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Old
06-28-2011, 12:32 PM
  #76
beowulf
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While I don't completely disagree, I still think the article is a little to one sided and misleading. It mentions nothing of the fact that Wiz had to be acquired if not the team was not making the playoffs without some more offense from the back-end. As mentioned many a time, Sergei K would likely not have produced like that with the habs. I could go on but there is no point. In the end there have been some bad asset management and I would prefer another coach but all I can do is hope for the best and that some of the guys rebound and the offense produces like it should next year.

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06-28-2011, 01:01 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, of course I'm mad. I didn't want to get into it because this has been your position on management for a number of years. You're still very nostalgic over the old days, you bring them up at every opportunity when mentioning management. So, I feel it is utterly pointless to discuss this with you as your opinion is never going to change.

You say you call it the way you see it, but you can't even realize that you look at things from a pessimistic and negative way.

You criticize Gauthier for losing the 2nd rounder he gave up for Moore, and then losing him. But you don't even give him credit for going after Moore in the first place. He did not want to ink Moore for 2years, and so replaced him with a very cheap Halpern that ended up being a very suiting replacement. But hey, why mention that, we lost a damn 2nd round pick for someone that helped us a lot..Wait, we then lost that guy, so...ahhh what to think!! Let's just blame Gauthier.

You fail to give him credit for making moves throughout the season to adapt after injuries, like getting Sopel, Mara and Wiz. Instead you rather criticize him for the picks he lost in the process.
You point out that D'Agostini had a good year in St-Louis while Palushaj is doing good in Hamilton, as if it actually made that trade a bad one. Ya, Palushaj is doing well in Hamilton, he's only 21 and just finished a 57pt 68gp season with a 19pts in 19gp PO run. He could very well get called up throughout this season and see more ice time in the NHL. What's wrong with all that exactly?? Nothing is really wrong here, but D'Ago scored 21G in the NHL last year so there's obviously no point in waiting for Palushaj to show what he'll be capable of doing at 24 in the NHL. It was clearly a bad trade....: Did I also mention that St-Louis didn't qualify D'Ago?

Is Eller and Schultz a good enough return for Halak??? For Habsterix, the neutral, rational and observant man, of course not. I mean, it's not like the compensation for a RFA via offersheet for a player signed to Halak money would have been a 1st and a 3rd...Oh wait, yes it was. Eller and Schultz were not 1st and 3rd rounders?? I guess you forgot to think about that in your superb research because you were too busy just looking at the names exchanged.
And obviously, you forget to mention how Gauthier opted to keep Price instead of Halak. No, that's not worth talking about because it would require you actually giving management some Props. Nope, let's not do that. Let's just speculate, and question the fact we could have had more even though there's absolutely no example, none whatsoever, of goalkeepers being traded for better value. Matter of fact, Halak might be the keeper to have brought back the best return in recent years. Are you even aware of what Bryzgalov got the Yotes??? We're talking about a proven starter, that has maintained .920 Sv% over just under 70games on average teams for more than one year, and also stepped up in POs. I'll let you look it up since you seem to enjoy researching.

As for Boucher. If you respected Martin/Gauthier anywhere close to Boucher/Yzerman, you would be giving them credit instead of crapping on their every move. You absolutely praise TB for their success in the season and in the POs but fail to recognize their success in the POs was highly dependent of Roloson and St-Louis, very much like we counted on Halak and Cammy (maybe they had a little more contribution up front but they are an all out offensive team). They also got eliminated once Rollie came back to earth, like Halak did, but thanks to their better depth, they were able to last a bit longer. You praise Boucher for the jump in their regular season, but hey, it's not like they had Stamkos, Vinny, St-Louis, Hedman and Malone. They finished in the bottom 10 for GA, and actually had a worst ES GF/GA ratio than us despite us having three of our top 5 go through career lows, not having a top 6 most of the year and missing two key Dmen. Obviously, again, that would require you to give praise to Martin, but we all know you're incapable of that so you won't even dare giving him an ounce of merit, you'll give it to Price and Subban instead. In TB they have three bonafide superstars and they got through it thanks to them, but let's give credit to Boucher/Yzerman and forget to even mentioning their names.
Of course, C.Desjardins also needs to be brought up. I mean with his amazing contribution and all in TB, it really is a pity.

