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Old
06-28-2011, 06:43 AM
  #76
offdacrossbar
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if any one of the new guys gets a shot and grabs it, then i think thats a very good thing for us going forward. development of players is essential for us to get to the next level. not only does that help us improve but it helps us make deals which helps us improve.

this defensive pipeline weve established is perhaps the most positive part of our whole organization. if we are fortunate to have another season where 2 young defenders step up big time, ala sauer and mcd, we should be in a position to make a move or two.

the good thing about improved drafting success is it creates pressure on guys to continue to get better or risk losing a spot. even guys like mcd and sauer cant relax. theres guy looking to take their job. and thats a very good thing. eventually, this defensive depth may get us the goal scorer we so desperately need.

if you are del zotto and you look at tim erixon at 6'3 210 coming into camp with his resume, or a vtank with his size and snarl, you gotta be concerned.

he has his ace in the hole however, question is does he use it. can he be that 40- 50 point dman, with tons of assists and pp poise, or does he return to the defensive liability, telegraph passer and general poser he was last season. hes really our only dman that has shown any creativity beyond the blueline. time for him to step up.

look at what la, cbus and phily were able to do. make impact deals that help them now and in the future. thats what you can do when you have bonafide chips to lay on the table.

right now, defensively anyway, we got the makings of a nice fat stack.

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06-28-2011, 06:48 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
The best part about our D is that it is CHEAP and our top two guys are locked up for a few years.

We better keep it that way. Pour the money into the forwards.
Agree and agree with your previous post.

McIlrath can go back to juniors--pretty certain he could use some more development. Pashnin is most probably Connecticut bound and there is no hurry on Kundratek unless he's lights out in training camp. He's only had one pro season and is 21 or 22. He and the Rangers have plenty of time if his game needs tweaking. Del Zotto at this point is iffy as well. Might spend part of the year in the NHL and another part in the AHL.

I would add that Parlett might be a good surprise and work his way into the mix before the year is out but he is Connecticut bound as well.

And anyone wondering about the need for surplus defensemen can look at Vancouver this year. In the finals they finally ran out. To go deep into the playoffs you need 9-10 d-men you have some faith in--whether you can find NHL roster spots for them or not. The Rangers are setting their defense up that way and I think it's a good idea.

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06-28-2011, 06:56 AM
  #78
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just adding to this discussion, but we could find a cheap vet to be the 6th or 7th..they are always available and affordable. not like all 7 guys have to be from the system. that could give us more depth if we need it to deal someone.

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06-28-2011, 07:31 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
staal
girardi
mcd
sauer
erixon
mdz
vtank
ktek
pashnin
mcilrath

10 guys. all have a shot too. somethings gotta give eventually. and what happens if we sign a veteran this year.

should be a ferocious battle in camp for those last few spots.

my take is this, if any of the new guys step up and play well, like a vtank or a ktek and mdz continues to struggle, i expect a move. lots of chips to be dealt here.

if we struggle to score again, i could see a package put together for a scoring forward.

wouldnt be surprised to see a dan girardi in play if erixon and vtank step up and become this years sauer/mcd. and certainly mdz would be in play, although another so-so season and his value drops considerably.

this whole defense thing will be interesting going forward.
I think its probably way too early to say we have a glut after the first day of prospects camp...I love McD but he hasn't even had a full season in the NHL. We don't know what MDZ we'll get. Big Mac who knows if he is ready to make the jump to the bigs. etc, etc...

I'm not on top of the options we have with some of these kids...who can go up and down without waivers, etc so I cannot comment on who would be at the top of the list in a potential deal.

What I think your post really highlights is how the dradfting/development for this team has improved by leaps and bounds from the dark days...now kids come up if/when they are ready or have earned a shot...no Dale Purintons in the bunch.

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06-28-2011, 08:17 AM
  #80
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One season ago I would be the first to say lets move Dan Girardi and do it for a mediocre return. That was just how I felt after the Gaborik incident with Dan Carcillo.

This past season though Girardi was a stud. And...the guy pairs off with Marc Staal incredibly well. As a top pairing, I am fine with these two. The cap hits aren't out of control, and that they know each others game to me just says keep them both unless a bonafide stud comes available and he needs to be in the package.

On Havlat...I think this guy is a very underrated player. I like him, and I would be happy to see him here. Tradng Dan Girardi for him though?... I am not sold on that.

