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Old
06-29-2011, 11:33 AM
  #26
Zetterberg4Captain
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Detroit is always the safe and boring organization in the trades-department.

This would never happen.

We always rely on our old guys bailing us out for yet another season, and another, and then another.

Guess what, it isn't working and we can't hope to get as lucky with the picks as we've been in the past.

We'll never get a new Lidstrom or Datsyuk on the 6th round.

Prepare for another dead wings era, I've said this for a couple of years now - and it will happen unless this organization agrees to get rid of a couple of the older players for picks - and then have a couple of so-so years.

I say.

Let's see what we can get for Hudler, Franzen, Filppula, Cleary, Stuart and Zetterberg (yeah, I said it. The time has come to shop him since his legs and back are killing him).
yikes thats a little drasstic.

i agree we need to be proactive and i agree overextending outselves by "re-uping" old veterans because we dont have the heart to say no will in the long run hurt us more then help, but, our prospect pool is very deep so our future looks very bright.

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06-29-2011, 11:52 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by pokerandpucks View Post
There isn't a defenseman in the NHL I would make that deal for right now. One, there aren't any guys that much better than Kronwall to make it worthwhile long term. If Chara was younger, or Pronger was 27 instead of 93, maybe. Two, they'd still need a defenseman after that and they lose one of their best forward prospects and a first round pick.
There are a couple guys who I'd make that deal for, no questions asked:
I'd make that deal for Weber.
I'd make that deal for Doughty.

Then there are a bunch of guys for whom I'd consider it. Johnson. Green. Letang. Hedman, Myers
I don't expect Kronwall, because of the injuries he's had, to play effectively until his late 30s. I am also not sold on Tatar's NHL ability.

Of course, it's not exactly a realistic move. I'd want to make sure I can get my hands on a vet, too.

But my point is that the price to get a Mike Green is outrageously high, and not something that a team in the Wings' position will realistically consider.


Think about it this way. If you had Green, would you trade him for Kronwall (injury prone himself), Flip (soft, not that productive) and Tatar?
Probably not.

Trading for Green is prohibitively expensive for a team in the Wings' situation.

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06-29-2011, 12:02 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
yikes thats a little drasstic.

i agree we need to be proactive and i agree overextending outselves by "re-uping" old veterans because we dont have the heart to say no will in the long run hurt us more then help, but, our prospect pool is very deep so our future looks very bright.
They really need to make the commitment to turning over the forwards next year and into next summer. Look at the model provided by the Bruins and Nucks:

Bruins' top playoff scorers (name/age):
Krejci/24
Bergeron/25
Lucic/22
Marchand/22-23 (may birthday)
Horton/25-26 (may birthday)
Significant contribution from 19 yr old Seguin

Nucks' top 13 playoff scorers were all 30 yrs old or younger.

It's not a coincidence that they made it through the grind all the way to the finals. Young legs win in today's playoffs. By contrast, 70 of the 93 points scored by Wings players in this year's playoffs were scored by players 30 and older.

They don't have to tear it down and throw a bunch of 20 year olds out there. They do need to get the Homers and the Bertuzzis and the Saleis and the Drapers out and bring in energy guys that actually have energy, and physical players that actually play physically.

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06-29-2011, 12:14 PM
  #29
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Two things im not understanding in this discussion 1) everyone seems to be under the impression that Green is a long term investment. He wont be. My proposal was about having the guy for ONE and ONLY ONE year 2) I clearly stated the price would need to be right to even consider the move so if it involved a major piece then DET obviously walks away.

In regard to the sign and trade, what I meant by that was doing something just like SJ did with Seto. Sign him to a deal and then move him.

@ Sarcastro....I agree DET nees to get younger, and they've started to. I'd be surprised if Holmstrom & Bert are back after next season. But to be fair to Draper, despite his age they guy still has ridiculous wheels.

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06-29-2011, 12:16 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Adityase View Post
Does the NHL do sign and trades?
It's very much frowned upon in most cases. Free agents are less likely to sign with you if there's a chance they'll be traded before they unpack.

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06-29-2011, 01:07 PM
  #31
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We always rely on our old guys bailing us out for yet another season, and another, and then another.

Guess what, it isn't working and we can't hope to get as lucky with the picks as we've been in the past.
Yeah, this longest playoff streak in professional sports thing just isn't working out for me.

