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Reports Flyers Trade Carter to CBJ, Richards to LAK; Sign Bryzgalov for 9 years

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Old
06-28-2011, 04:07 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
While it's impossible to argue the validity of this argument because it HAS to be what they were thinking, it still doesn't make any sense.

Again, 12 months ago they were one goal away from those two players leading them to their first Stanley Cup in 35 years.

Two months ago they were in the second round of the playoffs, and while the 4 games in and of themselves were not pretty, it's pretty hard to win when your goalies couldn't stop a beach ball.

Granted there will be those that argue that team defense and yada yada, but anyone who watched that series knows just how crushing so many of those goals the Bruins scored were, and how almost impossible it is to rebound from goals like that.

20 goals against in 4 games is not how you win a playoff series.

Was that enough to blow it all up? I don't think so.

I just don't see how these locker room issues/off ice issues were such a big deal when a year ago they were a goal away from a Championship and 2 months ago if they got any goaltending in the second round had a chance to make the ECF.

There has to be more to this story.
Previously in this thread, I stated that I thought Philly hurt their team in the short-term, but may be a stronger team in the long term depending on how these players pan out. They definitely took a step back right now, but depending on how players like Voracek and especially Schenn develop, they may look back on this trade and be happy they made it. That #8 overall pick may pay dividends for them but that won't be for several years.

Also stated that the timing was highly questionable as Pronger is on the tail end of his career, Timmonen only has 2 years left, and they hurt their offensive depth up front to bolster their goaltending, but previous spent a lot of money to bolster their defensive depth (see Pronger acquisition & Meszaros trade) to compensate for lack of goaltending.

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06-28-2011, 04:13 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I think it's funny that without knowing all of the facts, that you believe you have a better handle on the situation than the folks that have all the facts.
I think it's funny too - seriously! They're idiots.

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06-28-2011, 05:09 PM
  #278
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Originally posted by robruckus

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, he did it. But if your boss is telling you to do something you either do it or lose your job. Everything I've read it seems fairly obvious this came from above Holmgren. He was given orders and he had to follow through with them, regardless of whether or not he thought it was the right decision.

Please excuse in advance my long responses and poor punctuation. The nuns never could bang that stuff into my head.

First off I should state that I come from a position that says this whole episode is huge for NHL hockey. It's being kept on the down low because you have very expensive brands, reputations and other things that have to be considered. But IMO a huge precedent has been set with implications far down the road for the NHL. I'm not in any way trying to be melodramatic. I HATE the Flyers with a passion that goes back many years, but this is bigger than that.

That said, your statement above is a huge leap of careless speculation, IMO. It's calls into question the integrity of the entire Flyers organization. Something I'd care not to do... not being in possession of anything that indicates fact. Things I've read say that Homer was dialed in from the start. Richards at least was brought in and "issues" were discussed. The "consensus" was that during and after the discussions it was felt that a "wall" was being thrown up by Richards. It was inferred that the decision on Carter had already been made, but at this point Richards began to be shopped as well. I think it's fair to say that Holmgren did not want to do this. But it's also fair to say that he had to be part of those discussions and saw what everyone else saw. He was instrumental in the whole process of drafting, shaping, and developing these guys. He may not have wanted to do this but to say that Snider bullied him into it is a huge, and unfair statement about an entire organization and the people in it.

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Originally Posted by robruckus

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but saying "necessary circumstances...to them at least," is a bit of an oxymoron of sorts. It's either necessary or not.

This is something they chose to do, and yes I'm sure they had their reasons.

Again it doesn't make it the right decision.


Well, reading what I read makes it absolutely the right decision as Playmaker 26's posts would indicate. If two of your star players who are the face of hockey in your town are in fact ripping your team apart at the seams and are unrepentant or oblivious to it, then the Flyers not only made the right decision, they were backed into a pretty tight corner while doing it. Carter and Richards were a cancer that had to be cut out. Painful as that would be, as bad as it would make the organization look, and as much as it would hurt them short term. Based on Playmaker's post's the Flyers are to be commended not ridiculed. I just feel strongly about that. As much as I HATE the Flyers as a team.

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Originally Posted by robruckus

Sure what you or I think is irrelevant. Doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on it and enjoy seeing how it plays out.

Perhaps you right. I don't mean to come down hard on you, really. Maybe I'm getting too old for this sort of thing. I just feel that if your going to have an opinion, try and base it on facts as much as you can. Especially when the issues are important. This is the biggest thing to have happened in hockey in some time. A huge precedent has been set. Just my opinion, but the Flyers did everyone a huge favor.

