HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

(Post 191) Flyers will NOT submit an offer sheet on Stamkos (Stamkos Part II)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-30-2011, 09:20 AM
  #151
might2mash
Post-apocalyptic
 
might2mash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Bend
Country: United States
Posts: 4,616
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to might2mash
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
If Couturier makes the roster it's because he's made the roster. You don't hold a kid back because of cap concerns if he's ready.
You also don't assume anything and still need to fill out the roster with veterans so the guy has to actually earn that spot. I don't see room for Couturier even now. He needs to "make the roster" as in be a contributing player that is worth starting the clock on, not just to get him ice time when he hasn't played a single professional game.

might2mash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 09:23 AM
  #152
xifentoozlerix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: staten island
Posts: 775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Long-time reader, first-time poster here...

What do we think the chances are that all of this very public speculation is simply designed to drive up Stamkos's contract with TB? If the Flyers were actually intent on getting him through an OS, wouldn't it be more prudent to be a little less leaky with potential terms?

Certainly the prospect of a 12/115 offer must give Stamkos and co. pause, but doesn't the absence of an actual offer sheet and the very public wavering / indecision seem more likely to drive TB's offer up ahead of July 1 than delay a resolution?

In other words, if the Flyers were really serious about trying to acquire Stamkos, wouldn't all of this be a little less public?
I would tend to agree, but it only takes one person with loose lips from within the organization to start a cavalcade of rumors.

Even if nobody within the Flyers organization said anything you would see Stamkos to Philly rumors pop up here and there. It is just what happens when a player like that is involved in ANY sort of rumors. Flyers always are kicking tires and have money in the bank. It also could be Stamkos agent/people driving up the price on TBL.

xifentoozlerix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 09:24 AM
  #153
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,002
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah... Yes, you hold the kid back due to cap concerns if it makes the team better.
I'm not sure we're disagreeing.

If he makes the roster, it's because he's ready to be an impact player, meaning he'll make the team better. You deal with the cap accordingly.

I'm not talking about him not looking out of place on the third line a la JVR.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 09:36 AM
  #154
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,002
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
You also don't assume anything and still need to fill out the roster with veterans so the guy has to actually earn that spot. I don't see room for Couturier even now. He needs to "make the roster" as in be a contributing player that is worth starting the clock on, not just to get him ice time when he hasn't played a single professional game.
We're essentially in agreement.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 09:37 AM
  #155
EasyMac
Registered User
 
EasyMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kingston
Country: Canada
Posts: 834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiD View Post
6+M for two rookies?? typical Holmgren cap management...
There is no guarantee that Couturier makes 3 million+. Jeff Skinner, the 7th overall pick last year, only has a cap hit of 1.4 million. Plus when they signed JVR, they also gave him a much lower bonus package then most players drafted in the top 3 get. I would be surprised if Couturier's cap hit was more then 1.5 (if he is actually signed this summer).

EasyMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 09:52 AM
  #156
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
I would tend to agree, but it only takes one person with loose lips from within the organization to start a cavalcade of rumors.

Even if nobody within the Flyers organization said anything you would see Stamkos to Philly rumors pop up here and there. It is just what happens when a player like that is involved in ANY sort of rumors. Flyers always are kicking tires and have money in the bank. It also could be Stamkos agent/people driving up the price on TBL.
No doubt about the rumors--and I've spent three days hitting "refresh" on every website that might have a wiff of an actual move--but I can't help but wonder whether the 12/115 is less the product of "loose lips" or a great reporting scoop than an intentional move designed to force TB to sign an out-of-wack deal. After all, the Flyers could have simply submitted the OS Tuesday night, which would have had the same effect on the negotiations (Stamkos camp takes it to Yzerman and says "match this or else he'll sign," a la Carter).

The leaks (if they are more than idle speculation) seem designed to get the leverage of a potential offer sheet without the risk that TB sits on a signed OS for a week before matching, leaving the Flyers with little chance to sure up other areas of the roster, IMO.

Jack de la Hoya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 09:55 AM
  #157
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
I'm not sure we're disagreeing.

If he makes the roster, it's because he's ready to be an impact player, meaning he'll make the team better. You deal with the cap accordingly.

