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(Post 191) Flyers will NOT submit an offer sheet on Stamkos (Stamkos Part II)

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Old
06-29-2011, 09:00 PM
  #76
mikedifr
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
because pittsburgh and washington are in so much financial turmoil... yet contend every year.*



*it is arguable it is the coach's fault for washington's shortcomings.
Its arguable its the coach.....but its also arguable that it is the supporting cast

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06-29-2011, 09:03 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I dont necessarily care about the picks...he will trade them for something else anyway. Considered about the Cap.....and being able to build the team around him
2011-12

Simmonds (2.00) - Stamkos (8.40) - Voracek (2.50)
Hartnell (4.20) - Briere (6.50) - Wellwood (0.58)
vanRiemsdyk (1.65) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (0.85)
Sestito (0.55) - Betts (0.70) - Holmstrom (0.75)
Rinaldo (0.54)

Pronger (4.92) - Carle (3.44)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (3.20)
Meszaros (4.00) - Gustafsson (0.90)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Bobrovsky (1.75)

TOTAL: 63.78
CAP: 64.30
SPACE: 00.52


2012-13

Hartnell (4.20) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Wellwood (0.58)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
Sestito (0.75) - Holmstrom (0.85) - Nodl (0.85)
Rinaldo (0.54)

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (4.00)
Gustafsson (0.90) - Marshall (0.95)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Bobrovsky (1.75)

TOTAL: 66.30
CAP: 68.80 (guestimated rise of 04.50 due to TV deal)
SPACE: 02.50


2013-14

Couturier (3.11) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemsdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (1.10)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
4th Line + 13th = 3.50~

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
UFA (6.00) - Coburn (4.00)
Third Pairing + 7th = 4.00~

Bryzgalov (5.67)
UFA (0.80)

TOTAL: 67.11
CAP: Whatever
SPACE: A couple mil?


NOTE: The only person I traded was Versteeg.

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06-29-2011, 09:11 PM
  #78
Hockeypete49
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I really don't think that they'll make an offer to Stamkos. I think the Flyers are going to look at shoring up the defense and possibly a forward or two. Holmgren and company need to settle down and just let things calm down a bit. There's no need to continually retool for the sake of retooling. Just find a couple of veterans who will fill in the required roles and go from there.
Well said. Tampa will match anything so why bother? Lets take care of our own and move on.

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06-29-2011, 09:14 PM
  #79
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please leave the roster lineups out of this thread, for ****s sake.

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06-29-2011, 09:15 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
please leave the roster lineups out of this thread, for ****s sake.
I was trying to prove that Stamkos can fit on our roster without cap problems.

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Old
06-29-2011, 09:16 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Well said. Tampa will match anything so why bother? Lets take care of our own and move on.
Why bother? Because we have nothing to lose. Tampa will likely match, but why not make things as difficult for them as possible? Of course, there's always the slim chance he takes our offer and Tampa doesn't match...

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06-29-2011, 09:20 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2011-12

Simmonds (2.00) - Stamkos (8.40) - Voracek (2.50)
Hartnell (4.20) - Briere (6.50) - Wellwood (0.58)
vanRiemsdyk (1.65) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (0.85)
Sestito (0.55) - Betts (0.70) - Holmstrom (0.75)
Rinaldo (0.54)

Pronger (4.92) - Carle (3.44)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (3.20)
Meszaros (4.00) - Gustafsson (0.90)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Bobrovsky (1.75)

TOTAL: 63.78
CAP: 64.30
SPACE: 00.52


2012-13

Hartnell (4.20) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Wellwood (0.58)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
Sestito (0.75) - Holmstrom (0.85) - Nodl (0.85)
Rinaldo (0.54)

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (4.00)
Gustafsson (0.90) - Marshall (0.95)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Bobrovsky (1.75)

TOTAL: 66.30
CAP: 68.80 (guestimated rise of 04.50 due to TV deal)
SPACE: 02.50


2013-14

Couturier (3.11) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemsdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (1.10)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
4th Line + 13th = 3.50~

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
UFA (6.00) - Coburn (4.00)
Third Pairing + 7th = 4.00~

Bryzgalov (5.67)
UFA (0.80)

TOTAL: 67.11
CAP: Whatever
SPACE: A couple mil?