Boy, that last part is tough to swallow.

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06-28-2011, 05:44 PM
  #279
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Bas***ds

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15) Final note on Philly: Other teams were just rolling their eyes when Sean Couturier fell to them. "Every year, there is one player who gets picked apart for no good reason," said one scout. "This year, he's the guy." One Eastern Conference exec said, "We were saying beforehand that someone picking 6-10 was going to get a steal with him. We were hoping it would be a Western team, though." Another scout: "The Flyers are really good with French players. That will help Couturier, too."
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/ellio...-thoughts.html

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06-28-2011, 07:53 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Quote:
Originally posted by robruckus

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, he did it. But if your boss is telling you to do something you either do it or lose your job. Everything I've read it seems fairly obvious this came from above Holmgren. He was given orders and he had to follow through with them, regardless of whether or not he thought it was the right decision.

Please excuse in advance my long responses and poor punctuation. The nuns never could bang that stuff into my head.

First off I should state that I come from a position that says this whole episode is huge for NHL hockey. It's being kept on the down low because you have very expensive brands, reputations and other things that have to be considered. But IMO a huge precedent has been set with implications far down the road for the NHL. I'm not in any way trying to be melodramatic. I HATE the Flyers with a passion that goes back many years, but this is bigger than that.

That said, your statement above is a huge leap of careless speculation, IMO. It's calls into question the integrity of the entire Flyers organization. Something I'd care not to do... not being in possession of anything that indicates fact. Things I've read say that Homer was dialed in from the start. Richards at least was brought in and "issues" were discussed. The "consensus" was that during and after the discussions it was felt that a "wall" was being thrown up by Richards. It was inferred that the decision on Carter had already been made, but at this point Richards began to be shopped as well. I think it's fair to say that Holmgren did not want to do this. But it's also fair to say that he had to be part of those discussions and saw what everyone else saw. He was instrumental in the whole process of drafting, shaping, and developing these guys. He may not have wanted to do this but to say that Snider bullied him into it is a huge, and unfair statement about an entire organization and the people in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but saying "necessary circumstances...to them at least," is a bit of an oxymoron of sorts. It's either necessary or not.

This is something they chose to do, and yes I'm sure they had their reasons.

Again it doesn't make it the right decision.


Well, reading what I read makes it absolutely the right decision as Playmaker 26's posts would indicate. If two of your star players who are the face of hockey in your town are in fact ripping your team apart at the seams and are unrepentant or oblivious to it, then the Flyers not only made the right decision, they were backed into a pretty tight corner while doing it. Carter and Richards were a cancer that had to be cut out. Painful as that would be, as bad as it would make the organization look, and as much as it would hurt them short term. Based on Playmaker's post's the Flyers are to be commended not ridiculed. I just feel strongly about that. As much as I HATE the Flyers as a team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus

Sure what you or I think is irrelevant. Doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on it and enjoy seeing how it plays out.

Perhaps you right. I don't mean to come down hard on you, really. Maybe I'm getting too old for this sort of thing. I just feel that if your going to have an opinion, try and base it on facts as much as you can. Especially when the issues are important. This is the biggest thing to have happened in hockey in some time. A huge precedent has been set. Just my opinion, but the Flyers did everyone a huge favor.

Boy, that last part is tough to swallow.


I understand what you're saying. I guess it depends on what you're reading/what you've heard and where your opinion on it comes down as far as how you perceive the move.

That much isn't relevant to me. I couldn't really care less if people think that the organization should be applauded or laughed at for what they've done. It is what it is at this point.

The points about it being speculation on my part are fine. I just don't understand how it's not speculation on the differing opinion as well. I don't think there's enough to prove either way what went on.

I also think that if we're speculating, it's much harder to commend the organization for a hypothetical rift that was so tumultuous it caused their team to go to Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals and then finish with 106 points the following year. If that's the predicament they're in, then sign me up for that ****. Hell, I'll take Dubi out partying every weekend.

Again, whether or not anyone agrees with what they did for whatever reason is fine. You're just never going to convince me that removing Richards and Carter and adding the players they did makes them a better team. Because it doesn't.

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06-28-2011, 09:19 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
You're just never going to convince me that removing Richards and Carter and adding the players they did makes them a better team. Because it doesn't.
Agreed. I don't think they are a better team. I think that on paper at least, they probably see that. When your team is melting down because of the behavior of players who are supposed to be your leaders....but are in fact are the opposite, you bite the bullet and get rid of them.