I'm not talking about him not looking out of place on the third line a la JVR.
How are you going to know that 9 games into the season?

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:04 AM
  #158
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
Well the good thing is we don't have a third line for him to look out of place on.

Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:07 AM
  #159
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,002
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
How are you going to know that 9 games into the season?
I'm going to exaggerate here to prove a point, so bear with me.

Say the kid's last name wasn't Couturier. Say it was Crosby or Ovechkin.

Are you going to keep them off the roster based upon them being rookies? No, you are going to make a decision based on their play.

One can usually tell pretty quickly if a kid is ready to be an impact player. If he's makes the roster it's because he's ready to make the roster, not because you are rushing him.

This is more than likely moot because I'd be very surprised to see the kid make the team. I think the key difference between you and I is that you are going to go into September dead set against the kid making the team because of cap considerations, whereas I'll wait to see what he does before I make that sort of determination.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:12 AM
  #160
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
I'm going to exaggerate here to prove a point, so bear with me.

Say the kid's last name wasn't Couturier. Say it was Crosby or Ovechkin.

Are you going to keep them off the roster based upon them being rookies? No, you are going to make a decision based on their play.

One can usually tell pretty quickly if a kid is ready to be an impact player. If he's makes the roster it's because he's ready to make the roster, not because you are rushing him.

This is more than likely moot because I'd be very surprised to see the kid make the team. I think the key difference between you and I is that you are going to go into September dead set against the kid making the team because of cap considerations, whereas I'll wait to see what he does before I make that sort of determination.
Talk to me about the first 20 games of JVRs rookie year, and then the next 60.

And comparing him to Crosby/Ovechkin is a dead letter. Not only are they both better, they were also on crappy teams as rookies.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:15 AM
  #161
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,490
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
How are you going to know that 9 games into the season?
Just a guess, but I'm not really sure. Do the players just show up October 6th in Boston after the offseason?

I would think, at least some of the players would like to get together and have a couple practices, maybe some scrimmages against other NHL players. I don't know, something like the NFL, NBA and MLB do before a season.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:17 AM
  #162
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Just a guess, but I'm not really sure. Do the players just show up October 6th in Boston after the offseason?

I would think, at least some of the players would like to get together and have a couple practices, maybe some scrimmages against other NHL players. I don't know, something like the NFL, NBA and MLB do before a season.
That tells you squat about whether a kid is ready for a NHL season.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:25 AM
  #163
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,002
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Talk to me about the first 20 games of JVRs rookie year, and then the next 60.

And comparing him to Crosby/Ovechkin is a dead letter. Not only are they both better, they were also on crappy teams as rookies.
As I've already said, I'd be looking for a MUCH higher level of play than we even saw out of JVR for those first 20 games.

And I didn't compare him to Crosby or Ovechkin and I certainly wasn't talking about their specific rookie years, I just used them to illustrate the point that you can't simply deny a rookie because he's a rookie.

If Couturier shows up and plays like Crosby or Ovechkin right off the bat, you aren't sending him back to juniors. Now it's so unlikely that he plays that well that any attempt to put it into words is underwhelming, but you get the idea. If he comes in and blows the doors off the place, you don't deny him. That's all.

All that said, I fully expect him to see him back in juniors come October.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:31 AM
  #164
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
As I've already said, I'd be looking for a MUCH higher level of play than we even saw out of JVR for those first 20 games.

And I didn't compare him to Crosby or Ovechkin and I certainly wasn't talking about their specific rookie years, I just used them to illustrate the point that you can't simply deny a rookie because he's a rookie.

If Couturier shows up and plays like Crosby or Ovechkin right off the bat, you aren't sending him back to juniors. Now it's so unlikely that he plays that well that any attempt to put it into words is underwhelming, but you get the idea. If he comes in and blows the doors off the place, you don't deny him. That's all.

All that said, I fully expect him to see him back in juniors come October.
Much higher than JVR?

In his first 21 games, JVR was 6-13-19 and +7. So, pacing to 23-51-74 and +27. After 21 games, he was the front runner for the Calder.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:32 AM
  #165
BleedOrange
BuildThroughTheDraft
 
BleedOrange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Oshawa Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,055
vCash: 500
Flyers lie low, kick around possible offer sheet to Stamkos

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...ef=twitter.com


Tomorrow at noon should be interesting do they or dont they?