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06-29-2011, 01:37 PM
  #32
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Yeah, this longest playoff streak in professional sports thing just isn't working out for me.
do you think thats beacsue we signed aging verterans or pehaps, i dont know having the 2nd best dman of all time play for us for 20 years?

yes if Lidstrom could play another 20 years we would be just fine but that aint gonna happen, you ahve to move forward or you'll just be left standing still

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06-29-2011, 01:39 PM
  #33
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do you think thats beacsue we signed aging verterans or pehaps, i dont know having the 2nd best dman of all time play for us for 20 years?

yes if Lidstrom could play another 20 years we would be just fine but that aint gonna happen, you ahve to move forward or you'll just be left standing still
Both.....bringing in vets like Hull, Drake, and Chelios certainly helped get us those Cups

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06-29-2011, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by WingsOverAvs View Post
Both.....bringing in vets like Hull, Drake, and Chelios certainly helped get us those Cups
personally i would think lidstrom and is style of game(which beacame detroits style of game) along with having datsyuk and zetterberg replace yzerman and shanahan is why we were so dominant for 20 years.

i think the spare parts could have been anyone and it wouldnt have mattered.

i think you guys are giving too much credit to the likes of larry murphy and steve duchene and dallas drake and not enough to lidstrom and rafalski and dats and zetts.

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06-29-2011, 01:45 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
personally i would think lidstrom and is style of game(which beacame detroits style of game) along with having datsyuk and zetterberg replace yzerman and shanahan is why we were so dominant for 20 years.

i think the spare parts could have been anyone and it wouldnt have mattered.

i think you guys are giving too much credit to the likes of larry murphy and steve duchene and dallas drake and not enough to lidstrom and rafalski and dats and zetts.
and I would counter saying the exact opposite from you is true. But if you'd like to dance in circles, I'd prefer to lead

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06-29-2011, 02:10 PM
  #36
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and I would counter saying the exact opposite from you is true. But if you'd like to dance in circles, I'd prefer to lead
hahaha hey man to each his own.

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06-29-2011, 02:17 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
They really need to make the commitment to turning over the forwards next year and into next summer. Look at the model provided by the Bruins and Nucks:

Bruins' top playoff scorers (name/age):
Krejci/24
Bergeron/25
Lucic/22
Marchand/22-23 (may birthday)
Horton/25-26 (may birthday)
Significant contribution from 19 yr old Seguin

Nucks' top 13 playoff scorers were all 30 yrs old or younger.

It's not a coincidence that they made it through the grind all the way to the finals. Young legs win in today's playoffs. By contrast, 70 of the 93 points scored by Wings players in this year's playoffs were scored by players 30 and older.

They don't have to tear it down and throw a bunch of 20 year olds out there. They do need to get the Homers and the Bertuzzis and the Saleis and the Drapers out and bring in energy guys that actually have energy, and physical players that actually play physically.
Age has very little to do with it. The Wings have won several cups with a bunch of 30-somethings.
I wouldn't be opposed to an injection of youth, though

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06-29-2011, 02:35 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Age has very little to do with it. The Wings have won several cups with a bunch of 30-somethings.
I wouldn't be opposed to an injection of youth, though
Age has quite a bit to do with it. Younger legs are more likely to stay fresh through a grueling playoff. Younger bones are less likely to break when slashed and crushed. Younger tendons and ligaments are less likely to strain and snap in high-speed collisions. The league has gotten faster and more violent - older players take more of a beating now than they did 10-15 years ago.

The Wings don't have the luxury of having a dozen hall of famers like they did when they won 3 of their 4 recent Cups, so they can't rely on skill alone to compensate for dead legs. And the most recent team was lucky as hell when it came to major injuries, and was carried by Datsyuk and Zetterberg in their mid-late 20s, not their early 30s.

Like I said, the Wings don't have to throw out all the old folks and bring in teenagers. But the tired legs should be replaced with fresh ones.

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06-29-2011, 02:38 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Age has quite a bit to do with it. Younger legs are more likely to stay fresh through a grueling playoff. Younger bones are less likely to break when slashed and crushed. Younger tendons and ligaments are less likely to strain and snap in high-speed collisions. The league has gotten faster and more violent - older players take more of a beating now than they did 10-15 years ago.