They did the best they could under very difficult circumstances. I applaud the fact that they had some balls and pulled the trigger. No player or players should feel they are above the team. That is the only way this could have happened.

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06-28-2011, 10:00 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
So, you believe that Flyers management believes that they just made their team worse?

What would be their motivation to be worse?
Flyers management also gave Ilya Bryzgalov a nine year deal, so while they obviously aren't trying to make themselves worse, it's pretty fair to be able to say that maybe they just don't always make the right moves. Do you think Sather thought the Rangers were worse when he signed Drury, Gomez, and Redden with those contracts? Ofcourse not, but that doesn't absolve him from the criticism he rightfully deserved for those all being awful moves.*

*Please do not say that these were not awful moves because Gomez turned into McDonagh, etc. Sather didn't sign Gomez with the intention of trading him to Montreal.

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06-28-2011, 10:21 PM
  #283
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Also, this is a professional hockey team not kindergarten. Honestly all this talk of chemistry is ********. Plenty of great teams had conflict, and many were better for it not worse. Furthermore, talent like what the Flyers traded doesnt grow on trees. You don't replace Carter or Richards easilly if at all - both of those guys would be the Rangers' best player and the Flyers just traded both of them away for kids.

I don't care how much whining and crying was going on - when you are lucky enough to have top end players on affordable contracts you make it work at all costs.

All this stuff about chemistry or cap space is a pure smoke screen, nothing more.

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06-29-2011, 12:06 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
Also, this is a professional hockey team not kindergarten. Honestly all this talk of chemistry is ********. Plenty of great teams had conflict, and many were better for it not worse. Furthermore, talent like what the Flyers traded doesnt grow on trees. You don't replace Carter or Richards easilly if at all - both of those guys would be the Rangers' best player and the Flyers just traded both of them away for kids.

I don't care how much whining and crying was going on - when you are lucky enough to have top end players on affordable contracts you make it work at all costs.

All this stuff about chemistry or cap space is a pure smoke screen, nothing more.
Which is exactly why I think there's more to the story. It just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Agreed. I don't think they are a better team. I think that on paper at least, they probably see that. When your team is melting down because of the behavior of players who are supposed to be your leaders....but are in fact are the opposite, you bite the bullet and get rid of them.

They did the best they could under very difficult circumstances. I applaud the fact that they had some balls and pulled the trigger. No player or players should feel they are above the team. That is the only way this could have happened.
I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree it was a bold move by management.

Where I guess we disagree is that I don't see where there was evidence of this making the team melt down. Certainly it wasn't in the results. And if the think they're closer to a Stanley Cup now then
they were had they kept the two of them, it's crazy.

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06-29-2011, 12:29 AM
  #285
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Makes you wonder what really happened. As you wrote Robruckus, there's more to this. You don't change your whole team around like this for no reason..I assume there is a reason, I just don't know what it could be. Did they do something unforgivable off the ice that wasn't reported? You really gotta wonder what could have caused this.

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06-29-2011, 11:47 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
It's almost as funny as someone who doesn't have all the facts saying they think it's funny when someone else comments without having all the facts.

You're right. Flyers management made a great trade. Two 26 year old stars who have four 30+ goal season between them, a 46 goal season, a 29 and 28 goal season, and season point totals of 84, 61, 66, and 80, 62, and 66 the last three seasons respectively.

For two decent players, a top prospect, and an 18 year old kid.

The Flyers would never make a trade to get worse. You know this cause you have all the facts, and we don't.
You believe that the Flyers consciously tried to make themselves worse and are questioning someone who thinks that management never tries to hurt their team. Explain why management would do this.

The exceptions would be money problems or looking for a first pick in the draft. Neither is the case here.

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06-29-2011, 12:02 PM
  #287
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You believe that the Flyers consciously tried to make themselves worse and are questioning someone who thinks that management never tries to hurt their team. Explain why management would do this.

The exceptions would be money problems or looking for a first pick in the draft. Neither is the case here.
And your argument is that the Flyers are a better team after the trades then they were before.

My point the entire time is that there is more to this. Do I think the Flyers believe they are a better team now then they were? No, I don't. I don't think they do either.

What I think is that they FELT this was a move they had to make for bigger reasons. I think it really did become personal with the two of them.

As I said I don't think that you can show me anywhere in the results how this was a serious problem. But yet off the ice management and the media seemed to have a field day with this.

This looks like the classic situation where Richards and Carter really rubbed people the wrong way and those people did not want to deal with them anymore.

Are the Flyers a better team now? No.

But the Flyers were able to get rid of their headaches and at the same time get back a lot of talent in return.