If Yzerman can really match any deal why didnt he sign stamkos over a month ago?

Do any of you really think there is going to be some sort of mad free agent dash to sign Michael Ryder, Jamie Langenbrunner, Erik Cole or John Madden tomorrow? NOT....

BleedOrange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 10:35 AM
  #166
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedorange View Post
Flyers lie low, kick around possible offer sheet to Stamkos

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...ef=twitter.com


Tomorrow at noon should be interesting do they or dont they?

If Yzerman can really match any deal why didnt he sign stamkos over a month ago?

Do any of you really think there is going to be some sort of mad free agent dash to sign Michael Ryder, Jamie Langenbrunner, Erik Cole or John Madden tomorrow? NOT....
Why would Yzerman offer the high contract before he is forced to? If you are willing to match anything, then you are under no pressure to get it done. The offer sheet ends it for you.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:00 AM
  #167
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 31,447
vCash: 50
the Lightning are still 27 million under the floor arent they?
I do agree that TB should not be in any hurry to get Stamkos signed. Also I would imagine Stamkos is going to see what TB is going to do to see if they are still commited to contend by spending money and get better. I think he wants to see what Yzerman will do building the team going forward before taking any kind of "home town discount".
I am still betting we dont sign Stamkos to an offersheet.

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:00 AM
  #168
might2mash
Post-apocalyptic
 
might2mash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Bend
Country: United States
Posts: 4,616
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to might2mash
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That tells you squat about whether a kid is ready for a NHL season.
Seriously, lots of kids show flashes of brilliance in the pre-season, but you won't be able to if a guy can handle the physical rigors of the regular season NHL until it's too late to send him back to juniors. If you want to give him a taste and that's all, that's one thing. But this season is not one for a trial by fire for a lean 18 year old.

might2mash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:11 AM
  #169
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
I don't see what the argument is about. The Flyers clearly have no problem sending a kid back to junior well after his nine games. No issue aside from burning a year of control.

Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:12 AM
  #170
Hollywood Couturier
Moderator
 
Hollywood Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 19,957
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
the Lightning are still 27 million under the floor arent they
The Lightning currently have $46M committed to 17 players (9 Forwards /7 D-Men/1 Goalie) They have $18M in cap space.

__________________

"I Came Here To Bury Caesar, Not Praise Him" - Roy Halladay
Hollywood Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:16 AM
  #171
might2mash
Post-apocalyptic
 
might2mash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Bend
Country: United States
Posts: 4,616
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to might2mash
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
I don't see what the argument is about. The Flyers clearly have no problem sending a kid back to junior well after his nine games. No issue aside from burning a year of control.
Yeah, but why do that when you could not?

might2mash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:17 AM
  #172
IrishSniper87
Registered User
 
IrishSniper87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Media, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 13,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
The Lightning currently have $46M committed to 17 players (9 Forwards /7 D-Men/1 Goalie) They have $18M in cap space.
Problem with the Lightning is not cap, it's real world dollars.

They likely will be under the cap this season, all that matters is that they hit the cap floor.

IrishSniper87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:20 AM
  #173
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
Yeah, but why do that when you could not?
Iunno, ask Luca Sbisa.

Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:21 AM
  #174
Hollywood Couturier
Moderator
 
Hollywood Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 19,957
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Problem with the Lightning is not cap, it's real world dollars.

They likely will be under the cap this season, all that matters is that they hit the cap floor.
I'm definitely aware of that. Just wanted to point out that they're no where near $27M under the Floor.

Lecavalier, St. Louis, and Malone are getting paid $21M alone this year in salary (not cap hit).

Hollywood Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-30-2011, 11:32 AM
  #175
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 31,447
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
The Lightning currently have $46M committed to 17 players (9 Forwards /7 D-Men/1 Goalie) They have $18M in cap space.
ok, so my number was off. this includes the re-signing of Hall and Roloson. I must of misread something somewhere. Could of sworn they were well under the floor. Probably should of rechecked capgeek or nhlnumbers before posting that.

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:31 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.