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Old
10-18-2003, 11:32 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by BrindA17
LOL! Absolutely ridiculous. I don't care how old Amonte is or if he's on the downslope of his career, he's still better than Williams is and ever will be.
You're the ridiculous one. You're so sickly obsessed with being as anti Justin Williams as possible, and for the life of me I can't understand why. You're the only one who refuses to acknowledge the ability level of Justin Williams, and the fact that he's been one of the best Flyer forwards for the last few seasons, not to mention he's probably been the best Flyer player other than Jeff Hackett to start this year. It's also pretty damn brazen to predict that "Amonte is better than Williams is or ever will be."

Anyway, Gagne isn't going anywhere. He's the future of the Flyers offense and just because he hasn't tore it up after three games doesn't mean he should be traded. And rationalizing trading Gagne by saying he is too soft to play for the Flyers is absurd-it's skill and teamwork that wins Stanley Cups not brute force. You can't beat your opponents into submission anymore, it's 2003 not 1975.

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10-18-2003, 12:26 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
Anyway, Gagne isn't going anywhere. He's the future of the Flyers offense and just because he hasn't tore it up after three games doesn't mean he should be traded. And rationalizing trading Gagne by saying he is too soft to play for the Flyers is absurd-it's skill and teamwork that wins Stanley Cups not brute force. You can't beat your opponents into submission anymore, it's 2003 not 1975.
agreed. on Williams too.


well I for one don't want to trade Gagne now and I know that Cross Out The Eyes put some thought into it but I really don't like any of the trade proposals that were mentioned.

Gagne got through his first 3 seasons fine, averaging 76 games per season and scoring 80 goals in that span. his point/goal totals went up every year and he made the allstar and Olympic teams by 22yrs of age. now I know he's had 2 bad seasons in a row (1yr seperated shoulder -last year hyrnia) but I am not willing to give up on him yet, especially for the players that were mentioned above(excluding Gaborik,Iginla). Gagne has the skills to be a special player and I think that if Clarke traded him now, not only would he not get good value in return but would also look very foolish in the end.

Gagne scored 33 goals as a 22yr old and isn't even close to hitting his prime yet to give up him now because he is supposedly soft or injury prone, could turn into a big mistake.

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Old
10-18-2003, 12:30 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel
I'm fine with hanging on to Gagne, but I am sort of worried that he will never return to form and we won't be able to fetch anything for him in a trade at that point. I like this trade:

To Montreal:

Simon Gagne, Dennis Seidenberg

To Philly:

Andrei Kastitsyn, Niklas Sundstrom


Maybe throw in a draft pick or something. Montreal is in love with Simon Gagne. Home town kid. Sundstrom is a good player and Kastitsyn is going to be a star.
What? Gagne and Seidenberg for nothing? You must be crazy.

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10-18-2003, 12:49 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Diesel
I'm fine with hanging on to Gagne, but I am sort of worried that he will never return to form and we won't be able to fetch anything for him in a trade at that point. I like this trade:

To Montreal:

Simon Gagne, Dennis Seidenberg

To Philly:

Andrei Kastitsyn, Niklas Sundstrom


Maybe throw in a draft pick or something. Montreal is in love with Simon Gagne. Home town kid. Sundstrom is a good player and Kastitsyn is going to be a star.
This is a joke, right? Niklas Sundstrom has very little value and zero value, imo, to the flyers. So it's basically Gagne and Seidenberg for the #10 pick. What? Kastitsyn is a high risk, high reward player. His upside, imo, is somewhere near that of Gagne's. His downside is a non-NHL'er. See the problem there. That's not even including Seidenberg, who I believe will be a top 4 NHL defenseman. I wouldn't deal Gagne for that package plus a 1st.

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Old
10-18-2003, 12:53 PM
  #30
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I see absolutely no need to trade Gagne at this point and time, or in the near future.

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Old
10-18-2003, 12:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by JDB3939
I'd love to throw Pittsburgh's name into the Gagne sweepstakes, but we have nothing of value we would be willing to trade that would attract any interest from the Flyers.
How about Gagne for the Pen's 2004 1st rounder?

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Old
10-18-2003, 01:09 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whinks
Robert Nilsson
oh the Isles would be all over that deal if they felt Gagne's salary was doable.

Is Gagne arbitration eligible next summer?

