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Reports Flyers Trade Carter to CBJ, Richards to LAK; Sign Bryzgalov for 9 years

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Old
06-28-2011, 11:55 AM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
I would not be so sure of that.

Perhaps you should get to know a poster named Playmaker 26.

When the Flyers off season thread Part 1 started several weeks ago at DobberHockey, Playmaker posted that there was a huge shake up coming, that it definitely involved Carter and perhaps Richards as well. He posted that the Flyers were extremely unhappy with both of them. Their performance on ice and their behavior off it were being criticized by the Flyers. He was asked to verify his source inside the organization by the Mod, complied and things progressed from there.

The guy was lit up pretty good, but he called this entire thing, from it's very beginning, to the very end....to a tee and down to the last detail. Every move in advance. Where Richards and Carter were going, who was coming back.... and generally why the Flyers pulled the trigger.

I read and then re-read the thread. An amazing example of how social media works. I've never seen anything like it. After reading thru the thread, I'm of the opinion that the Flyers may have actually been behind the posts to some extent. This may have served as a way to get their side of the story out w/o blowing their cover or giving up too many less than flattering details.

I don't think the whole story is out there. It may never be, but my conclusion after reading the thread is that the Flyers organization thought this thru pretty carefully and did what they felt they had to do.

Kudos to them, IMO.
That is absolutely fascinating.

So, who's the mole here...?

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06-28-2011, 12:00 PM
  #252
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There were rumors swirling about Carter's departure for quite a while. That didn't come as a surprise at all.

There had also been tons of rumors that the Flyers with dissatisfied with Richards' off-ice demeanor for a long time. I was more surprised that they moved him, but it wasn't a total shock. Given the previous speculation, it actually made sense.

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06-28-2011, 12:02 PM
  #253
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More rumors about the other Richards...Brad ending up with the Flyers

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06-28-2011, 12:03 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
That is absolutely fascinating.

So, who's the mole here...?
Umm...isn't it obvious...RB, of course. (After he called the Erixon move, I figured he'd been hired as part of the Ranger PR team.)

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06-28-2011, 12:07 PM
  #255
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Umm...isn't it obvious...RB, of course. (After he called the Erixon move, I figured he'd been hired as part of the Ranger PR team.)
I actually typed "must be RB" and then deleted it, but wanted to leave it open for the free-for-all of other names.

Honestly, if he isn't working for the organization already, he should simply submit his history of posting here and he'll get the job.

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06-28-2011, 12:09 PM
  #256
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I think that acknowledging the gall that Philadelphia management showed here, and commenting on whether or not it was right, don't have to go hand in hand.

Obviously what they did is something that's extremely bold and potentially dangerous/rewarding. It all depends on how things turn out.

My only point is that there's no way on earth you can look immediately to next season, look at the players they acquired, the players they let go, and say that they got better.

Now granted stranger things have happened, and the idea of "team" and camaraderie and all that definitely play a role...one that might be intangible and that won't be known until the season progresses.

Still, numbers wise they got worse. And the supposed off ice issues that were such a big deal did nothing to stop the since departed players form taking this team away from 1 goal from the Stanley Cup.

That's what's mind boggling to me, and I don't understand how people can say this is a good move.

If the Flyers score the final goal against Chicago and win the Stanley Cup, are the off ice issues relevant still? No. It doesn't matter. They took this team to their first Cup in how many years?

But because Pat Kane scored the final goal and the Flyers came up on the other side of things, 12 months later everything must change. We need organizational shakeup. There's no way we can win with these players here.

IMO, I believe things got a little too personal in Flyer land. Whether it be Pronger, Laviolette, Holmgren, etc. Somewhere, someone along the line developed a type of vendetta. Someone became irritated.

While that is human nature, it's also not the most intelligent way to run things.

Simmonds and Schenn are not bad players. I get that .Voracek is not a bad player. JVR and Giroux have shown immense talent and potential to even improve that.

But when you look at what the Flyers got rid of, it's just something you don't do.