NOTE: The only person I traded was Versteeg.
Well done Chris. When you look at it like that it is definitely doable. But realistically. Don't you think TB will match that amount?

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Old
06-29-2011, 09:24 PM
  #83
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jvr commands more than 3.75 and if he doesn't, well.. that is a bust.

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06-29-2011, 09:30 PM
  #84
mikedifr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2011-12

Simmonds (2.00) - Stamkos (8.40) - Voracek (2.50)
Hartnell (4.20) - Briere (6.50) - Wellwood (0.58)
vanRiemsdyk (1.65) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (0.85)
Sestito (0.55) - Betts (0.70) - Holmstrom (0.75)
Rinaldo (0.54)

Pronger (4.92) - Carle (3.44)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (3.20)
Meszaros (4.00) - Gustafsson (0.90)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Bobrovsky (1.75)

TOTAL: 63.78
CAP: 64.30
SPACE: 00.52


2012-13

Hartnell (4.20) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Wellwood (0.58)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
Sestito (0.75) - Holmstrom (0.85) - Nodl (0.85)
Rinaldo (0.54)

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (4.00)
Gustafsson (0.90) - Marshall (0.95)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Bobrovsky (1.75)

TOTAL: 66.30
CAP: 68.80 (guestimated rise of 04.50 due to TV deal)
SPACE: 02.50


2013-14

Couturier (3.11) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemsdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (1.10)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
4th Line + 13th = 3.50~

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
UFA (6.00) - Coburn (4.00)
Third Pairing + 7th = 4.00~

Bryzgalov (5.67)
UFA (0.80)

TOTAL: 67.11
CAP: Whatever
SPACE: A couple mil?


NOTE: The only person I traded was Versteeg.
1) I never said it couldnt work, I just dont want a repeat of the past couple years where they dont have space to improve the team each year....As you put it above, it goes with essentially the same roster every year. Not very realistic.
2) only $500k in space isnt exactly my desire (not that they wont go that route) I dont want a repeat of having to trade someone for a couple hundred thousand in cap space like with Upshall
3) You are going without Schenn on the roster this year whereas I think it would be a mistake to put him on a horrible Phantoms team. He should be in the NHL. (who knows what they will do)
4) Trade Bob, no need for an expensive backup...that helps a bit.
5) We are assuming Stamkos is at 8.5...the numbers i have seen today are higher.

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06-29-2011, 09:30 PM
  #85
Hockeypete49
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Originally Posted by 46zone View Post
Why bother? Because we have nothing to lose. Tampa will likely match, but why not make things as difficult for them as possible? Of course, there's always the slim chance he takes our offer and Tampa doesn't match...
I know. But why go through the motions if we are just busting balls? Other GMs around the league will see what we are up to and could give us some payback in the future. Plus if we have to wait a week for a answer that could screw us up with any potential free agents we may be interested in. No matter what the dollar amount. I think that they will match. They have to, or that new owner will be run out of town.

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Old
06-29-2011, 09:30 PM
  #86
flyersfan75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2011-12

Simmonds (2.00) - Stamkos (8.40) - Voracek (2.50)
Hartnell (4.20) - Briere (6.50) - Wellwood (0.58)
vanRiemsdyk (1.65) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (0.85)
Sestito (0.55) - Betts (0.70) - Holmstrom (0.75)
Rinaldo (0.54)

Pronger (4.92) - Carle (3.44)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (3.20)
Meszaros (4.00) - Gustafsson (0.90)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Bobrovsky (1.75)

TOTAL: 63.78
CAP: 64.30
SPACE: 00.52


2012-13

Hartnell (4.20) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Wellwood (0.58)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
Sestito (0.75) - Holmstrom (0.85) - Nodl (0.85)
Rinaldo (0.54)

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (4.00)
Gustafsson (0.90) - Marshall (0.95)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Bobrovsky (1.75)

TOTAL: 66.30
CAP: 68.80 (guestimated rise of 04.50 due to TV deal)
SPACE: 02.50


2013-14

Couturier (3.11) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemsdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (1.10)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
4th Line + 13th = 3.50~

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
UFA (6.00) - Coburn (4.00)
Third Pairing + 7th = 4.00~

Bryzgalov (5.67)
UFA (0.80)

TOTAL: 67.11
CAP: Whatever
SPACE: A couple mil?