Yes, Habsterix, it really doesn't appear that you're holding a double standard here...

And while we're at it, might as well criticize management for losing the biggest key to our PP, Kirk Muller.. Yup, I seriously think we will drop down to the bottom part of the league now. Btw, didn't we struggled for a major part of the start of the season with our PP??..And weren't we part of the best PP teams the year before Muller joined??

Obviously, you can't see any good from management. I'm not mad, I don't really care, it's not like you're a new poster here so I knew this already. Pretty much why I kept my first post short and sweet . What I find funny however is that you actually seem to think your opinion is neutral and poised while other fans are overly optimistic.

There are very few rational posters on this board, and I hate to break it to you Habsterix, but you're not one of them.
I cried, that was beautiful

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Old
06-28-2011, 01:14 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Right, we have PK that has that bomb, and Weber certainly has one as well but he needed more time. Perhaps he'll be ready this season.
In any event, the problem isn't about that. You can criticize management for this, I don't think anybody will dispute you for it. The problem is that Habs focuses only on just doing that. He fails to acknowledge any of the good.
Ya, Wiz was a rental, how many rentals get traded for and not re-signed? That doesn't mean it's a great move, but it's a very common one. But if you want to point out the fact that those players only ended up as rentals, then shouldn't you also recognize that management at least was proactive in filling in some spots??
Why only bring out the ''they're gone'' side? Especially when you're trying to write an objective post (talking about Habsterix, not you)..

As for the trades he proposed. It was a 1st round pick + Tinordi, which is an overpayment. Habsterix will bring up the physical aspect, but Penner throws about one hit per game which is less than AK. He also scored 2G in 19GP with the Kings (only 6pts), and was rather disappointing in the POs. Certainly doesn't seem like the Kings got away with the better part of that trade, as of today.

As for a 1st for Brouwer, it's a horrible deal especially considering we ended up with Beaulieu. The man scored more than 20g once and never went over 40pts. He hits a whole lot though, so probably why Habsterix likes him. Penner barely hits however, so he probably just likes him because he's big.

You're right, getting them would change the dynamic of our team. Trading Plek/Gorges/Subban for Vinny would have also changed the dynamic of our team.
It doesn't mean our team would be better.

Penner/Brouwer will add up to about 6M (if not more). That means some salary would have needed to be shed. AK would be on the outs, and Habsterix would probably whine that Gauthier lost yet another asset.
I'm not defending Habsterix, people don't like his posts because they're smug and predictable, not as much because of the content. His deals actually make sense in the NHL, they're mostly fair market value unless your barometer for fair value is always fleecing the other team. Like I said before, I think the Wiz was a great, great trade, one of the best in recent years, even as a rental. I see him as a player who brings a dynamic, a better "bomb" than Subban as well (who can do it all btw, doesn't need another player to produce) to with Markov. I saw the same thing with Moore, so I'll be disapointed if he doesn't resign, especially with our cap space.

I don't care about Beaulieu, 18 other teams had no problem letting Montreal pick him up. He's a good bet at being an NHL player and a decent enough gamble at being a core player that some teams were willing to give a 2nd or some such to move up to get him. He's not any more valuable than the 5 other players picked before him, so Brouwer for a first is a little high, but not out of this world if that's the player you feel will add to your current team dynamic.

And that was my point about team dynamic, to add to it, which trading our good players for an inconsistent, overpaid, damaged one doesn't do, so I don't understand your example. I like Penner too, not because he hits (he does once in a while), but because his style is a good fit and yes, because he's huge which we don't have. Adding him+Brouwer would obviously mean Kostitsyn would be going the other in one of the deals. Just clarifying my position.