I still wish the team could find a way scoop Clowe out of SJ. That the kind of guy I want to see up there if...IF richards signs. Balance out the smaller, less phyiscal players that this team currently has and get a player that will give these guys a little more room. In Boston we just watched what can happen with a super-physical LW can do in your top 6. I have all the confidence in the world in the supporting cast. But this team needs that X-FACTOR.

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06-28-2011, 08:44 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
I've been saying it for awhile now: our top 4 is redundant, and one of Girardi, Sauer, or McD will be traded at some point (but not necessarily this season).

Girardi always seemed like the most expendable, but he is our eldest and most experienced defenseman. It really depends on how our other defensemen develop.
Staal and McD are untouchable on D, but anyone else is fair game IMO if and only if they are getting a elite scorer in some trade package. We aren't trading them just to trade, but rather to get one of the missing pieces this team desperately needs.

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06-28-2011, 08:54 AM
  #82
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So, question for you: the assumption is always that Girardi will be the one to go. But the real glut is on the LEFT side. What if with TB's supposed cash problems and the rumored resulting difficulties in signing Stamkos, it wound up being something crazy like a package along the lines of Staal, Dubinsky, Kreider and our 2012 1st rounder for Stamkos and Kubina... would you do it?
Talk of trading Girardi is crazy, the D is only 4 deep right now, how can you dump any of them. Excitement over unproven players is nice, but you can't make moves until somebody actually comes up from the minors and does something.

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06-28-2011, 09:11 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by xxxZENxxx View Post
Staal and McD are untouchable on D, but anyone else is fair game IMO if and only if they are getting a elite scorer in some trade package. We aren't trading them just to trade, but rather to get one of the missing pieces this team desperately needs.
Perhaps Staal is (although really nobody is untouchable) but there's no way McDonagh is. I'm not saying I don't think he's good, or will become very good. But if a team wanted him as part of a package for a top line talent you'd have to pull the trigger.

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06-28-2011, 09:19 AM
  #84
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I dont understand why Girardi's name always gets thrown around in trade talks here. I mean i understand why - because hes a good defender, can log minutes on any pairing (but thrives on the top one), hitting his prime, a good cap hit and is attractive to other teams if you want to get a decent return - but aren't those the exact things you want in a defender?

Hes perfectly priced imo at 3.325, hes not eating up anything, especially now that the upper limit has been raised. Hes been a great Ranger find - undrafted nonetheless. We always complain about FAs coming in, players with lazy attitudes or bad cap hits - but yet we are willing to part with a guy who's got everything we need, doesnt run his mouth, takes his lumps for the team and continues to perform well on a consistent basis. I cant make any sense of why his name is constantly thrown into deals like its an afterthought. These are the types of players you hold onto. Expendable? Sure, ok. Almost everyone is. But i wouldnt give up on this guy that easily.

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06-28-2011, 09:22 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
staal
girardi
mcd
sauer
erixon
mdz
vtank
ktek
pashnin
mcilrath

10 guys. all have a shot too. somethings gotta give eventually. and what happens if we sign a veteran this year.

should be a ferocious battle in camp for those last few spots.

my take is this, if any of the new guys step up and play well, like a vtank or a ktek and mdz continues to struggle, i expect a move. lots of chips to be dealt here.

if we struggle to score again, i could see a package put together for a scoring forward.

wouldnt be surprised to see a dan girardi in play if erixon and vtank step up and become this years sauer/mcd. and certainly mdz would be in play, although another so-so season and his value drops considerably.

this whole defense thing will be interesting going forward.
Eventually is the key word.

Pashnin, Kundratek, and McIlrath have zero chance of making the roster this year. MDZ, Erixon, and Valentenko are gambles one way or another.

Perhaps Im in the minority, but I think this team needs a 1 year veteran stopgap in the roster this season.

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06-28-2011, 09:24 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
staal
girardi
mcd
sauer
erixon
mdz
vtank
ktek
pashnin
mcilrath

10 guys. all have a shot too. somethings gotta give eventually. and what happens if we sign a veteran this year.

should be a ferocious battle in camp for those last few spots.

my take is this, if any of the new guys step up and play well, like a vtank or a ktek and mdz continues to struggle, i expect a move. lots of chips to be dealt here.

if we struggle to score again, i could see a package put together for a scoring forward.

wouldnt be surprised to see a dan girardi in play if erixon and vtank step up and become this years sauer/mcd. and certainly mdz would be in play, although another so-so season and his value drops considerably.

this whole defense thing will be interesting going forward.
Hold on - all of a sudden people are saying we need 10 (and it's apparently really 11 given how the org feels about Partlett) guys who are young, under contract with upside for depth? Because THAT'S the list above. It is not the list of ALL defensemen who may play for the Rangers this year. People conveniently gloss over the comment I bolded.