But if you're asking me if I think the Flyers made these moves knowing they would be a worse hockey team on the ice in the short term, then yes. They wanted to start over without these players, whatever their reasoning. That was a consequence of doing what they did.

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06-29-2011, 12:57 PM
  #288
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Why is the time frame for evaluating these moves only the present? What if the Flyers feel they will be a better team in the long run, both with the immediate cap flexibility (allowing them to sign a #1 goaltender) and the return they got?

Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier, 3rd.

The cumulative impact of these newly acquired players may be greater than that of Carter & Richards. Time will tell.

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06-29-2011, 01:27 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier, 3rd.

The cumulative impact of these newly acquired players may be greater than that of Carter & Richards. Time will tell.
Because how many prospects turn into 70-80 pt players? Answer: not many.

Even in the future, the chance these trades help them is small.

Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier are all flashy prospect names, but if you take the names out of it and just go by numbers, the chances any of them come close to the production of either Richards or Carter is small, and then you want them to equal both? In Flyer Fantasyland all your dreams come true, but in the NHL reality still rules.

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06-29-2011, 01:56 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by NYRangers16 View Post
Makes you wonder what really happened. As you wrote Robruckus, there's more to this. You don't change your whole team around like this for no reason..I assume there is a reason, I just don't know what it could be. Did they do something unforgivable off the ice that wasn't reported? You really gotta wonder what could have caused this.
I live in the area. Lets just say I have a hockey player in the family who is exactly the age of these two guys, is also single and frequents the same places both here and at the beach. No more details. I can tell you that both players are even more upset today than they were when the initial shock set in. Especially Carter. They didn't think it would ever happen. They were misled. They never did anything more unforgivable than any other young millionaire with a career long contract, living the good life, might have done. That, in itself provides lot's of leeway. Did they push the envelope regarding being professional at times? Yup! Did Chris "old school" Pronger have a major role in the situation? Yup! Did Coach Laviolette play a big part? Yup! Did Pronger chastise other young players about their play at times? Yup! Was he the Captain? Nope! Did the Captain do it enough? Opinions differ. Assuming there was a choice, did the other young players respond in a positive way to Pronger's in your face brand of "encouragement"? Nope! Were the Coach's demands and tactics wearing thin? Yup!
Opinion:
Flyers management could have handled this better. They helped create the problem with career long contracts to very young, best friends and anointed one the Captain. Previous coaches, organization guys, lived with the decision and paid the price. When you have a couple of young emerging stars starting to emulate the young leaders and not the Coach or the old guy (Pronger) it gets the attention of the big boss. To me, that was the deciding factor. Upshall and Lupel were jettisoned earlier for similar reasons. Carter was going to be next but that was never going to be accepted by his best friend, any more than losing the "C" would have been. No way in hell was the organization going to cut loose Giroux or JVR. So it is what it is. Holmgren was likewise more emotional a day or two later. He did his job, as directed, but knew it should have been handled better. Carter and Richards are now looking at ten plus years at less than the going rate in Ohio and California and never thought it would happen. Even if they should have. Healing on both sides is going to take a long time. Especially with an entire summer to brood over it.

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06-29-2011, 02:22 PM
  #291
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Interesting take on the situation. Taking your inside info at face value my impression is that it was in the Flyers' best interest to make it work. It's about talent, on the ice performance, and winning. Personality conflicts have to be overcome...you can't let stupid drama get in the way. The result is that nobody wins, literally or figuratively. The Flyers pretty much tore themselves apart, not over talent, or for the purpose of winning, but because they couldn't get along. Kinda amazing and a shock to everyone.

If you're running an Org how do you let this happen? This set that team back years.

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06-29-2011, 02:24 PM
  #292
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Because how many prospects turn into 70-80 pt players? Answer: not many.
Richards has only hit the 60's the last 2 seasons.

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Even in the future, the chance these trades help them is small.
How can you determine that now?

Quote:
Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier are all flashy prospect names, but if you take the names out of it and just go by numbers, the chances any of them come close to the production of either Richards or Carter is small, and then you want them to equal both? In Flyer Fantasyland all your dreams come true, but in the NHL reality still rules.
Did you overlook the word 'cumulative' in my post? No one player in this deal needs to trump the production of Carter or Richards alone. Voracek already hovering around the 50 point mark. Simmonds in the 30-40 point range. Schenn would be a consensus Top 5 prospect in the world, he could end up being a better player than both Carter & Richards when all is said and done. Elliot Friedman labeling the Couturier selection at #8, the steal of the draft.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm not going to let my contempt for the Flyers create bias when evaluating these moves.