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Old
06-28-2011, 01:35 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nilan View Post
I'm not defending Habsterix, people don't like his posts because they're smug and predictable, not as much because of the content. His deals actually make sense in the NHL, they're mostly fair market value unless your barometer for fair value is always fleecing the other team. Like I said before, I think the Wiz was a great, great trade, one of the best in recent years, even as a rental. I see him as a player who brings a dynamic, a better "bomb" than Subban as well (who can do it all btw, doesn't need another player to produce) to with Markov. I saw the same thing with Moore, so I'll be disapointed if he doesn't resign, especially with our cap space.

I don't care about Beaulieu, 18 other teams had no problem letting Montreal pick him up. He's a good bet at being an NHL player and a decent enough gamble at being a core player that some teams were willing to give a 2nd or some such to move up to get him. He's not any more valuable than the 5 other players picked before him, so Brouwer for a first is a little high, but not out of this world if that's the player you feel will add to your current team dynamic.

And that was my point about team dynamic, to add to it, which trading our good players for an inconsistent, overpaid, damaged one doesn't do, so I don't understand your example. I like Penner too, not because he hits (he does once in a while), but because his style is a good fit and yes, because he's huge which we don't have. Adding him+Brouwer would obviously mean Kostitsyn would be going the other in one of the deals. Just clarifying my position.
My example was just to show that changing team dynamics isn't always better.
Penner+Brouwer would change things, would it really mean that our team improved over their tenure here?..I don't particularly think so. Penner would pretty much replace AK, they have comparable numbers although Penner hits less (and also costs 1.25M more). Then we would add Brouwer as a 3rd liner (which I have no problem against, but not for a 1st rounder).
Would the dynamic improve to the point of it being worth AK+Tinordi+Two 1st round picks??? Personally, I don't think so. I feel it would be lateral steps with a small improvement, simply not worth it.
You might have a difference of opinion there, and it's all good.

I would have tried to deal with Chicago for Byf and Ladd, I think those were great deals for Atlanta, but Penner/Brouwer for that cost, I'm not too interested in.

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Old
06-28-2011, 01:43 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
My example was just to show that changing team dynamics isn't always better.
Penner+Brouwer would change things, would it really mean that our team improved over their tenure here?..I don't particularly think so. Penner would pretty much replace AK, they have comparable numbers although Penner hits less (and also costs 1.25M more). Then we would add Brouwer as a 3rd liner (which I have no problem against, but not for a 1st rounder).
Would the dynamic improve to the point of it being worth AK+Tinordi+Two 1st round picks??? Personally, I don't think so. I feel it would be lateral steps with a small improvement, simply not worth it.
You might have a difference of opinion there, and it's all good.

I would have tried to deal with Chicago for Byf and Ladd, I think those were great deals for Atlanta, but Penner/Brouwer for that cost, I'm not too interested in.
Completely agreed with the last point on Buff and Ladd. Those two would've been perfect fits for years to come. Worth the assets as well.

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06-28-2011, 02:00 PM
  #81
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Glad to see the glass is still half empty, Trixie.

SOMEONE GET THIS MAN A DRINK.

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Old
06-28-2011, 02:50 PM
  #82
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I am not in love with Gauthier, but he's doing the job.