NOTE: The only person I traded was Versteeg.
I don't understand why you're assuming there's no bonus cushion after next year, unless you have some inside info on the next CBA.

With a new CBA/extension, and the bonus cushion back in place, Schenn/Couterier goes down to 955,00 (or whatever it is) and that frees up ~4.4M right there. Its not as if Schenn and Couterier are gonna be hitting those hard to reach bonus marks (and if they do, all the better, I'll take a hart trophy from either of them!).

Just sayin its even more affordable with the bonus cushion in place...

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06-29-2011, 09:33 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
jvr commands more than 3.75 and if he doesn't, well.. that is a bust.
Depends on what he does this year....if he has a breakout like Giroux did last year, I think he commands closer to 5....Size carries a premium in the NHL.

I hope he does a $3.5 deal like Giroux

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06-29-2011, 09:38 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
1) I never said it couldnt work, I just dont want a repeat of the past couple years where they dont have space to improve the team each year....As you put it above, it goes with essentially the same roster every year. Not very realistic.
The goal is to keep basically the same core roster every year. If it's not realistic then we're screwed anyway. Let's just give up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
2) only $500k in space isnt exactly my desire (not that they wont go that route) I dont want a repeat of having to trade someone for a couple hundred thousand in cap space like with Upshall
It'd be rough this year, but I have to say that our expectations aren't very great this year. Stamkos helps quite a bit, but we're not Cup favorites at the moment.

I'm not saying throw out a year, but this year is going to be the hard part. Moving forward it would get easier and easier as I've demonstrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
3) You are going without Schenn on the roster this year whereas I think it would be a mistake to put him on a horrible Phantoms team. He should be in the NHL. (who knows what they will do)
Last year the Phantoms were missing three things...

1) A real coach who wasn't going to destroy the locker room.
2) A legitimate superstar.

and because they were missing 1 and 2...

3) Confidence.

There is talent and depth in Adirondack. It showed at the end of the season. There's something there to build upon. Schenn can be the guy to help build upon it. I want to see Schenn and Couturier both in the NHL in 2011-12. We're all curious, we're all impatient. Still...why force it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
4) Trade Bob, no need for an expensive backup...that helps a bit.
Whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
5) We are assuming Stamkos is at 8.5...the numbers i have seen today are higher.
Again, then don't sign him. This is all a shot in the dark anyway.

Offer what you can afford. Don't stretch beyond yourself just because you're afraid TBL will match anything lesser.

Don't build your team to their standards; build it to yours. If you can't get Stamkos for what you can afford, then don't get him. Not that big a deal. We start looking toward the future with or without him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan75 View Post
I don't understand why you're assuming there's no bonus cushion after next year, unless you have some inside info on the next CBA.

With a new CBA/extension, and the bonus cushion back in place, Schenn/Couterier goes down to 955,00 (or whatever it is) and that frees up ~4.4M right there. Its not as if Schenn and Couterier are gonna be hitting those hard to reach bonus marks (and if they do, all the better, I'll take a hart trophy from either of them!).

Just sayin its even more affordable with the bonus cushion in place...
Yet another great point.

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Old
06-29-2011, 09:45 PM
  #89
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The goal is to keep basically the same core roster every year. If it's not realistic then we're screwed anyway. Let's just give up.
I am fine with keeping the same core together, but what from Homer's regime gives you any indication that he will do that?


Quote:
It'd be rough this year, but I have to say that our expectations aren't very great this year. Stamkos helps quite a bit, but we're not Cup favorites at the moment.