The whole thing is fascinating, but I for one hope they regress and fall flat on their face.

It shouldn't surprise anyone on HF however that there are so many who think this is great because "In 2-3 years the Flyers will be sooo sick ZOMG!"

This is HF Boards remember. Players like Schenn are more valuable than 40 goal scorers like Carter who are yesterday's news.

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06-28-2011, 12:13 PM
  #257
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It can very well end up being a fine trade for all teams involved in a few years.

But it's not going to be a fantastic trade by any means for the Flyers, and right now it's a bad trade. Mike Richards for a third liner and an unproven commodity?

Still glad they did it, even after the initial shock.

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06-28-2011, 12:23 PM
  #258
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Carter 26 years old.

2005-06 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 81 23 19 42
2006-07 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 62 14 23 37
2007-08 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 82 29 24 53
2008-09 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 82 46 38 84
2009-10 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 74 33 28 61
2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 80 36 30 66


Richards 26 years old. Captain. One of the best two way centers in the league.


2005-06 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 79 11 23 34
2006-07 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 59 10 22 32
2007-08 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 73 28 47 75
2008-09 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 79 30 50 80
2009-10 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 82 31 31 62
2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 81 23 43 66



Yup. Those are two players I would trade. Especially for Wayne Simmonds who has never totaled more than 16 goals or 40 points in any season. And Jakub Voracek who has never scored more than 16 goals and 50 points in any season. But at least they got Schenn. I mean, he's already a sure thing.

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06-28-2011, 12:37 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
1. We can do our best, and I think our best guess is they are worse off.

2. Keep drinking that koolaid. I'm sure the Flyers management has every reason to tell fans that to make these deals look better. Reality is another story, however.
So, you believe that Flyers management believes that they just made their team worse?

What would be their motivation to be worse?

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06-28-2011, 12:41 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
So, you believe that Flyers management believes that they just made their team worse?

What would be their motivation to be worse?
Personal issues. Not wanting to deal with said players anymore.

I think it was pretty obvious this came from up top more than anything. There's an obvious split here and Holmgren didn't seem the least bit like this was something he wanted to do.

Sometimes there's cracks in the foundation. Things like this happening are a result of that.

We all know that JVR getting more minutes isn't a bad thing. Giroux has shown what he can do. I just don't think those two players thrive now because of it. Now they will be the focus.

Simmonds and Schenn and Voracek aren't bad players. The Flyers will still be a good team. There's just no way they're better.

Sometimes you take one step back to take two forward. I'm sure that's their intention. Doesn't mean it's going to play out that way. And they've definitely taken steps back.

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06-28-2011, 12:53 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
There's an obvious split here and Holmgren didn't seem the least bit like this was something he wanted to do.
Perhaps. Never the less, he did it.

IMO, the best answer is the one that is most obvious. The Flyers made a very difficult decision. They had weeks to field the offers coming back and knew they were not getting what many would consider a fair price, and yet they did it any way.

To me, it's obvious they felt compelled to act. They did the best they could under difficult, but necessary circumstances. To them, at least.

What you, I or anyone else thinks is irrelevant. We're not them.

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06-28-2011, 12:57 PM
  #262
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wow did not know carter was 26 years old

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06-28-2011, 01:22 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
So, you believe that Flyers management believes that they just made their team worse?

What would be their motivation to be worse?
It strikes me as one of those situations where you have to take one step back before you can take two steps forward. If they felt that Richards and Carter were becoming problems, then you bite the bullet for a season in the hopes that it pays off a couple years later.

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06-28-2011, 01:31 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
So, you believe that Flyers management believes that they just made their team worse?

What would be their motivation to be worse?
No, I think Flyers management thinks they made themselves better, unfortunately they're delusional. They traded 2 26 year olds in their prime for 3 prospects who may or may not ever reach anywhere close to that point - and in reality, based on the law of averages, they probably come nowhere close.

They can do their best to spin it, to try to not disappoint their fans and the rest of the players, but that's just PR.