-Moore was costly, but way less than say Cullen that year. We could have retained him and eliminate any spare room for a last minute Wiz trade. Getting him was right, he was serviceable and cheaper than some. Letting him go was right, we ended up needing that caproom.
-Wiz was costly (was he), but we were in TERRIBLE need for a dman. We have Markov and Subban as #1 and #2 offensive Ds... FOR ONCE, we're letting the reigns to a young guy home grown (subban) instead of re-signing the older more experienced guy (wiz). trading for him was right. letting him go is not "wrong" since it's not our biggest need, we have other needs to address at that price.
-SK : we'd have been happy to get rid of him for nothing. + was useless in playoffs.
-Halak : we got more than the (no market) for Goalies.
-Desjardins... dunno, why bother for now.
-Latendresse... ok blunder. gamble that didn't pay for us. nonetheless, good gamble at that time. Poupou flies way faster than Lats-fatso.
etc

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06-28-2011, 02:56 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by dcyhabs View Post
If he gets tough players do you think Martin will play them? Martin's pet peeve is people who play the body instead of the puck.
Gauthier is Martin's boss.

If he cannot get Martin to use the assets that he obtains, then it all falls back on to PG for being an ineffective GM.

But this is all speculation. We shall soon see.

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06-28-2011, 03:05 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by dcyhabs View Post
If he gets tough players do you think Martin will play them? Martin's pet peeve is people who play the body instead of the puck.
He had no problem playing guys like Lambert, Murray, Hnidy, Roy and Neil during his time in Ottawa. He has no problem playing White either here.

So many misconceptions about Martin.

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06-28-2011, 03:07 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Wisniewski produced for the Habs. That was a great trade when PG was between a rock and a hard place (Markov injury).
I agree with you. Smart move by PG. However, what is he going to do with Wiz? Sign him or let him go and return back to the old and slow DMen that proved to be our undoing in the playoffs.

As a previous poster stated, this past season was a season of excuses. Injuries, lack of size on the forwards etc and so on. PG has a chance to show what he can or cannot do.

I have a sick feeling that the coming year will not be a good one for the Habs.

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06-28-2011, 03:11 PM
  #86
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I respect the fact that the OP has enough passion to start a blog about the habs. That takes passion and effort.

But when you read the article, it offers nothing new, no in depth analysis, no real back ground.... it is just a familiar echo of what has been said a million times by others with no supporting information.

Keep moving folks, nothing to see here.
I respect the fact that he made a blog and has the passion as well. All I'm saying is if all you're going to do is bash the team you apparently love and it's management, said passion is clearly misplaced.

I'm not saying he can't be bias, I'm not saying he can't have his opinion, but back it up.

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06-28-2011, 03:28 PM
  #87
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You have to say this about Gauthier's deadline rentals. 1. He has the foresight to move before the deadline and avoid getting caught in a bidding war. 2. The guys he brought in were good additions to areas of need that fit in with the team and were major contributors to what success the club had. For example, Wisnieski was both a far more effective player for his new team and far cheaper to acquire than Kaberle was.

I don't like the clubs record on asset management but that doesn't blind me to areas they are really good at. Which include finding NHL players at the draft in volume (a lot rarer then most realize), identifying goaltending talent (much like Nashville here, one of the best in the league) and building effective special teams units (consistantly good at both PP and PK).

Also while some may have wanted to go in a different direction, the re-build on the fly executed last season has to be one of the most effective in recent history. They replaced the 2009 line-up except a core of Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Markov, Hamrlik, Gorges and Price over the course of a year. They still remained in the playoffs both years with a notable improvement in overall team-play in the second year. Some teams have been rebuilding for years and still don't make the playoffs.

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06-28-2011, 03:28 PM
  #88
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The most significant irony is that the blog is trying to make the connection between the great legacy of this franchise that is being stripped away as the process of "Senatorfication" (that's what I'll call it), takes place. The complicit implication is that us as fans of such a great franchise don't deserve to be shortchanged in this way (I mean, we do drink $10 beers and buy jerseys).
Excellent post. During the Pollock era (and before) great things happened in Montreal. Savard iced some good teams & Houle didn't.

But comparing pre-cap & post-cap is just wrong.