The Wings don't have the luxury of having a dozen hall of famers like they did when they won 3 of their 4 recent Cups, so they can't rely on skill alone to compensate for dead legs. And the most recent team was lucky as hell when it came to major injuries, and was carried by Datsyuk and Zetterberg in their mid-late 20s, not their early 30s.

Like I said, the Wings don't have to throw out all the old folks and bring in teenagers. But the tired legs should be replaced with fresh ones.
i agree, it sure seems some people exchange the words "trading one or two players" with "blwoing up the whole team"

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06-29-2011, 04:39 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by pokerandpucks View Post
Green has concussion issues, big red flag

Smith might be ready for a top 4 job in 12-13, but saying he should be or will be is way premature. People said the same thing about Ericsson, too.

Washington just re-signed Laich, they're not going to be looking for a forward. Kindl+ might get it done, but again, with is concussion issues I'd be leery of trading for him.

Saying he's not bad defensively because of his +/- is inaccurate. +/- is goal differential, not how good you are defensively. If a d-man scores 15 20 points and is -2, and another guy scores 60 and is +10, does that mean the guy who's +10 is better in his own end, or does it just mean he scored a ton and it cancelled out his defensive lapses a bit?
From all accounts, Smith is going to be a stud. Always tough to project, especially on the blue line, so I wouldn't want to give him up in exchange for Green, who has concussion issues.

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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Detroit is always the safe and boring organization in the trades-department.

This would never happen.

We always rely on our old guys bailing us out for yet another season, and another, and then another.

Guess what, it isn't working and we can't hope to get as lucky with the picks as we've been in the past.

We'll never get a new Lidstrom or Datsyuk on the 6th round.

Prepare for another dead wings era, I've said this for a couple of years now - and it will happen unless this organization agrees to get rid of a couple of the older players for picks - and then have a couple of so-so years.

I say.

Let's see what we can get for Hudler, Franzen, Filppula, Cleary, Stuart and Zetterberg (yeah, I said it. The time has come to shop him since his legs and back are killing him).
This argument is old. We have been an "old team" for how many years now? Last I checked we don't pick draftees out of a hat so it's pretty ignorant to claim our drafting is luck. We have a young, improving goalie. We have two stud forwards who have plenty of time to go in Z and Pav. We have a D to build around in a maturing Kronwall.

There will not be a Dead Wings era in Detroit for quite a while.

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06-29-2011, 04:42 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Age has quite a bit to do with it. Younger legs are more likely to stay fresh through a grueling playoff. Younger bones are less likely to break when slashed and crushed. Younger tendons and ligaments are less likely to strain and snap in high-speed collisions. The league has gotten faster and more violent - older players take more of a beating now than they did 10-15 years ago.

The Wings don't have the luxury of having a dozen hall of famers like they did when they won 3 of their 4 recent Cups, so they can't rely on skill alone to compensate for dead legs. And the most recent team was lucky as hell when it came to major injuries, and was carried by Datsyuk and Zetterberg in their mid-late 20s, not their early 30s.

Like I said, the Wings don't have to throw out all the old folks and bring in teenagers. But the tired legs should be replaced with fresh ones.
I can agree with most of this...but did we lose to San Jose because of legs? IMO, the answer is no. We got better as the series went on, and were very, very close to winning it.

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06-29-2011, 04:47 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Age has quite a bit to do with it. Younger legs are more likely to stay fresh through a grueling playoff. Younger bones are less likely to break when slashed and crushed. Younger tendons and ligaments are less likely to strain and snap in high-speed collisions. The league has gotten faster and more violent - older players take more of a beating now than they did 10-15 years ago.

The Wings don't have the luxury of having a dozen hall of famers like they did when they won 3 of their 4 recent Cups, so they can't rely on skill alone to compensate for dead legs. And the most recent team was lucky as hell when it came to major injuries, and was carried by Datsyuk and Zetterberg in their mid-late 20s, not their early 30s.

Like I said, the Wings don't have to throw out all the old folks and bring in teenagers. But the tired legs should be replaced with fresh ones.
Every team is lucky when they win the cup, it's usually the most healthy team who gets there. Game 7 may have been completely different had Kesler, Hamhius, Ehrhoff etc... all been healthy.