The way you build depth for this season is to have our current crop plus a couple of vets (either 5th-7th types on smaller contracts or guys with larger contracts that we take back in a trade) and/or mediocre prospects. Take the list above, add in an Eminger plus one or two similar guys and you're all of a sudden up to 13-14 players to fill 6 slots.

My view of effective NHL depth is a solid top 4, with perhaps another guy who's pushing for top 4 status on the bottom pair. Then you want a couple of guys who can hold their own and not make mistakes at 6 and 7. In the minors you want 1 or 2 guys who can step in and not embarrass themselves for short stretches and 1 or 2 guys who have upside to eventually crack the top 4 of the big club, but are raw and working on their games. That's 11 guys total for real depth - 4 of which can be capably filled by journeyman vets and easily obtainable prospects that have plateaued like Bryce Lampman was for us back in the day.

The reason that there's real value on the list ODC laid out is that these guys are all solid talents who A) either already can, or have a decent chance, of playing top 4 minutes and B) are cheap and controllable for multiple years. Teams will want them and they will want them now, before they start losing years towards UFA and/or getting frustrated by the ceiling they're bumping into.

To hang onto 11 deep legit top 4 players/prospects for depth when 7 kids is plenty for that purpose - and especially when we're woefully short on offense - is a waste IMO. It would be equivalent to carrying a 4 kids who have legit 25+ goal scoring capability in the minors "just in case" while playing 3 Emingers in regular rotation on our backline. If we were truly deep enough at all positions that we didn't need upgrading elsewhere, sure - stockpile as many as you can. But as long as we have other holes to fill, why not use them to do so?

Which is why I'm very much in favor of A) acquiring one or two low priced vets and B) moving at least one, if not two, guys off that list either now or at some point in 2011-2012.

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06-28-2011, 09:31 AM
  #87
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just adding to this discussion, but we could find a cheap vet to be the 6th or 7th..they are always available and affordable. not like all 7 guys have to be from the system. that could give us more depth if we need it to deal someone.
I agree, a cheap veteran could add depth and leadership to this young group. Not going any more than 1 or 1.5. mil.

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06-28-2011, 09:39 AM
  #88
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And just to follow up on my previous post - I hit enter and then immediately read that Laich has been locked up for 6 years. Fewer and fewer quality guys appear to be making it to UFA. The cap is going up and teams (well, for the most part) find ways to pay them enough that they're happy to stay and not uproot their lives. So, if we want to acquire legit scoring talent for this team, we need to be prepared to deal for it. The way to do that is to sign a couple of run-of-the-mill vets to log 12 minutes a game on the backline, let the top 4 play 48 minutes a game and then swap one of our valuable Dmen for a valuable forward.

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06-28-2011, 09:43 AM
  #89
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I guess I'm the only one not in love with Pashnin.

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06-28-2011, 09:53 AM
  #90
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I'd like to see Valentenko paired with Erixon.

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06-28-2011, 09:59 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
I guess I'm the only one not in love with Pashnin.
He's 21 and wasn't great in the KHL, if he was doing well there I would understand the hype.

Maybe he is a better fit for the NA game, but i'd expect he'd be an AHL defenseman, maybe top out as a #7 going forward.

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06-28-2011, 10:11 AM
  #92
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I guess I'm the only one not in love with Pashnin.
I find it surprising people even mention him, or Kundratek for that matter. Its highly unlikely you'll ever see them in a Rangers uniform.

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06-28-2011, 10:13 AM
  #93
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Our very stacked defense, is also a very unproven defense.

Love the core Sather has collected. But, there are a few things on my mind. . . .

-Unless Girardi regresses, there's no need to even think about moving him. Especially when you consider he plays RD.

-I think it's almost to good to be true if both McD and Sauer build on their stellar rookie seasons. Can Sauer prove his health concerns are completely behind him?

-McD and Erixon are guys who can turn our blue-line from good, to great. If they both pan out, I personally wouldn't move anyone off our roster. I'd keep all 6 guys. I'd love to have a stacked, homegrown, affordable defense.