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06-28-2011, 03:32 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post

Also while some may have wanted to go in a different direction, the re-build on the fly executed last season has to be one of the most effective in recent history. They replaced the 2009 line-up except a core of Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Markov, Hamrlik, Gorges and Price over the course of a year. They still remained in the playoffs both years with a notable improvement in overall team-play in the second year. Some teams have been rebuilding for years and still don't make the playoffs.
I've been thinking about this for some time, but could never express it as clear as you have done just now. Especially the bolded part in red. Really incredible when you think about it.

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06-28-2011, 03:46 PM
  #90
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Nope, I do that on purpose. Why? Simply because I call a spade a spade. I call it the way I see it. If I wanted to win a popularity contest, I'd write about how great the organization is, how great the players are, how they can do no wrong. It's go with the popular belief, follow the herd like everyone else. It's not as much putting anyone down as it is painting the picture the way I see it. To the readers to use it in a constructive or destructive manner at their leisure.
I disagree. I'm starting to think you're just using the Charlie Sheen model of any attention even negative is better than no attention. Maybe to get more readers, who knows really. But it certainly isn't calling a spade a spade. You aren't calling it how you see it if you are clearly not seeing the good side of things too. And I'm not saying there was a good side of every trade, but the times there is a good side you neglect to notice it. How is that calling it how you see it? I'd say that's more so calling it the way it fits your argument.

Either way I know these words are lost on you. You're one of those people who will hate regardless of the moves being made unless they're basically your moves or we win the cup. Nothing short of winning the cup would change your mind. Heck if we had won the cup in the last two seasons I bet you'd be making excuses for why we were very lucky and it had nothing to do with PG/Gainey

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06-28-2011, 03:58 PM
  #91
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calling things they way you see it is nice... as long as you have both eyes open!

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06-28-2011, 04:05 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Also while some may have wanted to go in a different direction, the re-build on the fly executed last season has to be one of the most effective in recent history. They replaced the 2009 line-up except a core of Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Markov, Hamrlik, Gorges and Price over the course of a year. They still remained in the playoffs both years with a notable improvement in overall team-play in the second year. Some teams have been rebuilding for years and still don't make the playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I've been thinking about this for some time, but could never express it as clear as you have done just now. Especially the bolded part in red. Really incredible when you think about it.
Should have been bolded in blue.


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06-28-2011, 04:48 PM
  #93
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Another cry baby article.

"Argh why can't they manage this team the way I want them to!!!"

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06-28-2011, 05:32 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
Another cry baby article.

"Argh why can't they manage this team the way I want them to!!!"
to blanket it completely as 'cry-baby' is disrespectful. you, me might not agree with some of it, but get ready for cunneyworth as an assistant - oh look another ex-senator, who's comfy in the jacques martin country club. it's a bit sickening to be honest. I guess he's a 'logical' selection, but we all whined when the org. was filled with incompetent ex habs like houle and cournoyer and now we've become the ottawa repository. heaven forbid we have 'outside' voices...those seem to find work elsewhere --muller, boucher...etc..

what happens if another martin 'yes' man deboer (who i like) get the 'dogs job? the point will be confirmed for the umpteenth time that martin simply cannot work with anyone who fits outside his pin head paradigm about coaching
guess molson is not really paying attention.

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06-28-2011, 05:36 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
to blanket it completely as 'cry-baby' is disrespectful. you, me might not agree with some of it, but get ready for cunneyworth as an assistant - oh look another ex-senator, who's comfy in the jacques martin country club. it's a bit sickening to be honest. I guess he's a 'logical' selection, but we all whined when the org. was filled with incompetent ex habs like houle and cournoyer and now we've become the ottawa repository. heaven forbid we have 'outside' voices...those seem to find work elsewhere --muller, boucher...etc..

what happens if another martin 'yes' man deboer (who i like) get the 'dogs job? the point will be confirmed for the umpteenth time that martin simply cannot work with anyone who fits outside his pin head paradigm about coaching
guess molson is not really paying attention.
Martin's results with the Habs are good.

Stop over-analyzing.

