's asset. Then if it doesn't work out his agent will call overseas.

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06-28-2011, 04:38 PM
  #413
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I look at it this way: it's good to see the Rangers make an effort to develop a prospect and then realize that it's time for a change (whether the player brooches the subject or not).

There have been Ranger regimes who would have either kept him in the minors for years or played him at the NHL level for years and neither bearing any results.

People need to look at the NHL draft the same way the NFL draft works. Because of the salary cap, 3rd, 4th and 5th rounders are worth a lot more now than ever.

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06-28-2011, 04:51 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
That's what happens...teams overhype their own guys, fans get caught up, and usually there's a let down.
Did anybody from the organization ever say that he was a potential 1st liner or was that a fan creation?

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06-28-2011, 06:48 PM
  #415
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I never bought into the hype people were bringing out with his 40g-40a-80 pt. OHL season. He was playing with an NHL caliber player and another top prospect. Frankly I thought 80 pts. was low for playing with talent on that level. Was never sold on Grachev since day 1 and had been cautioning people against automatically penciling him into the 1st/2nd line for months.
Grachev certainly was hyped as the shiny new prospect about 2 years ago. It just shows how difficult it is to predict which prospects make it to the NHL and which do not.

Case in point.. Who would have thought that Callahan would be the legit top 6 or better NHL forward when he was drafted?

Perhaps Fogarty will be a better NHL player than the the more hyped shiny prospects in the system such as Kreider and Thomas. Who really knows??

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06-29-2011, 08:25 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Dont get me wrong, I love JD, but his tenure at the helm of the blues has largely been a disaster.


Are you crazy ? The Blues have done a complete over-haul and are loaded with young talent. Oshie, Backes, Perron, Stewart, Berglund, Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Polak, Cole, Nikitin, Halak, Tarasenko, Schwartz, etc. Borderline ridiculous.

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06-29-2011, 08:30 PM
  #417
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Are you crazy ? The Blues have done a complete over-haul and are loaded with young talent. Oshie, Backes, Perron, Stewart, Berglund, Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Polak, Cole, Nikitin, Halak, Tarasenko, Schwartz, etc. Borderline ridiculous.
Agreed. That team is filled to the top with talent. They are 2 -3 seasons away from a playoff shoe-in year in and year out.

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