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Old
10-18-2003, 01:13 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW
oh the Isles would be all over that deal if they felt Gagne's salary was doable.

Is Gagne arbitration eligible next summer?
But the Flyers wouldn't. That deal is not even close. I don't think the Isles have the young star that the flyers would want. Maybe a deal for Niinimaa and a decent prospect, but I wouldn't do that. The flyers would want to package Gagne for someone with more value, the Isles don't have that except possibly in goal, there's a thought. If the flyers wanted Nillson, they would drafted him at 11.

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10-18-2003, 01:25 PM
  #34
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How about Gagne to Colorado? I'm thinking the following:

To Colorado: Simon Gagne, Dennis Seidenberg, Jeff Woywitka
To Philadelphia: Alex Tanguay, Derek Morris, Phillipe Sauve

I know that some might freak out about giving up Woywitka and Seidenberg, but I think Morris would look really good on our blue line. We also get a left winger who can score (I don't believe the crap about Tanguay leeching off people.......if you have talent, you're gonna score). As well, we get a goalie who is pretty much ready to join the big time and would be nothing but a good addition to the organization. Colorado gets two defensemen who will be valued additons for awhile. As well, Gagne gets a much needed change of scenery. Sorry, but as long as Hitchcock won't be flexible with his system, it won't work for Gagne here.

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Old
10-18-2003, 01:34 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
As well, Gagne gets a much needed change of scenery. Sorry, but as long as Hitchcock won't be flexible with his system, it won't work for Gagne here.
Gagne has played 3 games while healthy since Hitchcock has been the coach. he was injured all year last year. Goal scorers can score goals under any system.

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Old
10-18-2003, 10:26 PM
  #36
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I put this on the Trade rumor board as well, but what about

Gagne
Low pick

for

Luongo

Just a thought. No need to be hostile.

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Old
10-18-2003, 11:24 PM
  #37
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I wish that was possible.

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Old
10-19-2003, 06:09 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
You're the ridiculous one. You're so sickly obsessed with being as anti Justin Williams as possible, and for the life of me I can't understand why. You're the only one who refuses to acknowledge the ability level of Justin Williams, and the fact that he's been one of the best Flyer forwards for the last few seasons, not to mention he's probably been the best Flyer player other than Jeff Hackett to start this year. It's also pretty damn brazen to predict that "Amonte is better than Williams is or ever will be."
If you think for one second that Williams will have a career close to Amonte's, you're insane. Amonte has a rare scoring touch. This is something that cannot be tought or gained by just working hard. Some players might have more skill in skating or puckhandling, but guys like LeClair and Amonte just score. To think that Williams will score 40 goals one day is, and I'll say it again, RIDICULOUS.

Conclusion: Amonte > Williams

I acknowledge the ability of Justin Williams. He's quick, elusive, and does work his ass off. But, these are not rare qualities. They can be found in Lapointe, Kent Manderville, etc (I'm NOT comparing Williams to these guys, I'm just saying that they work hard and are rather speedy skaters). What makes a player standout as a top-line guy is his ability to put the puck in the net. And like I said, some people have a natural, god-given advantage over others. Amonte is a better scorer than Williams, and you know that.

I don't think Williams is worthless or the worst guy on the roster. But I think his talents would be best utilized on the 3rd line, where he's not expected to score over 20 goals. Maybe he'll play the 3rd line and start to score, it happens. Look at Handzus, for example. But for now, I want Amonte on my top line.

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Old
10-19-2003, 06:17 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Out The Eyes
5. La Kings

Who knows??

LA gets Simon Gagne
Philly gets Alexander Frolov

Just trust me, Frolov is going to be a better player than Simon Gagne sooner or later, and maybe very sooner.

This deal might be a bit risky, and not as good (especially right away) as the others, but I'd do this one straight up just because I really think Frolov is going to be a great hockey player in the near future.
No way La does this,not in a million years.

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Old
10-19-2003, 06:24 AM
  #40
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Makes no sense to trade Simon at this stage of his career. However he has the privilege of being on my fantasy teams bench until he starts scoring.

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Old
10-19-2003, 08:25 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindA17
Amonte has a rare scoring touch. This is something that cannot be tought or gained by just working hard. Some players might have more skill in skating or puckhandling, but guys like LeClair and Amonte just score.