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06-28-2011, 01:34 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poeman View Post
wow did not know carter was 26 years old
Did you think he was older or younger than that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Perhaps. Never the less, he did it.

IMO, the best answer is the one that is most obvious. The Flyers made a very difficult decision. They had weeks to field the offers coming back and knew they were not getting what many would consider a fair price, and yet they did it any way.

To me, it's obvious they felt compelled to act. They did the best they could under difficult, but necessary circumstances. To them, at least.

What you, I or anyone else thinks is irrelevant. We're not them.

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, he did it. But if your boss is telling you to do something you either do it or lose your job. Everything I've read it seems fairly obvious this came from above Holmgren. He was given orders and he had to follow through with them, regardless of whether or not he thought it was the right decision.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but saying "necessary circumstances...to them at least," is a bit of an oxymoron of sorts. It's either necessary or not.

This is something they chose to do, and yes I'm sure they had their reasons.

Again it doesn't make it the right decision.

Sure what you or I think is irrelevant. Doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on it and enjoy seeing how it plays out.

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06-28-2011, 01:44 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Carter 26 years old.

2005-06 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 81 23 19 42
2006-07 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 62 14 23 37
2007-08 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 82 29 24 53
2008-09 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 82 46 38 84
2009-10 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 74 33 28 61
2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 80 36 30 66


Richards 26 years old. Captain. One of the best two way centers in the league.


2005-06 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 79 11 23 34
2006-07 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 59 10 22 32
2007-08 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 73 28 47 75
2008-09 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 79 30 50 80
2009-10 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 82 31 31 62
2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 81 23 43 66



Yup. Those are two players I would trade. Especially for Wayne Simmonds who has never totaled more than 16 goals or 40 points in any season. And Jakub Voracek who has never scored more than 16 goals and 50 points in any season. But at least they got Schenn. I mean, he's already a sure thing.
Right on the money here. I don't see Simmonds, Voracek, Schenn or Coutrier making up these points any time soon, hence my belief that the Flyers took a massive re-building step, a step that starts by going backwards. No matter how they spin this, to the fans who felt they were in their window, this is simply a massive and unexpected deflation. And this is for HF fans (you know, the guys that don't want to trade a prospect for a proven 30 goal scorer...), imagine how a regular win-now Philly fan must feel.

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06-28-2011, 01:50 PM
  #267
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So, you believe that Flyers management believes that they just made their team worse?

What would be their motivation to be worse?
Challenging to look at the individual production/contributions of the players and determine if they make a team better or worse, because the lockeroom is more complicated than that. Organization may see issues with team chemistry, or see problems with certain player(s) creating rifts among the team and/or affecting the team cohesiveness or attitude. The environment could be negatively impacting other members of the organization. Time will tell.

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06-28-2011, 02:09 PM
  #268
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Challenging to look at the individual production/contributions of the players and determine if they make a team better or worse, because the lockeroom is more complicated than that. Organization may see issues with team chemistry, or see problems with certain player(s) creating rifts among the team and/or affecting the team cohesiveness or attitude. The environment could be negatively impacting other members of the organization. Time will tell.
While it's impossible to argue the validity of this argument because it HAS to be what they were thinking, it still doesn't make any sense.

Again, 12 months ago they were one goal away from those two players leading them to their first Stanley Cup in 35 years.

Two months ago they were in the second round of the playoffs, and while the 4 games in and of themselves were not pretty, it's pretty hard to win when your goalies couldn't stop a beach ball.

Granted there will be those that argue that team defense and yada yada, but anyone who watched that series knows just how crushing so many of those goals the Bruins scored were, and how almost impossible it is to rebound from goals like that.

20 goals against in 4 games is not how you win a playoff series.

Was that enough to blow it all up? I don't think so.

I just don't see how these locker room issues/off ice issues were such a big deal when a year ago they were a goal away from a Championship and 2 months ago if they got any goaltending in the second round had a chance to make the ECF.

There has to be more to this story.

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06-28-2011, 02:14 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I think that acknowledging the gall that Philadelphia management showed here, and commenting on whether or not it was right, don't have to go hand in hand.