IMO chalking everything up to 'running out of gas' is a cop out. You're not replacing the entire team and adding one or two pieces isn't going to put that much fuel in the tank.

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06-29-2011, 04:55 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Age has quite a bit to do with it. Younger legs are more likely to stay fresh through a grueling playoff. Younger bones are less likely to break when slashed and crushed. Younger tendons and ligaments are less likely to strain and snap in high-speed collisions. The league has gotten faster and more violent - older players take more of a beating now than they did 10-15 years ago.

The Wings don't have the luxury of having a dozen hall of famers like they did when they won 3 of their 4 recent Cups, so they can't rely on skill alone to compensate for dead legs. And the most recent team was lucky as hell when it came to major injuries, and was carried by Datsyuk and Zetterberg in their mid-late 20s, not their early 30s.

Like I said, the Wings don't have to throw out all the old folks and bring in teenagers. But the tired legs should be replaced with fresh ones.
Who are the tired legs who were hurt this year?

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06-29-2011, 05:02 PM
  #44
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Against SJ, a lack of size and unhealthy Mule & Raffy were largely responsible....then Bert and Clearly went down and DET was effed

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06-29-2011, 06:07 PM
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I'm not sure if the Red wings brass would be interested in having it come up again, that they traded the draft pick that turned out to be Mike Green for that lazy slug Robert Lang.

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06-29-2011, 06:11 PM
  #46
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I'm not sure if the Red wings brass would be interested in having it come up again, that they traded the draft pick that turned out to be Mike Green for that lazy slug Robert Lang.
Funny thing. I'm quite sure our drafted player would have been someone else. Probably Alex Edler.

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06-29-2011, 06:16 PM
  #47
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Age has very little to do with it. The Wings have won several cups with a bunch of 30-somethings.
I wouldn't be opposed to an injection of youth, though
Yes, but as the team grew older we just kept the old guys around and didn't toss them under the train as they grew useless (see Draper, Maltby etc.).

AND, they game of hockey and especially the NHL, is getting faster and faster - and the older players have a tougher and tougher time hanging with the young stars. Just look at Zetterberg who has lost his legs completely at age...how old is he, 30?


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Originally Posted by WingsSpartan11 View Post

This argument is old. We have been an "old team" for how many years now? Last I checked we don't pick draftees out of a hat so it's pretty ignorant to claim our drafting is luck. We have a young, improving goalie. We have two stud forwards who have plenty of time to go in Z and Pav. We have a D to build around in a maturing Kronwall.

There will not be a Dead Wings era in Detroit for quite a while.
Drafting out of the top two rounds is mostly luck, you can perhaps predict to 25% how a player further down will pan out. And getting the Datyuks and Lidstroms out of round 6-7 is 99% luck. We had better European scouts back then, that isn't the case anymore.

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Who are the tired legs who were hurt this year?
We've had tired and injured players the last few playoffs. We haven't had an extra gear in the playoffs. The teams we beat during the regular season had that extra gear, and outworked us. Purely making the playoffs doesn't matter when you're exhausted when you do. We need players who can handle the 100 games per season and not play on their knees in the second and third rounds. Boston had a young team with great legs and so did Vancouver.

Who were the two slowest players who couldn't find that extra gear in the finals for Vancouver? The oldest supposed-to-make-a-difference forwards on that team, the Sedins.


Bottom line: the NHL playoffs is much faster than it was before, it takes a lot more stamina and endurance to be effective - and Detroit simply doesn't have it.

I know it, you know it.


Shop Zetterberg and see wha we can get for him while he still has some value.

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06-29-2011, 06:30 PM
  #48
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^load of total BS. the age makeup of stanley cup teams is not static. older and younger teams can both win the cup in any given year.

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06-29-2011, 06:33 PM
  #49
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... Just look at Zetterberg who has lost his legs completely at age...how old is he, 30?...
Hank hasn't lost his legs...he has a bad back, but still manages to be pretty damn good....

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06-29-2011, 06:43 PM
  #50
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yeah, it was really the old legs that killed us in the playoffs.

zetterberg, 8 points in 7 games.
datsyuk, 15 points in 11 games.
lidstrom, 8 points in 11 games and a +8.

on the other hand, helm, one of our younger guys with the liveliest legs on the team made little to no impact in the SJ series IMO.

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