I'm not saying throw out a year, but this year is going to be the hard part. Moving forward it would get easier and easier as I've demonstrated.
Honestly, if they get Stamkos, I think its Cup or bust this year.....not that they wont have a chance down the line. I am not quite sure how many more runs Pronger and Timonen have in them.


Quote:
Last year the Phantoms were missing three things...

1) A real coach who wasn't going to destroy the locker room.
2) A legitimate superstar.

and because they were missing 1 and 2...

3) Confidence.

There is talent and depth in Adirondack. It showed at the end of the season. There's something there to build upon. Schenn can be the guy to help build upon it. I want to see Schenn and Couturier both in the NHL in 2011-12. We're all curious, we're all impatient. Still...why force it?
I thought Maroon and his partying destroyed the lockerroom???

Agreed....but if he is too good for the AHL, that doesnt help him. He only had a taste, but was already putting up a PPG. Its a waste keeping him down there IMO if he is ready for the NHL. He sounds like he at the same point in his career as Richards when he came up.


Quote:
Again, then don't sign him. This is all a shot in the dark anyway.

Offer what you can afford. Don't stretch beyond yourself just because you're afraid TBL will match anything lesser.

Don't build your team to their standards; build it to yours. If you can't get Stamkos for what you can afford, then don't get him. Not that big a deal. We start looking toward the future with or without him.
We agree here....just not sure what Homer is thinking.

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06-29-2011, 09:46 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by flyersfan75 View Post
I don't understand why you're assuming there's no bonus cushion after next year, unless you have some inside info on the next CBA.

With a new CBA/extension, and the bonus cushion back in place, Schenn/Couterier goes down to 955,00 (or whatever it is) and that frees up ~4.4M right there. Its not as if Schenn and Couterier are gonna be hitting those hard to reach bonus marks (and if they do, all the better, I'll take a hart trophy from either of them!).

Just sayin its even more affordable with the bonus cushion in place...
Of course it would be more affordable, its a good point... but you cant plan for that. That would be like me guying a house based on a raise I MIGHT get next summer.

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06-29-2011, 10:39 PM
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Another interesting game of chicken could be developing...

Just throwing this out there: what if the Flyers are able to wait until after July 1st to formally send Stamkos the offer sheet, perhaps well after? Suppose he is still at an impasse with Tampa Bay and mulling over offers from a whole bunch of teams before deciding which one to sign. This is advantageous for not just the Flyers, but all of Stamkos' potential suitors, as they are able to monitor the free agent market before deciding whether or not to dive in on that action or dive in on Stamkos. It doesn't give you flexibility per se (eventually you have to lock into one or the other), but it does give you options. It's possible that the Stamkos saga doesn't conclude as rapidly we would have thought.


Last edited by Damaged Goods: 06-30-2011 at 12:17 AM.
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06-29-2011, 10:48 PM
  #92
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I would rather offersheet a young defenseman who can replace Timonen then give Stamkos a billion dollars and kill the depth on this team.
forget Stamkos. go fill the other needs this team has like a defensive minded center, another bottom 6 winger and a 7th defenseman.
Stamkos has too many long term ramifications. Especially at 10 million and for reasons I explained earlier on why you dont put that offersheet out.

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06-29-2011, 10:52 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I would rather offersheet a young defenseman who can replace Timonen then give Stamkos a billion dollars and kill the depth on this team.
forget Stamkos. go fill the other needs this team has like a defensive minded center, another bottom 6 winger and a 7th defenseman.
Stamkos has too many long term ramifications. Especially at 10 million and for reasons I explained earlier on why you dont put that offersheet out.
Keith Yandle, please. Dude's a ****ing stud and is stuck in Phoenix. Unfortunately we don't have the picks to make it happen, unless we offer $7.5+ million, and that's not going to happen.

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06-29-2011, 11:10 PM
  #94
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Keith Yandle, please. Dude's a ****ing stud and is stuck in Phoenix. Unfortunately we don't have the picks to make it happen, unless we offer $7.5+ million, and that's not going to happen.
It doesn't matter even if we did have the picks, because Phoenix can match, and wouldn't give Yandle up for anything short of four 1sts.