Obviously what they did is something that's extremely bold and potentially dangerous/rewarding. It all depends on how things turn out.

My only point is that there's no way on earth you can look immediately to next season, look at the players they acquired, the players they let go, and say that they got better.

Now granted stranger things have happened, and the idea of "team" and camaraderie and all that definitely play a role...one that might be intangible and that won't be known until the season progresses.

Still, numbers wise they got worse. And the supposed off ice issues that were such a big deal did nothing to stop the since departed players form taking this team away from 1 goal from the Stanley Cup.

That's what's mind boggling to me, and I don't understand how people can say this is a good move.

If the Flyers score the final goal against Chicago and win the Stanley Cup, are the off ice issues relevant still? No. It doesn't matter. They took this team to their first Cup in how many years?

But because Pat Kane scored the final goal and the Flyers came up on the other side of things, 12 months later everything must change. We need organizational shakeup. There's no way we can win with these players here.

IMO, I believe things got a little too personal in Flyer land. Whether it be Pronger, Laviolette, Holmgren, etc. Somewhere, someone along the line developed a type of vendetta. Someone became irritated.

While that is human nature, it's also not the most intelligent way to run things.

Simmonds and Schenn are not bad players. I get that .Voracek is not a bad player. JVR and Giroux have shown immense talent and potential to even improve that.

But when you look at what the Flyers got rid of, it's just something you don't do.

The whole thing is fascinating, but I for one hope they regress and fall flat on their face.

It shouldn't surprise anyone on HF however that there are so many who think this is great because "In 2-3 years the Flyers will be sooo sick ZOMG!"

This is HF Boards remember. Players like Schenn are more valuable than 40 goal scorers like Carter who are yesterday's news.
just to clarify, if the flyers scored in overtime they would have forced a game 7, not win the cup. doesnt really matter just letting you know

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06-28-2011, 02:16 PM
  #270
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just to clarify, if the flyers scored in overtime they would have forced a game 7, not win the cup. doesnt really matter just letting you know
You're right you're right. I don't know why in my memory it always seems like a Game 7 to me.

Regardless my point is still fairly the same. They were super close to a Cup. Right there. And had they scored that goal and forced a Game 7 we all know how hockey is. Nobody knows what the hell could've happened.

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06-28-2011, 02:47 PM
  #271
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I thought carter was way older...Like hitting his early 30

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06-28-2011, 02:59 PM
  #272
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No, I think Flyers management thinks they made themselves better, unfortunately they're delusional. They traded 2 26 year olds in their prime for 3 prospects who may or may not ever reach anywhere close to that point - and in reality, based on the law of averages, they probably come nowhere close.

They can do their best to spin it, to try to not disappoint their fans and the rest of the players, but that's just PR.
I think it's funny that without knowing all of the facts, that you believe you have a better handle on the situation than the folks that have all the facts.

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06-28-2011, 02:59 PM
  #273
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I thought carter was way older...Like hitting his early 30
Nope. They had two dynamic players in their prime locked up to cap friendly contracts for the next day.

Sounds like the ultimate predicament to meeeeeeee.

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06-28-2011, 03:04 PM
  #274
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Richards was pissed that Stevens got canned and was not the best of friends with Laviolette.

One of his first comments was how happy he was to have Terry Murray & Stevens as his coaches again after the trade.

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06-28-2011, 03:04 PM
  #275
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I think it's funny that without knowing all of the facts, that you believe you have a better handle on the situation than the folks that have all the facts.
It's almost as funny as someone who doesn't have all the facts saying they think it's funny when someone else comments without having all the facts.

You're right. Flyers management made a great trade. Two 26 year old stars who have four 30+ goal season between them, a 46 goal season, a 29 and 28 goal season, and season point totals of 84, 61, 66, and 80, 62, and 66 the last three seasons respectively.

For two decent players, a top prospect, and an 18 year old kid.

The Flyers would never make a trade to get worse. You know this cause you have all the facts, and we don't.

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