Conclusion: Amonte > Williams
Sorry, but Williams is better than Amonte, by far, right now. Amonte's coasting out the end of his career and we can expect from him what we've been getting. Not much, and surely not $5 million/yr worth.

Amonte's the most overrated, overpaid, underproductive player on the team - and that's saying something when you're talking about the Flyers.

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Old
10-19-2003, 09:04 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Sorry, but Williams is better than Amonte, by far, right now.

Quote:
Amonte's the most overrated, overpaid, underproductive player on the team - and that's saying something when you're talking about the Flyers.
No....
Most overrated: Keith Primeau
Most overpaid: John LeClair
Most Underproductive: Simon Gagne

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Old
10-19-2003, 12:46 PM
  #43
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Amonte has played well the shots just haven't gone in. He's going to go on a hot streak real soon.

Williams has been great all season. Looks like he may reach his potential.

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Old
10-19-2003, 01:10 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindA17
If you think for one second that Williams will have a career close to Amonte's, you're insane. Amonte has a rare scoring touch. This is something that cannot be tought or gained by just working hard. Some players might have more skill in skating or puckhandling, but guys like LeClair and Amonte just score. To think that Williams will score 40 goals one day is, and I'll say it again, RIDICULOUS.

Conclusion: Amonte > Williams

I acknowledge the ability of Justin Williams. He's quick, elusive, and does work his ass off. But, these are not rare qualities. They can be found in Lapointe, Kent Manderville, etc (I'm NOT comparing Williams to these guys, I'm just saying that they work hard and are rather speedy skaters). What makes a player standout as a top-line guy is his ability to put the puck in the net. And like I said, some people have a natural, god-given advantage over others. Amonte is a better scorer than Williams, and you know that.

I don't think Williams is worthless or the worst guy on the roster. But I think his talents would be best utilized on the 3rd line, where he's not expected to score over 20 goals. Maybe he'll play the 3rd line and start to score, it happens. Look at Handzus, for example. But for now, I want Amonte on my top line.
At this point in their careers, the scoring ability is much, much closer than you want to admit it is. Tony Amonte demonstrated throughout most of last regular season, the playoffs, and the start of this season that his accuracy and touch has gone down the drain. In just ONE game this season, I counted THREE times where Amonte had missed an open net. He's on the downside of his career and isn't the same player he used the be and you're blind if you can't recognize that.

Justin Williams on the other hand, is on the upswing of his career. He's got speed, he works hard, reads the plays well, and his shooting appears to be more accurate than Tony Amonte's at this point in their careers. Add to that the fact that Justin Williams is a far better all-around player and it's pretty obvious who deserves to be on the higher line.

Scoring goals isn't just about who has the most natural talent either. If that was the case, Pavel Brendl would score 50 goals every year. Speaking of Pavel Brendl, I believe it was me who told you quite a few months ago that Brendl was lazy and a bust and that Williams was the better player. You argued me persistently pleading that Brendl's natural talent would outweigh Williams skills-we know how that turned out.

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Old
10-19-2003, 01:50 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Out The Eyes

1. Phoenix Coyotes

I am sure Gretzky would love to have him, and Phoenix and Philly always trade.

Phoenix gets Simon Gagne
Philly gets Shane Doan

Phoenix gets Simon Gagne
Philly gets Ladislav Nagy
Idea 1: Uhh, no? How can you even suggest trading away your captain you just named, agrueably the face of the organisation? Gagne is a soft talented winger, you dont trade guys like Doan for him.

Idea 2: A Wash, although Nagy will be much better(consistant), since they are the same age and hes working with less talent. Also an injury questionmark with Gagne.

To suggest Phoenix would do either of the deals, is a dream. To go one step further and say WE have to throw more in, is insane.

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Old
10-19-2003, 02:02 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by XavierX
Idea 1: Uhh, no? How can you even suggest trading away your captain you just named, agrueably the face of the organisation? Gagne is a soft talented winger, you dont trade guys like Doan for him.

Idea 2: A Wash, although Nagy will be much better(consistant), since they are the same age and hes working with less talent. Also an injury questionmark with Gagne.

To suggest Phoenix would do either of the deals, is a dream. To go one step further and say WE have to throw more in, is insane.
Hate to burst your bubble but Gagne is easily the best player in these deals and I would do neither of them.

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