The only time an offer sheet will ever be in play is if some combination of the following factors exist:
A. The team with the rights to the player is in financial trouble
B. The team with the rights to the player doesn't have cap room
C. The player is one who could reasonably command a top salary (so that the compensation would be 4 1st rounders)
D. The team submitting the offer sheet is willing to grossly overpay

This is the reason why there are so few offer sheets actually submitted. The lower tender levels don't provide a big enough cap hit, or enough in terms of draft pick compensation for a team to be willing to give up their star player (so why bother submitting?). I mean you could submit it just to mess with a team and drive up the price, but in the long run, all that does is mean all the owners in the NHL have less cap space and are giving more $$$ to players, so there's an unwritten rule that you don't do this just to drive up the price.

The only situation where it's logical to submit an offer sheet is with a top 5 type player (like Stamkos).

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06-29-2011, 11:13 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post

2013-14

Couturier (3.11) - Stamkos (8.40) - Briere (6.50)
vanRiemsdyk (3.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Nodl (1.10)
Simmonds (2.00) - Schenn (3.11) - Voracek (2.50)
4th Line + 13th = 3.50~

Pronger (4.92) - Meszaros (4.00)
UFA (6.00) - Coburn (4.00)
Third Pairing + 7th = 4.00~

Bryzgalov (5.67)
UFA (0.80)

TOTAL: 67.11
CAP: Whatever
SPACE: A couple mil?


NOTE: The only person I traded was Versteeg.
Your Couturier number is a little high, too. Last year, the 7th pick (one slot above Couturier) (Jeff Skinner) signed for a $1.4M per year cap hit (that's the max w/ all bonuses included). For the 8th pick in 2011, the cap hit should be no more than $1.5M or $1.6M... nowhere near the $3.11M cap hit you have there.

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06-29-2011, 11:14 PM
  #96
Yoshimitsu
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I may be starstruck, but I think that if you have the chance to acquire a player of his caliber, you do it. He is a generational talent.

With that being said I don't expect it to actually happen.

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06-29-2011, 11:23 PM
  #97
CS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Your Couturier number is a little high, too. Last year, the 7th pick (one slot above Couturier) (Jeff Skinner) signed for a $1.4M per year cap hit (that's the max w/ all bonuses included). For the 8th pick in 2011, the cap hit should be no more than $1.5M or $1.6M... nowhere near the $3.11M cap hit you have there.
If he plays to his capabilities in the QMJHL before we sign him, then I guarantee you he's going to want top draft choice bonuses.

Like someone else said though, hopefully we get some bonus relief in the future.

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06-29-2011, 11:45 PM
  #98
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I hope that TO signs him to an OS and forces TB to accept it screwig them cap-wise like when they had Vinnie and Brad on long, expensive contracts.


Me. I want us to sign Bogosian to a 4 year, 4.5 mil/per OS. It would cost us a 1st and 3rd next year if Win doesn't match/accept and I can deal with Bogo for that price. Then we can trade one of Carle or Meszaros (Carle would be my choice but if Mesz could now return a 1st in 2012 then I'd trade him and keep Carle).


Last edited by phlocky: 06-29-2011 at 11:55 PM.
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06-29-2011, 11:53 PM
  #99
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Do it! I want to see some fire works, it is Canada day after all

I think for a team like philly, it is so worth it it's not funny. The picks will be 25+.

Also, what the **** would anyone expect yzerman to say? They lost 30 million this year, 11 million for them is easier said then done.

They prob will do it, but so what? You hurt your competition!!!

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06-29-2011, 11:56 PM
  #100
WeekendAtBernies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If he plays to his capabilities in the QMJHL before we sign him, then I guarantee you he's going to want top draft choice bonuses.

Like someone else said though, hopefully we get some bonus relief in the future.
Which is exactly why I would sign Couturier now... Why not?

The slide rule still gives you 2 full years to slide his contract back, where's the downside of signing the kid now?

You get him for a lower cap hit like the Hurricanes did w/ Skinner... pay him his signing bonus up front now and then that's even more $$$ that comes off your cap when you slide his contract back.

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