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06-28-2011, 05:41 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
to blanket it completely as 'cry-baby' is disrespectful. you, me might not agree with some of it, but get ready for cunneyworth as an assistant - oh look another ex-senator, who's comfy in the jacques martin country club. it's a bit sickening to be honest. I guess he's a 'logical' selection, but we all whined when the org. was filled with incompetent ex habs like houle and cournoyer and now we've become the ottawa repository. heaven forbid we have 'outside' voices...those seem to find work elsewhere --muller, boucher...etc..

what happens if another martin 'yes' man deboer (who i like) get the 'dogs job? the point will be confirmed for the umpteenth time that martin simply cannot work with anyone who fits outside his pin head paradigm about coaching
guess molson is not really paying attention.
Every coach hires (or gets their boss to hire) people they've worked with and are comfortable with.

No idea what Muller and Boucher have to do with anything. Both worked for the organization, both wanted a job that was already taken so moved elsewhere to pursue their goals and dreams. It's not a matter of Martin not being able to work with them. If both wanted to be assistant coaches they'd be in Montreal right now.

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06-28-2011, 05:49 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Every coach hires (or gets their boss to hire) people they've worked with and are comfortable with.

No idea what Muller and Boucher have to do with anything. Both worked for the organization, both wanted a job that was already taken so moved elsewhere to pursue their goals and dreams. It's not a matter of Martin not being able to work with them. If both wanted to be assistant coaches they'd be in Montreal right now.
how do you know boucher was ever offered an assistant coaching position?
i get your point and understand it, my point is, i'd like to see this organization find fresh voices outside the comfy group that is in place mostly because a ******** like boivin wanted to appease three journalists from la presse.

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06-28-2011, 06:03 PM
  #98
Bill McNeal
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
how do you know boucher was ever offered an assistant coaching position?
i get your point and understand it, my point is, i'd like to see this organization find fresh voices outside the comfy group that is in place mostly because a ******** like boivin wanted to appease three journalists from la presse.
I could be mistaken, but I remember it being reported that he was offered a role as a formality. Obviously he didn't take it because it's not what he wanted.

But considering Martin kept Muller around from the old regime when he could have easily replaced him with one of his guys, I think the idea that he surrounds himself only with his guys is overstated.

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06-28-2011, 06:22 PM
  #99
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
how do you know boucher was ever offered an assistant coaching position?
i get your point and understand it, my point is, i'd like to see this organization find fresh voices outside the comfy group that is in place mostly because a ******** like boivin wanted to appease three journalists from la presse.
You want a fresh group. The one that's currently in place has been there for 2years.
The first year it was a bit of a mess. Half the team was new, the other half just finished an era of complete lack of direction under Carbo. Most were undisciplined outside the ice and out of shape. To make matters worse, we suffered many key injuries to the point that we once dressed half of the Dogs team.
Still, encouraging signs were shown in the POs by many of our new comers.
The progression over year one and two was obvious after this year. Players came into camp knowing what to expect from Martin. Most were in much better shape than the previous season and the cohesion among them was clear. A better understanding of the system was noticeable.
We didn't struggle to make the POs despite again missing key players to injuries. It was actually encouraging to see management recognise needs and and go after them.

I don't care if you feel these guys are sticking with each other because they're comfortable with. Our team has improved and is on the same improvement path for next year.
Ottawa might not have won the cup, but they were still a very good team. So far, there's no reason to really doubt them. It's not like they traded away Subban or Price, and opted not to re-sign Plek or Markov.

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06-28-2011, 06:58 PM
  #100
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
Martin's results with the Habs are good.

Stop over-analyzing.
This ^^^^^ is why I continue to say that the Habs have not won the Cup in so long that a lot of fans are happy with mediocrity.

We made the playoffs two seasons ago and lost before making the SCF.
We made the playoffs last season and were eliminated in the first round.

These results are good??????

Whatever happened to winning a Cup being the standard for a season? Or hell, even making it to the Finals?

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