This could go either way. Philly, yes, has weaker depth up front at the moment, but if these younger players pan out, they may very well be a stronger team in the long run.


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06-29-2011, 03:41 PM
  #293
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Interesting take on the situation. Taking your inside info at face value my impression is that it was in the Flyers' best interest to make it work. It's about talent, on the ice performance, and winning. Personality conflicts have to be overcome...you can't let stupid drama get in the way. The result is that nobody wins, literally or figuratively. The Flyers pretty much tore themselves apart, not over talent, or for the purpose of winning, but because they couldn't get along. Kinda amazing and a shock to everyone.

If you're running an Org how do you let this happen? This set that team back years.
Well, the performance wasn't there every night. Enough to win most nights but you have a task master type coach in town. You also have a very knowledgeable fan base that will get on you because of style, as easily as effort, and results. These two were loved, so they were never booed, but there were loud murmurs. Losing four straight to the Bruins was not acceptable. I suspected something was up when Carter didn't play a few games in the playoffs due to a sudden previously undisclosed "knee injury", then returned and looked fine. Hardly any discussion at all by the local media was the tip off. It may have been a coach's message to the team and management. Just guessing here but the lack of the usual fanatic coverage stuck out like a sore thumb. Richards didn't exactly excel, either. It might have just been a "perfect storm" series of events. It did shock the world in these parts.

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06-29-2011, 03:42 PM
  #294
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And your argument is that the Flyers are a better team after the trades then they were before.

My point the entire time is that there is more to this. Do I think the Flyers believe they are a better team now then they were? No, I don't. I don't think they do either.

What I think is that they FELT this was a move they had to make for bigger reasons. I think it really did become personal with the two of them.

As I said I don't think that you can show me anywhere in the results how this was a serious problem. But yet off the ice management and the media seemed to have a field day with this.

This looks like the classic situation where Richards and Carter really rubbed people the wrong way and those people did not want to deal with them anymore.

Are the Flyers a better team now? No.

But the Flyers were able to get rid of their headaches and at the same time get back a lot of talent in return.

But if you're asking me if I think the Flyers made these moves knowing they would be a worse hockey team on the ice in the short term, then yes. They wanted to start over without these players, whatever their reasoning. That was a consequence of doing what they did.
The Flyers felt the the team as constructed will be better going forward than before the trade. That is stone cold fact.

Off ice issues that we may never know about are obviously the impetus for the trade.

Perhaps they thought team was close to implosion.

To presume they acted against their own best interests is silly. Whether they turn out to be right is going to be tough to determine.

I just understand that something majorly wrong has been corrected in their eyes and they know infinitely more about this than anyone posting here.

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06-29-2011, 03:46 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Richards has only hit the 60's the last 2 seasons.



How can you determine that now?



Did you overlook the word 'cumulative' in my post? No one player in this deal needs to trump the production of Carter or Richards alone. Voracek already hovering around the 50 point mark. Simmonds in the 30-40 point range. Schenn would be a consensus Top 5 prospect in the world, he could end up being a better player than both Carter & Richards when all is said and done. Elliot Friedman labeling the Couturier selection at #8, the steal of the draft.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm not going to let my contempt for the Flyers create bias when evaluating these moves.

This could go either way. Philly, yes, has weaker depth up front at the moment, but if these younger players pan out, they may very well be a stronger team in the long run.
Having one player who's a 80 point player is better than having 2 guys who are 40 point guys. And if they DON'T pan out, this trade was bad now AND in the future.

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06-29-2011, 04:04 PM
  #296
wolfgaze
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Having one player who's a 80 point player is better than having 2 guys who are 40 point guys. And if they DON'T pan out, this trade was bad now AND in the future.
Neither of those guys are perennial 80 point players... Both players put up exactly 66 points last season... Carter has not been good in the playoffs either: 47 playoff games, just 13 goals and 21 points while going -14. There's more in play than just regular season performances. And I'd argue under certain circumstances, it's better to have more depth among a handful of players than having a high end player who has to shoulder more of the scoring load. If you rely on a 50 goal scorer to account for a significant portion of your scoring, and he gets injured, your offense takes a big hit. However, if you have multiple forwards who are good for around 20-25 goals, and any single forward gets injured, your offense does not take as big of a hit because of how the depth is spread out. This needs to be looked at in a broader context and outside of the scope of any individual player's regular season point production. The sum is the total of the parts, and Philly got back several young players from these transactions.

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