LD: Staal, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Erixon. Can any of these guys play RD? If the answer is no, then ****. Someone's probably getting moved. Probably MDZ.

If Vtank has a monster camp, then, I dunno...

It's a good problem to have. I'd hate to see anybody moved for a ****ing Zherdev though.

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06-28-2011, 10:16 AM
  #94
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I find it surprising people even mention him, or Kundratek for that matter. Its highly unlikely you'll ever see them in a Rangers uniform.
Kundratek was a better defenseman for Hartford last year than Valentenko as a rookie. That alone should say his upside is much higher. Vtank has spent multiple years in the AHL and KHL, and is still hampered by his speed. Kundratek doesn't have that problem.

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06-28-2011, 10:22 AM
  #95
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I'd like to see Valentenko paired with Erixon.
I dont know much about Erixon, so I'll reserve judgment.

Valentenko's game really impressed me last pre-season (in fact, it made me wonder why we picked McIlrath at #10).

If he has improved his speed, most notably his lateral movement, he could provide an element this backline lacks.

He reminds me of Tomas Kloucek a bit, which is good and bad because it was fun to watch him play, although he was incredibly wreckless.

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06-28-2011, 10:29 AM
  #96
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Kundratek was a better defenseman for Hartford last year than Valentenko as a rookie. That alone should say his upside is much higher. Vtank has spent multiple years in the AHL and KHL, and is still hampered by his speed. Kundratek doesn't have that problem.
True, but Kundratek does have the problem of being a bit redundant when you look at the current roster.

Valentenko provides the toughness this backline sorely lacks. McIlrath isnt ready...Sauer provided some last season, but he needs help in that department.

We both brought up Valentenko's speed, which is the thing that could ultimately hold him back.

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06-28-2011, 10:32 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I find it surprising people even mention him, or Kundratek for that matter. Its highly unlikely you'll ever see them in a Rangers uniform.
I'm higher on Kundratek than Pashnin. Tomas might have been Hartford's best and most consistent defenseman over the course of the season, even more so than Valentenko. Not a bad performance for a 21-year old. Now, is he a special player? Probably not. He could be a nice bottom pairing guy in a couple of years though.

Pashnin, I'm just not sold on. There's a difference between looking good in training and development camps and performing well in actual competitive games. His performance in the KHL was pretty "meh" from all reports, so I don't know why so many people are predicting that he steps in to make a difference in a vastly superior league in the next year or so.

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06-28-2011, 10:41 AM
  #98
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I think something will give when we have 10 NHL caliber defensemen available. Right now, guys like Pashnin and Kundratek need more development time, and Valentenko still needs serious work on his skating. Erixon appears to be ready for the NHL, but that's hardly a guarantee. MDZ isn't a guarantee to make the roster either.

Too many question marks to start thinking trades are on the horizon.

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06-28-2011, 11:21 AM
  #99
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I'm higher on Kundratek than Pashnin. Tomas might have been Hartford's best and most consistent defenseman over the course of the season, even more so than Valentenko. Not a bad performance for a 21-year old. Now, is he a special player? Probably not. He could be a nice bottom pairing guy in a couple of years though.

Pashnin, I'm just not sold on. There's a difference between looking good in training and development camps and performing well in actual competitive games. His performance in the KHL was pretty "meh" from all reports, so I don't know why so many people are predicting that he steps in to make a difference in a vastly superior league in the next year or so.
The "buzz" from Pashnin's being the 1st overall pick in a meaningless supplemental KHL draft refuses to die. Yes, his performance in games that count has been unremarkable so far. Until he proves otherwise, I'd rate him no better than the gritty Vladimir Denisov who played a season for Hartford a few years ago.

McIlrath & Kundratek can certainly use more seasoning. MDZ, Erixon & Valentenko have yet to establish themselves as NHL regulars. That leaves 4 defensemen who are givens assuming McDonagh & Sauer don't experience a sophomore jinx. Even if we add a veteran, I don't see the urgent need to trade anyone.

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06-28-2011, 11:24 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
I guess I'm the only one not in love with Pashnin.
I am convinced people love him because he was drafted first overall in the KHL draft, and don't understand what that means. Russian teams develop their own kids, and expose only their lower prospects. The first overall in the KHL draft is the best overall.

It's like being first overall in a waiver draft.

The fact that Pashnin even got exposed to the KHL draft is a concern.

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